LGS closed

[Rye Miles #13621]

I went by one of the LGS in my area, I haven’t been there in about a month. Sign says Closed permanently! I was pretty friendly with the guys that worked there and they gave me no indication they were closing. Maybe they didn’t know. The FFL owner also owned the small strip shopping center that it was in. There’s 7 businesses. I bought quite a few things there over the years including a few guns. Sad! 

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

Always hate when the small business owner closes shop. 

[Eyesa Horg]

The one closest to me is closing the beginning of the year. She said 60 years is enough. Can't say I blame her, but will miss the convenience.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Sad. But I’m afraid the LGS model, like the neighborhood grocer and hardware store, has become an anachronism in today’s economy. They have to compete with the big box stores and online sales and I doubt profit margins are enough to keep the doors open. I imagine the effort and costs of LGS business far exceed the other properties he owns. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

14 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Sad. But I’m afraid the LGS model, like the neighborhood grocer and hardware store, has become an anachronism in today’s economy. They have to compete with the big box stores and online sales and I doubt profit margins are enough to keep the doors open. I imagine the effort and costs of LGS business far exceed the other properties he owns. 

Good point, the only gun stores that seem to be doing okay are the ones with shooting ranges. 

[Henry T Harrison]

It’s hard to compete when the big box stores can buy them for less than the lgs can sell them for 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

 Going into a LGS once a week, or once a month, and talking to the folks you have known for years, and trusting them, and now they are no longer there is very sad.  Pretty soon it will be just Big Box Stores where someone who last week was in the shoe dept. is now in the firearms dept. who doesn't know a Glock from a Colt.

[Cypress Sun]

 

Don't forget that almost all of the smaller gun stores have been harassed, hounded and conspicuously singled out for "audits" by BATF for the last three years also.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I live 5 miles from a gun shop/range in fact I used to work there part time. There’s 3 ither gun shop /ranges within 25- 30 miles of here. They’re doing okay. Like I said the ranges are keeping them open. There’s 3 big box stores within 25 miles of here as well. Cabelas and another big local company. The other gun shops are hurting though.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Good point, the only gun stores that seem to be doing okay are the ones with shooting ranges. 

Actually, last week a friend and I were going to go to a local shooting range. There is a LGS connected to it but not affiliated with it. We walked up to the door only to find it chained shut. We went into the gun store, and they said that they had come to open up a while back only to find the same thing. They said that they were surprised too. They are going to take it over, but it's going to be a few months before they get it open.

[Sixgun Seamus]

We had a LGS close a couple of years ago that was a major supporter and sponsor of one of our SASS clubs. I was talking with the owner at one of our in store SASS promotions. He said he was reaching retirement age and someone offered him a boatload of money for the property. I was in the store weekly and bought quite a few guns there including my first SASS rifle. 

[bgavin]

My LGS is on the way out as well.
When I picked up my Pointman, the counter man said the owner is battling cancer.

My LGS appears to make all their money on FFL transactions, as the lobby is usually chock full of incoming guns.
The firearm, ammo, and powder prices are over the moon, so I doubt he sells much of them.

[watab kid]

my LGS is moving next year from the range i work at part time to a stand alone building 30 miles away , he has a great client base - is busy all the time and has a built in new client base right there at the range , i question the logic of the move but he has no ability to expand where he is so i get that part , we shall see - hes in his 40s and has built a lot of loyalty - some of it may not drive 30 miles ......they may drive 60 to another shop , 

[Pat Riot]

When I moved to WV the range / gun store I joined closed. The owners didn’t want to deal with it anymore so they made a sweet deal with the town so the police could have it as a training center. 
 

Now I drive 15 miles to another gun store that has an indoor range. They have better prices and one heckuva selection. There are closer gun stores to me but I prefer the one south of me. 

[Old Man Graybeard]

Could be that the ATF pulled their FFL. Happened to a LGS here. Small glitch in paperwork...everything was there. Owner had been sick and didn't have things quite in order. They didn't give him quite enough time to get things in order. Current administration has instructed agents to use any reason at all to pull tags. Over 250 FFL's pulled so far this year in Iowa alone

[Warden Callaway]

Mary and I had a dozen or so family ran gunshops located within a two hour drive.  Once a week we'd take a "day trip" to one or more.  Most have changed hands or went out of business.  Those remaining have other business besides guns.  One sales chainsaws and logging supplies. The ones that changed hands,  converted to black rifle and plastic guns. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

18 minutes ago, Old Man Graybeard said:

Could be that the ATF pulled their FFL. Happened to a LGS here. Small glitch in paperwork...everything was there. Owner had been sick and didn't have things quite in order. They didn't give him quite enough time to get things in order. Current administration has instructed agents to use any reason at all to pull tags. Over 250 FFL's pulled so far this year in Iowa alone

I don't really know. That's what's frustrating about it. I know the owner also owns all the 7 or 8 businesses in this little strip mall.

[Dantankerous]

The LGS/range is probably the safest bet for longevity.

 

Around here, these places also offer myriad classes on safety and training so they've also all built classrooms to facilitate this.

 

Locally the gun store with the largest inventory by far is not a gun story at all but he sells firearms as an FFL outside of his primary business which has nothing to do with his secondary business so he has very low overhead and can offer good prices and he always has customers buying, selling and trading. Customers can see his inventory on his website. No range and no classes offered but he probably sells more firearms than the rest of them combined.

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I keep hearing people banging away at the "rumor and propaganda"  of "the administration has directed" BATFE to audit and shut down local dealers and gun shops.  Really??  Other than rampant BS claims, I have found absolutely no confirmation of this.  There is no credible source other than disgruntled FFL holders who were caught with their "books" unkept.  

[Rye Miles #13621]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I keep hearing people banging away at the "rumor and propaganda"  of "the administration has directed" BATFE to audit and shut down local dealers and gun shops.  Really??  Other than rampant BS claims, I have found absolutely no confirmation of this.  There is no credible source other than disgruntled FFL holders who were caught with their "books" unkept.  

Coffinmaker my old friend it is true about BATFE. They've become very strict and are a pain in the ars to dealers I talked to. If you cross your T's and dot your I's you should be okay but according to the folks I talked to they've been put on edge. It's because of Biden's anti-gun agenda I'm sure. The BATFE were given their orders. 

[Bear Saint Paw]

9 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Coffinmaker my old friend it is true about BATFE. They've become very strict and are a pain in the ars to dealers I talked to. If you cross your T's and dot your I's you should be okay but according to the folks I talked to they've been put on edge. It's because of Biden's anti-gun agenda I'm sure. The BATFE were given their orders. 

This is why gun bans aren't in the news much, they aren't trying to ban our guns but they are doing every other thing they can to make it near impossible to get them and the ammo and reloading components for them. 

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I keep hearing people banging away at the "rumor and propaganda"  of "the administration has directed" BATFE to audit and shut down local dealers and gun shops.  Really??  Other than rampant BS claims, I have found absolutely no confirmation of this.  There is no credible source other than disgruntled FFL holders who were caught with their "books" unkept.  

 

Depends on what you deem a "credible source" doesn't it. Are you a credible source?

 

I talk to the owners of the local gun shops that I visit, every one of them has been "audited" within the last two years. They have all told me that many other FFLs in the area had been subjected to this also. It's all writing on the wall...guess it all depends on one's way of reading it.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Depends on what you deem a "credible source" doesn't it. Are you a credible source?

 

I talk to the owners of the local gun shops that I visit, every one of them has been "audited" within the last two years. They have all told me that many other FFLs in the area had been subjected to this also. It's all writing on the wall...guess it all depends on one's way of reading it.

What is this "subjected to" language?

The ATF can legally audit standard FFL's up to once a year (more often if having failed a prior audir or if they have reason to suspect issues) (some classes of FFL can be audited an infinite number of times).

 

When I was running the pawns firearm division - our locations were audited yearly like clockwork (I had 30+ location responsibility for BATF compliance).

 

The inspection agents cannot demand more than is required by law - if the FFL is doing their job there are no licenses getting pulled.

 

But you have WAY too many FFL's who treat the regulatory end of the business like an optional process and then are SHOCKED when the audit goes poorly and they are actually held accountable, receive warnings, fines and re audits.

 

There are no "innocents" getting their licenses pulled for no reason.

[Rye Miles #13621]

13 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

What is this "subjected to" language?

The ATF can legally audit standard FFL's up to once a year (more often if having failed a prior audir or if they have reason to suspect issues) (some classes of FFL can be audited an infinite number of times).

 

When I was running the pawns firearm division - our locations were audited yearly like clockwork (I had 30+ location responsibility for BATF compliance).

 

The inspection agents cannot demand more than is required by law - if the FFL is doing their job there are no licenses getting pulled.

 

But you have WAY too many FFL's who treat the regulatory end of the business like an optional process and then are SHOCKED when the audit goes poorly and they are actually held accountable, receive warnings, fines and re audits.

 

There are no "innocents" getting their licenses pulled for no reason.

I agree somewhat but what I’ve been told is they’re coming in more frequently. Biden said he was going to go after FFL’s . I agree go after the ones that are breaking or ignoring rules but don’t overdue it. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

18 hours ago, Henry T Harrison said:

It’s hard to compete when the big box stores can buy them for less than the lgs can sell them for 

The "big box" stores are easy to compete against...pulllease.

 

Online stores are difficult... For reasons I don't have time to explain.

 

Phantom 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 hours ago, Old Man Graybeard said:

Could be that the ATF pulled their FFL. Happened to a LGS here. Small glitch in paperwork...everything was there. Owner had been sick and didn't have things quite in order. They didn't give him quite enough time to get things in order. Current administration has instructed agents to use any reason at all to pull tags. Over 250 FFL's pulled so far this year in Iowa alone

 

C'mon - let's at least TRY to use accurate numbers.

In 2023 - there were approx. 52,000 FFL licenses in the US (with another 50,000 Curios and Relics licenses).

Per the 2nd Admendment Foundation; by the HIGHEST projected estimates - there will be about 600 licenses either revoked or voluntarily turned in in 2023.

 

I cannot find any reliable information for 2023 - but 2022 saw about 7,000 new licenses issued.

 

So....

50k existing licensees plus 7k annually minus 600 does not equal an army of BATF agents closing down the firearms industry via inspection.

 

[Cypress Sun]

15 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

What is this "subjected to" language?

The ATF can legally audit standard FFL's up to once a year (more often if having failed a prior audir or if they have reason to suspect issues) (some classes of FFL can be audited an infinite number of times).

 

When I was running the pawns firearm division - our locations were audited yearly like clockwork (I had 30+ location responsibility for BATF compliance).

 

The inspection agents cannot demand more than is required by law - if the FFL is doing their job there are no licenses getting pulled.

 

But you have WAY too many FFL's who treat the regulatory end of the business like an optional process and then are SHOCKED when the audit goes poorly and they are actually held accountable, receive warnings, fines and re audits.

 

There are no "innocents" getting their licenses pulled for no reason.

 

I'm not suggesting any improprieties, Maybe "subjected to" wasn't the proper term to use. I'm simply saying that these audits have become far more numerous and studious than in years past based upon feedback that I receive from that actual store owners themselves. 

 

Me, I don't have a problem understanding the writing on the wall. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

3 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

I'm not suggesting any improprieties, Maybe "subjected to" wasn't the proper term to use. I'm simply saying that these audits have become far more numerous and studious than in years past based upon feedback that I receive from that actual store owners themselves. 

 

Me, I don't have a problem understanding the writing on the wall. 

Exactly what I’ve been told by the gun shop owners around here. The ATF keeps them on their toes for sure!

[Old Man Graybeard]

Creeker…this was in Iowa alone…coming from a reliable source. I can’t say for the rest of the country. This was NOT the agent this LGS usually deals with. The agent he dealt with regularly was not happy. When told the name of the agent that pulled the FFL…the regular agent said…that figures…

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The "big box" stores are easy to compete against...pulllease.

 

Online stores are difficult... For reasons I don't have time to explain.

 

Phantom 

IF someone had to rely on making their living selling stock Ruger 10/22's and 12g shotgun shells - it would be very challenging fighting the big box stores.

 

But... (as Phantom well knows)

Most of us understand if your "competition" has an undeniable advantage over you - you have to pivot to something you can do better than them.

 

Be it service, product mix or education.

A "small" business also has the ability to be more reactive to the market and buying realities than a retailer that must make buying/ budgeting decisions a year in advance.

 

My shop has discontinued stocking new firearms.  Only used product.

 

I don't have to tie up funds in product that will be handled, fondled and worn by lookie loos - just to hear them than state, "ok, now Ill order a NEW one from XXXX online and save $25".

 

So instead of working against our best interests; we are happy to provide FFL transfers at a reasonable price ($20 per firearm).

 

This way we have found a niche that serves our clientele and takes us out of competing directly with online retailers that operate at margins smaller than I am comfortable with.

 

It also allows us to have an inventory mix that is not the identical sea of plastic tactical found in most shops.

 

Wal-Mart, Sportsmans, Cabelas don't do these things - and I happily take my profit on the transfer as a service without investing any corresponding product outlay on that sale.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

31 minutes ago, Old Man Graybeard said:

Creeker…this was in Iowa alone…coming from a reliable source. I can’t say for the rest of the country. This was NOT the agent this LGS usually deals with. The agent he dealt with regularly was not happy. When told the name of the agent that pulled the FFL…the regular agent said…that figures…

I'm not saying there are not bad agents - some are complete pricks.

But MOST were decent folks just doing their job.

 

Some want to work with/ educate the FFL and there are some that enjoy nothing better than playing "Gotcha".

But ultimately - they have to follow the law; if my paperwork is correct - I'm fine.

 

And if my paperwork is in error - that's no ones fault, but my own.

 

And what level of "overlooking error" is acceptable to you?

 

Because if we pivot to other industries and ask the same...

How many rats ground into your hamburger meat is acceptable for the inspector to overlook?

 

How many medical sponges are acceptable to be sewn inside you after surgery before you think someone should say something?

 

How many stops for drunk driving should be "forgiven" before an arrest and jail is warranted?

 

When I was at the pawn - I took pride that in over 10 years and 30+ locations - we never had a failing audit. 

When we had any challenges in our record keeping or operations - I took immediate actions to retrain or implement additional controls to avoid recurrence.

 

At my personal shop - We work very hard to ensure our i's are dotted and our t's are crossed.

We have internal audit procedures that are followed and require sign off before paperwork is filed.

I have limited sympathy for others who don't take their efforts as seriously.

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for The Phantom

AND

PLUS ONE for Creeker

AND 

PLUS ONE for ME.  That's correct.  I'm not in the business of quoting some clown from "down the street" as I can only quote MYSELF.  When I was a small business with MY FFL, I was audited EVERY YEAR.  I expected it.  I kept my books in audit condition ALWAYS.  There is NO DIRECTIVE to put FFL holders out of business.  It is BATFE's responsibility to ensure FFLs toe the line.  If they don't, shame on them.  

 

This constant axe grinding by those with an agenda and wanting to see their own "opinion" in print is just so much BS.  Get over yourself.

 

PLUS ONE for Creeker part two as well

 

If you haven't PERSONALLY undergone a BATFE audit, you should have NOTHING to say.

[Rye Miles #13621]

15 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

PLUS ONE for The Phantom

AND

PLUS ONE for Creeker

AND 

PLUS ONE for ME.  That's correct.  I'm not in the business of quoting some clown from "down the street" as I can only quote MYSELF.  When I was a small business with MY FFL, I was audited EVERY YEAR.  I expected it.  I kept my books in audit condition ALWAYS.  There is NO DIRECTIVE to put FFL holders out of business.  It is BATFE's responsibility to ensure FFLs toe the line.  If they don't, shame on them.  

 

This constant axe grinding by those with an agenda and wanting to see their own "opinion" in print is just so much BS.  Get over yourself.

 

PLUS ONE for Creeker part two as well

 

If you haven't PERSONALLY undergone a BATFE audit, you should have NOTHING to say.

What’s this? No free speech in Coffinmakers world? I worked at a gun shop while they conducted a few audits. Does that count? I and others have been told the ATF is cracking down on them harder than ever. Don’t tell me that’s not on account of the nutbag in WH!

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Oh come off it Rye.  I have no objection to free speech.  I do have objection to those who PARROT nothing but gibberish to support an agenda.  I also reserve the right to call out those spout nothing but unsupported garbage.  While you worked in a shop under audit, were YOU the one HOLDING THE BAG??  Should answer your own question??

[Rye Miles #13621]

7 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Oh come off it Rye.  I have no objection to free speech.  I do have objection to those who PARROT nothing but gibberish to support an agenda.  I also reserve the right to call out those spout nothing but unsupported garbage.  While you worked in a shop under audit, were YOU the one HOLDING THE BAG??  Should answer your own question??

No I was not but why are all the gun shops telling me the ATF is cracking down harder on them than they ever did. Since you don’t have an FFL anymore ( at least I don’t think you do) you really don’t know what’s going on anymore than we do. It’s not gibberish that I’m hearing from actual gun shop owners!