Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Small, far, and difficult sequences vs big, close and easy sequences.


Recommended Posts

I use to shoot in Raton New Mexico, this shoot was organized by the old west shooter’s association. we would shoot 32 stages over four days plus all the side events both pistol and rifle targets were small and far. There was one rifle stage where the targets where about 100 yards away it was a great shoot and still is one of my favorite shoots. I went there for about ten years and never got a clean match, that was the challenge every year the closest I never came was one miss. This shoot was started by bill Hahn.

 

Lefty

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which one has the best looking women?  

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
  • Haha 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It’s a long haul from Georgia, but at some point Sharyn and I are attending Bordertown!

It's a fun match with the added benefit of having the town on Tombstone to spend your evening in.

At our monthly matches we supply a mixture of both  setups.  A little of the smaller targets at distance and others at big and close.

Bordertown is all Big and Close.

J.M

Edited by Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The trouble is that people will define small and far, making it a bullseye match, as something like 16" pistol targets st 10 yards and 16" rifle targets at 15 yards. Oh no, it's a bullseye match. 

 

For the actual choice as described I'd go to the big and close. The fact that having one miss at a shooting competition just absolutely ruins someone's day is, at this point not a surprise, but still disappointing. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good morning Captain Bill,

I have been writing the stages for our monthly shoots for quite a while and this question is always on my mind. If I may, for my own clarification, could you roughly define what is considered to be Big/Close/Simple vs Small/Far/Difficult. I don't want to hijack your Poll, I just want to make sure of the parameters. I appreciate you starting this thread.

Thank you -

Spoon River Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't answer that.  There's not enough info in the post to make a decision.  There's just no information on what the potential scenarios are.

 

When I set up a match for the Irregulars, there are big/close, there are big/far, and a mix.  Some of the arrays are difficult (as in 2 targets widely spaced and single tap alternate), but the engagement orders are always straightforward.  I'm not interested in anyone getting a P, but am interested in providing a challenge.

 

Big and close offers a shoot fast challenge.  Targets that are out there a ways offer an accuracy challenge.  I like matches with a good mix and variety.

 

So for the originally posted choice, I'd probably stay home.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Spoon River Sam, SASS #33194L said:

Good morning Captain Bill,

I have been writing the stages for our monthly shoots for quite a while and this question is always on my mind. If I may, for my own clarification, could you roughly define what is considered to be Big/Close/Simple vs Small/Far/Difficult. I don't want to hijack your Poll, I just want to make sure of the parameters. I appreciate you starting this thread.

Thank you -

Spoon River Sam

That's a very fair question Sam!

 

Let's call close anything equal to or closer than 12 yards for rifle and 6 yards for pistol.

Let's call far anything equal to or great than 9 yards for pistol and 15 yards for rifle.

 

Those distances include lateral distances, not just how far the target is from the firing line, how far is the target from where the shooter is standing.

 

I'm not good with sizes, but for pistols lets say anything equal to or less than 20x18 is small and for rifles anything equal to or less than 16x16 is small.

For pistols anything greater than 20x18 is big and for rifles anything greater than 16x16 is big.

 

Allow for angles on the target, the greater the angle the shooter is shooting from the smaller the target.

 

It's hard to define difficult sequences.  The firing pattern of a Chevy V8?  Different rifle and pistol sequences that are 'uncommon' sequences.  Sequences with a lot of swinging.   A sequence that you run through in your head a half dozen times and you're still not sure if you got it right or will be able to remember it.  A sequence where the shooter has to worry about things other than shooting, like where his feet are, or can he hit that shotgun target that is positioned at 160 degrees from him without breaking the 170.  A bunch of challenges which taken individually are relatively benign, but combined cause problems (rifle reload, vertical staging, lots of movement, split pistols, etc.) 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Big and close

 I go shoot for the competition and the fun/cameraderie with the other people there. I can get both of those at a big and close match. It's hard to have a jovial conversation with someone in a bad mood because they have a bunch of misses or had to slow waaay down on every stage to be clean. 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Of the responses that actually answered my question (mixed stages, people I like, I don't care, etc. were not options) the responses appear to be 13-4 in favor of big, close and simple.  So far....


 Just my opinion but your poll is highly biased because you lumped in difficulty. A better poll would be…

 

With the stage sequences and movement being equal, do you prefer big and close or smaller and further away. 
 

Next question should be: ignoring the stages and target distance, what do you consider important.

Shoot the match with a minimum of interactivity with the other shooters. 
 

or

 

Shoot a match with a lot of interaction, good natured ribbing, and sharing a meal and good conversation after the match. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:


 Just my opinion but your poll is highly biased because you lumped in difficulty. A better poll would be…

 

With the stage sequences and movement being equal, do you prefer big and close or smaller and further away. 
 

Next question should be: ignoring the stages and target distance, what do you consider important.

Shoot the match with a minimum of interactivity with the other shooters. 
 

or

 

Shoot a match with a lot of interaction, good natured ribbing, and sharing a meal and good conversation after the match. 

Perhaps.  I didn't want to have to many different posts on the same topic.  Another potential question was do you like stand and deliver, or do you want to run, a lot.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Perhaps.  I didn't want to have to many different posts on the same topic.  Another potential question was do you like stand and deliver, or do you want to run, a lot.

Again, some of both. "Variety is the spice of life."  (somebody!)

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone really needs to define what big and close really means. 
 

What makes a big pistol target? 12X12, 16X16, 20X20, or bigger. 
What distance in feet is close?  3, 5, 7, 10, 15 20, or 24 feet. Yes I have seen pistol targets at less than 3 feet from the muzzle of the shooter’s pistol
 

 Now what is a big rifle target?

 At what distance?

 

 My experience is that few shooters really know the true distance to a target. 
 

 It is also my experience that the definition of big and close varies a lot. 
 

I would love to know the EXACT distances and target sizes by stage for both EOT and Land Run / Winter Range. 

 

 

 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me, it's hard to define a big or a close target size. When I hear it, it means I can shoot at my regular match speed without having to slow down to bear down on a target. That'll be different for everybody.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Too small or far is defined by many SASS shooters as this. Let's just say a left to right sweep to keep it simple.  If as a shooter is cycling the gun and transitioning to the next target, if they finish cocking the gun but need to hesitate for a split second before breaking the shot to confirm their sight picture, that target is too far or too small or both. Not everyone looks at it this way but many do 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Perhaps.  I didn't want to have to many different posts on the same topic.  Another potential question was do you like stand and deliver, or do you want to run, a lot.


 My point was that no body likes difficult stages and P traps even if the targets are big and close. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of your two choices I would pick big and easy.

When you get your targets really big and the sequences easy it tends to give the shooter faster times than they have had in the past (and puts a smile on their face).

Big and easy is okay once or twice a year.  After that I would want more of a challenge.  I am also not saying that I'm in favor of the far and difficult.  Something in between to challenge my accuracy and my memory.

If I went to a match where I had as many misses as hits, I probably would not be going back.  I could say that it was a waste of primers, but reality would be the lack of fun factor.  

 

And those are my thoughts,

BS

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That's a very fair question Sam!

 

Let's call close anything equal to or closer than 12 yards for rifle and 6 yards for pistol.

Let's call far anything equal to or great than 9 yards for pistol and 15 yards for rifle.

 

Those distances include lateral distances, not just how far the target is from the firing line, how far is the target from where the shooter is standing.

 

I'm not good with sizes, but for pistols lets say anything equal to or less than 20x18 is small and for rifles anything equal to or less than 16x16 is small.

For pistols anything greater than 20x18 is big and for rifles anything greater than 16x16 is big.

 

Allow for angles on the target, the greater the angle the shooter is shooting from the smaller the target.

 

It's hard to define difficult sequences.  The firing pattern of a Chevy V8?  Different rifle and pistol sequences that are 'uncommon' sequences.  Sequences with a lot of swinging.   A sequence that you run through in your head a half dozen times and you're still not sure if you got it right or will be able to remember it.  A sequence where the shooter has to worry about things other than shooting, like where his feet are, or can he hit that shotgun target that is positioned at 160 degrees from him without breaking the 170.  A bunch of challenges which taken individually are relatively benign, but combined cause problems (rifle reload, vertical staging, lots of movement, split pistols, etc.) 

I'll agree your "close" definition is ok, but... you haven't yet described far yet... Your "small" is a bit generous... 

 

"Far" would be more'n 12 yards for pistol & 20 yards for rifle.  Provided we're talking 16" sq targets.  Yet, you could put some 24"x24" rifle targets out to 25 yards and I'd still be ok... I'd slow a bit... You probably ain't... but that's ok with me... In fact... get creative... cut some welding cylinders off at different lengths... hang 'em up 25 yards away, but make sure they will "play" a tune when hit...  You'll still have some folks laughin', others bitchin', and more'n a few wonderin' "...what was that about?".  I'll tell who'll be in the majority and the most vocal....  

 

Therein, lies the real problem:  Definition of terms.  Back to my original answer. ;)

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Never and I mean NEVER small and far. 
 

I like to look at the percentage of clean shooters for matches.  It is just one data point but I consider it an important one in determining whether or not I invest my time and money. 
 

I’m not “bashing” anyone or any club, it’s my choice where I shoot, and I vote with my feet, so to speak.  

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I understand, any question that's presented like this one has lots of bias and flaws, but I do believe it can give an idea of what SASS members who frequent the Wire prefer.  

 

I think you'd get a more accurate idea of what shooters want if the only  choices weren't at the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer a mix. If there is a "stand and deliver" stage or just a couple steps I'll stay at home. 

 

We have some 8" squares I put out at Hell On Wheels every year. They are usually 3 yards for pistol or 6 yards for rifle. No one misses those, they miss the dump target that's 20" x 20" at 7 or 10 yards.. 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Assassin said:

I prefer a mix. If there is a "stand and deliver" stage or just a couple steps I'll stay at home. 

 

We have some 8" squares I put out at Hell On Wheels every year. They are usually 3 yards for pistol or 6 yards for rifle. No one misses those, they miss the dump target that's 20" x 20" at 7 or 10 yards.. 

 

 

 

Stand and deliver = torture 

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There used to be a CAS match about 8 miles from my house as the crow flies when I first started in 2007. There would be 70-80 shooters there every match. Quite a few came down from Riverside, Orange, L.A. counties to shoot the match. There was a gun smith, sometimes a food vendor and an occasional other vendor or two. As the sport evolved at other ranges to closer and bigger the attendance at the above mentioned match started dropping off and the club closed down. I rarely shot at the club the last few years that it was in existence because the same little targets were getting moved further out and if someone dared shoot a clean match they got moved out some more. I didn’t find any fun in shooting the match. The last monthly match that I attended had 14 shooters and there was a lot of grumbling about the distant, small targets. 
 

There’s a club that I used to shoot at every month but I rarely shoot there anymore because of the target distance and other factors. The MD asked me one time what it would take to get me to come out and shoot with them every month and when I mentioned a few things that I’d like to see changed, he got mad and told me that if I didn’t like how they did things that I didn’t have to come back! He asked my opinion and I told him and then he got pissed, if you are afraid of the answers don’t ask the question. They get about 15-20 shooters on a monthly basis and I’m pretty confident that with a few of the changes that I mentioned that number would double or triple once ‘the word got out but the current regime won’t change. We used to have 3 posses there and they could again, in my opinion of course.

 

Our game has evolved, like it or not.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

There used to be a CAS match about 8 miles from my house as the crow flies when I first started in 2007. There would be 70-80 shooters there every match. Quite a few came down from Riverside, Orange, L.A. counties to shoot the match. There was a gun smith, sometimes a food vendor and an occasional other vendor or two. As the sport evolved at other ranges to closer and bigger the attendance at the above mentioned match started dropping off and the club closed down. I rarely shot at the club the last few years that it was in existence because the same little targets were getting moved further out and if someone dared shoot a clean match they got moved out some more. I didn’t find any fun in shooting the match. The last monthly match that I attended had 14 shooters and there was a lot of grumbling about the distant, small targets. 
 

There’s a club that I used to shoot at every month but I rarely shoot there anymore because of the target distance and other factors. The MD asked me one time what it would take to get me to come out and shoot with them every month and when I mentioned a few things that I’d like to see changed, he got mad and told me that if I didn’t like how they did things that I didn’t have to come back! He asked my opinion and I told him and then he got pissed, if you are afraid of the answers don’t ask the question. They get about 15-20 shooters on a monthly basis and I’m pretty confident that with a few of the changes that I mentioned that number would double or triple once ‘the word got out but the current regime won’t change. We used to have 3 posses there and they could again, in my opinion of course.

 

Our game has evolved, like it or not.

 Quite true and the numbers continue to decline  .It is a problem. SAD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Big, close, simple (I prefer the term straight forward to simple).

 

Matches are (even if not done consciously) written to feed egos and make people feel a "certain way"...

 

A small, far, difficult (code word challenging) is (often, not always) written to boost the ego of the match director celebrating the denial of clean, fast runs.  These are the matches that believe they have a responsibility to encourage better marksmanship by exposing the inabilities of their shooters.

Now admittedly; I have shot some of these type matches put on by wonderful folks at wonderful venues that I do not believe were undertaken with ulterior motives - but I have NEVER shot one that the people, the venue or the awards could overcome the downsides and make attending a match of this type enjoyable enough to return.

 

Whereas a big, close, simple match is written to boost the egos of the majority of the shooters - allowing and encouraging every shooter to perform at a level beyond their usual.  These matches have their same challenges as the encouragement to go faster than ever before is fraught with dangers and trainwrecks as well.  And every mistake made in these type of matches are magnified by the bunching of scores.  Yes, 10 second stages are an amazing thing to watch; years of practice and mental/ physical perfection - but watching a usual 35 second shooter shoot their first 27 and watching their smile bloom and cheers erupt is just as much fun.

 

As many have stated many times over the years - we only get to SHOOT for a couple minutes - the rest of the time is spent working and watching others. 

Being surrounded by a positive environment, watching others succeed and being present in their celebration is infectious and makes all the non shooting time just as joyful as the time on the firing line.

 

Silence and failure at a match is just as infectious - even if you personally shoot well; watching others being disappointed and sad sucks all the fun off the range.

 

I spend a lot of money to attend matches - I generally try to avoid spending money on things that will dampen the joy of my wife, my daughter or myself.  

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Too much of anything is a bad thing... Well, except... nope, even that!  

 

But, people like to complain... more'n everything else... apparently.   The majority would've answered like my first answer... but are too chicken to admit it.  I've watched so many people at different venues, compain the targets were too far/close/big/shaped funny... scenarios are too difficult... then there's always the... "it was too hot/cold", "it was too windy/not windy enough..."

 

I've never met a stage I didn't like before I got up to shoot it... I've readjusted my viewpoint after I've shot on a great many!  Usually directly proportional to my performance.    The worse I did, the worse I like it!  

 

I get a kick outta all the effort some folks put into their complainin'.... If they put that much effort into practicin'... they'd be winners!  

 

Keep the targets big... set 'em in imaginative ways, some high, some low, some over there, here and back there, up here, and all over!  Keep the sequences simple... folks'll screw up all all by themselves.!  Keep sequences for rifle & pistol as close as possible... folks will still screw up all on their own... If you have an all big/close match... you'll just force me to slow down and try for the corners...   Did you know that if you hit those little (or big) Harper targets in the feet it looks like he's dancin'!!!?  

 

OH wait!  You wanted a serious answer?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you set up things for shooters who usually shoot 35 second stages to better enable them to possibly shoot a sub 30 second stage you are at the same time taking away the possibility of them having the greater thrill of shooting a sub 30 stage on stages they formerly had not been able to do so. But apparently that is what people want.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.