LGS closed

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Two LGS have closed here in the last two months. I don't know the reasons. One was a longtime very small 'mom and pop' and I wouldn't be surprised if they just decided to hang it up.

 

The other I don't know. I used to buy a lot of ammo there, but during the pandemic/ammo shortage they unabashedly price-gouged on ammo, while Bass when it got ammo in sold it at standard retail. We were talking like 90 bucks a box for most standard revolver ammo. I just quit going. 

 

The main long-time LGS here, on the other hand, has been forward looking. About 4 years ago, they built a new store on the freeway with a state-of-the-art indoor range. They are doing well. The store has been owned by the same family for a long time.

 

Business changes and you have to keep up with competition and changing times.

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

PLUS ONE for The Phantom

AND

PLUS ONE for Creeker

AND 

PLUS ONE for ME.  That's correct.  I'm not in the business of quoting some clown from "down the street" as I can only quote MYSELF.  When I was a small business with MY FFL, I was audited EVERY YEAR.  I expected it.  I kept my books in audit condition ALWAYS.  There is NO DIRECTIVE to put FFL holders out of business.  It is BATFE's responsibility to ensure FFLs toe the line.  If they don't, shame on them.  

 

This constant axe grinding by those with an agenda and wanting to see their own "opinion" in print is just so much BS.  Get over yourself.

 

PLUS ONE for Creeker part two as well

 

If you haven't PERSONALLY undergone a BATFE audit, you should have NOTHING to say.

 

When was the last time that you PERSONALLY underwent a BATFE audit? Was it recently? If not, how many years ago was it. If your contention is that only FFL's can have an opinion, then Phantom's and Creeker's opinions are really the only one that matters as they are the only posters on this thread that (evidently) hold  current FFL's. The only thing that Phantom stated was concerned competing businesses, not BATFE audits. Creeker's observations were directly about BATFE audits, business competition and practices. I believe him when he states that most of the agents are just doing their job and have no underlying motives. I can't say that I have the same belief in their bosses though.

 

I've never undergone a BATFE audit because I'm not an FFL holder. I did, however, have a lengthy conversation with the owner of a local gun store last Thursday, 12/14/23 who told me what I stated earlier. Had another long conversation with another LGS owner in November and a different owner in October with the same story. Prior to that, I spoke with 2 other owners earlier in the year that said the same thing. Do all of these different owners all have a undercurrent agenda? Huh, must be some kind of conspiracy. They are all still in business after these audits so they obviously had their paperwork in order, but their opinions' don't carry any weight as they aren't in line with yours? You're the one that needs to "get over yourself".

 

[Henry T Harrison]

4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The "big box" stores are easy to compete against...pulllease.

 

Online stores are difficult... For reasons I don't have time to explain.

 

Phantom 

Online sales are what keeps many lgs in business. Enter the incoming gun in your books notify the buyer it’s in five minutes of paper work, take the gun out of your books, forty dollars please, Twenty minutes 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

Online sales are what keeps many lgs in business. Enter the incoming gun in your books notify the buyer it’s in five minutes of paper work, take the gun out of your books, forty dollars please, Twenty minutes 

Probably one of the funniest things I've read in a long time - thanks!!!

 

Phantom

[John Kloehr]

Not an FFL, things I have heard...

 

The distributor sent you this make, model and serial number of firearm and you do not have the gun and it is not in your book... That is a problem. I must agree this is a problem.

 

Compared to:

 

The 1 in your handwritten entry in the book looks like an l. I'm revoking your license. Really? Or the 4473 for this transfer was misfiled. Even though you did produce it after a few more minutes, it was in the wrong file folder (the next day folder). Unacceptably sloppy!

 

I am not an FFL but have heard some claims of ridiculous audit findings. I can not vouch for the accuracy or truth of the examples I cited above, but I do get  sense that any small or particularly any home-based FFL (I know many) is under more scrutiny and less tolerance for minor and correctable (even corrected) items than the major chains. And even the major chains are being especially careful...

 

Case in point on this at a major retailer, they got a gun in for transfer. I overheard and hung around to snoop. The shipper reversed the seller and buyer information on the form and the buyer was there to pick up the firearm. And other shipping information clearly connected the shipper as the shipper. And the shipper was clearly the out-of-state individual, and the buyer was clearly (per ID) in state. No transfer until this gets corrected, which might require shipping it back to the original FFL to be shipped again... Crap! Call the attorney. This store was trying to figure out how to avoid an audit problem, rather than simply documenting the transfer was proper and lawful. For a human without an additional agenda, a simple fax apologizing for and correcting the error should be enough.

 

But if the auditor has an agenda, doing the right thing will not be enough.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

If someone wants to be in a business involved in oil, gas, FOOD, windmills, solar energy, nuclear, banking, stock market, firearms, etc., where there are laws, regulations, etc., and whatever else a small business owner or a large corporation has to follow in the USA.  Then, if anyone doesn't want to do their job properly, and gets caught with their pants down, well, how much money can you afford to pay lawyers to keep you out of prison and the gov't take everything you own.   DO YOUR JOB AND FOLLOW THE RULES TODAY THE WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN, OR QUIT AND GO HOME!!!!!

[Henry T Harrison]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Probably one of the funniest things I've read in a long time - thanks!!!

 

Phantom

I’m glad you thought it was funny 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

I knew a guy that nearly lost his FFL, (kitchen table). His business was at his home, but the mailing address was his mother's home, next door. He told me that the Inspector REALLY wanted to take his FFL, but since he was easily able to correct it, she couldn't.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

I’m glad you thought it was funny 

Well...funny in a sad way.

 

Would love to see your business model centered around doing transfers.

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I knew a guy that nearly lost his FFL, (kitchen table). His business was at his home, but the mailing address was his mother's home, next door. He told me that the Inspector REALLY wanted to take his FFL, but since he was easily able to correct it, she couldn't.

Well...this IS a problem.

 

The address on the FFL is the legal address for doing business. Sounds like he was running his business at an address other than the one on his FFL.

 

I'm surprised that he didn't lose his FFL.

 

Phantom

[Henry T Harrison]

7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well...funny in a sad way.

 

Would love to see your business model centered around doing transfers.

 

Phantom

The lgs I worked at has been in business for over forty years as a brick and mortar store. Tens of thousands of guns have passed through the store and we have outlasted several big box stores so the business model must be working. Gun transfers and gun bash’s are a real solid money maker.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

14 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

The lgs I worked at has been in business for over forty years as a brick and mortar store. Tens of thousands of guns have passed through the store and we have outlasted several big box stores so the business model must be working. Gun transfers and gun bash’s are a real solid money maker.

 

I'm sure you're intimately familiar with their business model...thinking that transfers can support a reasonably good sized shop verses actual firearm sales. 

 

Would love to know on what basis you think that "Online sales are what keeps many lgs in business."

 

Transfers are a very competitive "product" within the gun shop market. Won't even entertain the "Gun Bash" reference.

 

Phantom

[Henry T Harrison]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm sure you're intimately familiar with their business model...thinking that transfers can support a reasonably good sized shop verses actual firearm sales. 

 

Would love to know on what basis you think that "Online sales are what keeps many lgs in business."

 

Transfers are a very competitive "product" within the gun shop market. Won't even entertain the "Gun Bash" reference.

 

Phantom

I’m glad your shop can afford to pass up about 50k a year in gun bash profits and $120 a day in transfers 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

I’m glad your shop can afford to pass up about 50k a year in gun bash profits and $120 a day in transfers 

Please...try not to read into my comments more than that which was stated.

 

First off, "gun bash" is a pretty regional term...do you think most folks understand this term? Secondly, you use the term "Profit". So is this Gross Profit???

 

You're statement that "online sales is what keeps many lgs in business" is silly. Your statement is full of assumptions based solely on what...your working at a Gun Shop? Now obviously any contributor to one's bottom line is more than likely a good thing. But your statement is that it's what keeps "them" in business. 

 

It's this belief...this...attitude...that truly hurts the small gun shops. Customers that "think" that their online gun purchases and hence the transfer fees that they generate is doing the small gun shop a favor...that they are keeping them from closing their doors that is killing the small gun shops.

 

And lastly, don't assume that I'm saying these things because beliefs like yours is hurting my business. It's not. My business is structured...differently. I'm not here whining about how these things are hurting me. It just makes me sick to hear the BS about how small gun shops are being keep alive because of all the online sales/transfers. Thank God for those people that are saving a few bucks with online gun purchases...imagine how many small gun shops would have closed by now if folks actually purchased their guns from that small gun shop...oh the horror!!!!

 

Phantom

[Buckshot Bob]

On 12/16/2023 at 7:07 PM, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Good point, the only gun stores that seem to be doing okay are the ones with shooting ranges. 

I think that depends on how rural you are. Where I’m at there are quite a few gun clubs and we are fairly rural. Allot of people “like myself” have house on 10 or 20 acres and have a back yard range . The gun club about 5 miles from me has a 1000 yd rifle range and indoor pistol. And there are a few farmers with a bank or dirt pile the locals use. 
We only have one indoor range in the area. But he does pretty good with pistol leagues and CPL classes. In southern Mi where it is more populated there are many more indoor ranges. 

[Buckshot Bob]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:36 PM, bgavin said:

My LGS appears to make all their money on FFL transactions, as the lobby is usually chock full of incoming guns.
The firearm, ammo, and powder prices are over the moon, so I doubt he sells much of them.

My local Ace Hardware has a gun section “right next to their doughnut counter” . And that’s where I get transfers done when I do any internet purchases. They always have a pile a guns behind the counter waiting for pickup. 
The last time I transferred a rifle there I asked the guy behind the counter how many they do a day and he said somewhere between 10 to 15 a day. Every time I’m in there it seems like there is at least 5 Palmetto state armory boxes in the pile. 

[watab kid]

i cant agree with phantom more on the idea that gun store would survive solely on transfers , i guess you might try it as a business model but i think by the time you deal with the ATF you will be broke , as a supplement maybe , but if you dont build a good client base as well as buy right then sell right your not going to succeed , 

there are also the differences between those that are retail outlets and those that actually do gunsmithing , then add in those that make and fit stocks , so much plays into the success or failure of a small business , 

[Rye Miles #13621]

8 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Please...try not to read into my comments more than that which was stated.

 

First off, "gun bash" is a pretty regional term...do you think most folks understand this term? Secondly, you use the term "Profit". So is this Gross Profit???

 

You're statement that "online sales is what keeps many lgs in business" is silly. Your statement is full of assumptions based solely on what...your working at a Gun Shop? Now obviously any contributor to one's bottom line is more than likely a good thing. But your statement is that it's what keeps "them" in business. 

 

It's this belief...this...attitude...that truly hurts the small gun shops. Customers that "think" that their online gun purchases and hence the transfer fees that they generate is doing the small gun shop a favor...that they are keeping them from closing their doors that is killing the small gun shops.

 

And lastly, don't assume that I'm saying these things because beliefs like yours is hurting my business. It's not. My business is structured...differently. I'm not here whining about how these things are hurting me. It just makes me sick to hear the BS about how small gun shops are being keep alive because of all the online sales/transfers. Thank God for those people that are saving a few bucks with online gun purchases...imagine how many small gun shops would have closed by now if folks actually purchased their guns from that small gun shop...oh the horror!!!!

 

Phantom

You’re absolutely right about saving a few bucks online. FEW is the key word here. When you factor in shipping and transfer charges you really save hardly anything. The only time I used my LGS for a transfer is if I’m buying something used that can’t be ordered.

[Kid Rich]

Something no one has mentioned is the subjectivity of individual ATF agents. I was purchasing a revolver from a gun shop and was told by the owner I could not buy it because my primary residence listed on my DL was in another state. I told him to contact his ATF agent and he did, who also told him I could not buy it. At this time an ex police officer in the store told him the same thing. At this point in time I told the store owner to call the 800 number for ATF and ask them. He did and gave them the required info and they told him to have me fill out the forms and they would walk him through the process. I left with revolver. Legally.

kR

 PS I  apologized for all the bother he had to go to. He said none needed as he had lost sales before under the same circumstances but would not in the future.

[Buckshot Bob]

1 hour ago, Kid Rich said:

Something no one has mentioned is the subjectivity of individual ATF agents. I was purchasing a revolver from a gun shop and was told by the owner I could not buy it because my primary residence listed on my DL was in another state. I told him to contact his ATF agent and he did, who also told him I could not buy it. At this time an ex police officer in the store told him the same thing. At this point in time I told the store owner to call the 800 number for ATF and ask them. He did and gave them the required info and they told him to have me fill out the forms and they would walk him through the process. I left with revolver. Legally.

kR

 PS I  apologized for all the bother he had to go to. He said none needed as he had lost sales before under the same circumstances but would not in the future.

I had this experience many times when I had a FFL . Call 3 different people at the ATF and get 3 different answers to the same question. Although I have to admit I’ve had the same experience with other government agencies and large businesses. HR departments , insurance companies, warranties, etc….. What’s that old Regan quote. The most feared words in the English language are . We’re from the government and we’re here to help 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Kid Rich said:

Something no one has mentioned is the subjectivity of individual ATF agents. I was purchasing a revolver from a gun shop and was told by the owner I could not buy it because my primary residence listed on my DL was in another state. I told him to contact his ATF agent and he did, who also told him I could not buy it. At this time an ex police officer in the store told him the same thing. At this point in time I told the store owner to call the 800 number for ATF and ask them. He did and gave them the required info and they told him to have me fill out the forms and they would walk him through the process. I left with revolver. Legally.

kR

 PS I  apologized for all the bother he had to go to. He said none needed as he had lost sales before under the same circumstances but would not in the future.

Well that's not right.

 

I can tell ya right now that if we submit a Handgun for background check and the buyer is an out of state resident, it won't pass.

 

Phantom

[Eyesa Horg]

OK, just what is "gun bashing"?

[Henry T Harrison]

12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Please...try not to read into my comments more than that which was stated.

 

First off, "gun bash" is a pretty regional term...do you think most folks understand this term? Secondly, you use the term "Profit". So is this Gross Profit???

 

You're statement that "online sales is what keeps many lgs in business" is silly. Your statement is full of assumptions based solely on what...your working at a Gun Shop? Now obviously any contributor to one's bottom line is more than likely a good thing. But your statement is that it's what keeps "them" in business. 

 

It's this belief...this...attitude...that truly hurts the small gun shops. Customers that "think" that their online gun purchases and hence the transfer fees that they generate is doing the small gun shop a favor...that they are keeping them from closing their doors that is killing the small gun shops.

 

And lastly, don't assume that I'm saying these things because beliefs like yours is hurting my business. It's not. My business is structured...differently. I'm not here whining about how these things are hurting me. It just makes me sick to hear the BS about how small gun shops are being keep alive because of all the online sales/transfers. Thank God for those people that are saving a few bucks with online gun purchases...imagine how many small gun shops would have closed by now if folks actually purchased their guns from that small gun shop...oh the horror!!!!

 

Phantom

Transfers and gun bashes alone will never by themselves keep a store in business but they sure help both in direct sales and by bringing new customers into the store 

[Henry T Harrison]

12 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

OK, just what is "gun bashing"?

In a gun bash tickets for usually twenty guns are sold for a drawing based on the daily lottery on a certain day. There is a dinner and other raffles that night. It’s a big money maker for the sponsor who is usually a VFD or sportsman club. There is also a type where a ticket good for a month is sold and a gun or cash is given away every day 

[Eyesa Horg]

I've actually won some that way. Thanks

Glad it wasn't talking chit about guns.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Henry T Harrison said:

Transfers and gun bashes alone will never by themselves keep a store in business but they sure help both in direct sales and by bringing new customers into the store 

You know this is a completely different statement then your first statement...right?

 

Phantom

[Henry T Harrison]

I’m done since phantom is never wrong 

[Kid Rich]

20 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well that's not right.

 

I can tell ya right now that if we submit a Handgun for background check and the buyer is an out of state resident, it won't pass.

 

Phantom

I think you need to check with ATF. Try going on their website and looking under FAQ. If a person OWNS a residence in TWO states and does not rent or lease either out in his or her absence they can legally purchase a handgun in either state. At least in AZ and ME. I don't know if it is that way where you live but ATF regs say it is legal.

kR

PS I carried a current tax bill in my vehicle for my residence for the state that my drivers license was not from for 16 years in case I wanted to purchase a handgun.in that state.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

I think you need to check with ATF. Try going on their website and looking under FAQ. If a person OWNS a residence in TWO states and does not rent or lease either out in his or her absence they can legally purchase a handgun in either state. At least in AZ and ME. I don't know if it is that way where you live but ATF regs say it is legal.

kR

PS I carried a current tax bill in my vehicle for my residence for the state that my drivers license was not from for 16 years in case I wanted to purchase a handgun.in that state.

CO is...unique...perhaps. 

 

We run our BG Checks through CBI (they run it through NICS). Their (CBI), system won't allow a handgun check with a resident check out of state. Now if they have a 2nd Res such as Mil folks, then yes.

 

Phantom

22 hours ago, Henry T Harrison said:

I’m done since phantom is never wrong 

This is such silliness...

 

If I'm wrong (which happens a lot), tell me how I'm wrong.

 

Oy!!

 

Phantom

[Sixgun Seamus]

Well, I went and did it today. I supported my small LGS today. They folks there know me. I walked out with my evil non CAS carbine with all the necessary evil stuff on it. (pistol grip, picatinny rail and threaded barrel and it folds in half) It was also cheaper than the area gun store chain.