SxS barrel question

[Chief Rick]

I saw a SxS the other day that has me questioning usefulness and legality for CAS.

 

The barrels were not cut straight across but were cut as seen with the picture below (the black line).

 

 

SO, what would be the purpose of doing this?

 

Is this legal for CAS?

 

SHB page 33 does not refer to this, either yea or nay.  It states barrels may be shortened but must be 18 inches and compensating ports are not allowed. 

[Long Fingers, SASS#56813]

Use it as a kinda stand-off device, like the serrated door breaches on single barrel guns????? Not that a uncut shotgun stuck in your chest wouldn’t get your attention.  Don’t know why it wouldn’t be legal for SASS as long as it’s legal length?? 
LF. 

[Tequila Shooter]

Other than looks I don’t know why you’d cut’em like that, can’t imagine it’d make for a good pattern. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I'm guessing if you pulled both triggers at once you would get a really wide pattern (with maybe a hole in the middle??)

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Possibly it was cut to carry in a scabbard. 

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

Looks like an external moification that has NOT been approved by SASS.   Can't think of any reason for doing it.

 

Blackfoot

[G W Wade]

First look made me think it was an attempt to change the pattern.   Years ago (many) a company was peddling "broom chokes"   They ground the inside of the choke tubes, mostly oval to give you a pattern that was wider than tall.  Made many styles oval, Tri. Quad.    But have to agree, Not legal for SASS.   Hope they left enough barrel to shorten and still be legal      GW

[Kid Rich]

Seems to me if you say not cut straight then you would have to decide how much if any degree of deviation from straight would be allowed. So if some body cut one and it wasn't perfectly straight would that be allowed or would it have to be exactly 90 degrees?

kR

[Badlands Bob #61228]

It's pretty common practice to shorten barrels on any and all SASS approved guns.  Nothing in the rule book I can find that says the barrel cut has to be straight.  I don't see what advantage this would give someone.  I'd say it's kind of strange but legal.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

SASS says shotgun barrels must maintain a length of 18 inches.  That's it.  So long as that "Salami" cut maintains a length of 18 inches, it's legal.  Funny looking, funny patterning, but legal.  If any part of the barrel is less than 18 inches, it is not only NOT SASS legal but is afoul of BATFE.

[Chief Rick]

I'm not looking for a reason to penalize someone, but this is something I've never seen before.

 

My personal feelings are the same as @Colorado Coffinmaker.

 

That said, I'd like to inform the owner of this gun if there is or could be potential for "unapproved external modification".

 

Not to mention OAL length concerns.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I haven't seen it before either.  Only been playing the game for about 30 years though.  May not have seen it all.  It does, however, seem ballistically stupid.  An uneven "push" as the payload exits the barrel will head off sideways.  Can't say as I see that as a benefit.  The short side of the "Salami" cut MUST also NOT be less than 18 inches.  The thing to remember - - - - The BATFE does NOT HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR.

[Assassin]

I've seen pink, green, purple, and even gator graphics on shotguns. What's the problem with weird angles? They could just call it "Steam Punk" and it would be fine.

 

I don't think it will affect the pattern.

[Crusty Steve]

Rick,

 I talked to a guy that had cut his barrels as you described. He said the barrels were originally cut square, but the gun was dropped and damaged the side of the barrel right at the end. He made the angled cut to remove the damaged area and cut the other barrel to match. 

Crusty Steve

[Dusty Devil Dale]

8 hours ago, Crusty Steve said:

Rick,

 I talked to a guy that had cut his barrels as you described. He said the barrels were originally cut square, but the gun was dropped and damaged the side of the barrel right at the end. He made the angled cut to remove the damaged area and cut the other barrel to match. 

Crusty Steve

May have been necessary to maintain legal minimum barrel length.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

May have been necessary to maintain legal minimum barrel length.  

Oh! Please do explain.

 

Phantom

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oh! Please do explain.

 

Phantom

Pls also read Crusty Steve's post that I was responding to.  Barrel length is not given in OP. 

Center of barrel might be right at legal min. length, and dents caused need for the odd side modifications.  (A barrel dent remover would have been a better solution, IMO. )   

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

If the center of those barrels is at the legal minimum, then the guy is going to jail. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

 

...

SASS recognizes the desire to enhance firearm performance. Firearms manufacturers, importers, gunsmiths, and the membership as a whole must use caution in any quest to develop mechanisms designed to enhance the operation of firearms for Cowboy Action Shooting™. Any firearm modification not specifically referenced in this Handbook is prohibited. Parties interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration application from SASS Headquarters. Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the only source of approval. Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms used without this approval are illegal.

...

 

SHB p.32

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Pls also read Crusty Steve's post that I was responding to.  Barrel length is not given in OP. 

Center of barrel might be right at legal min. length, and dents caused need for the odd side modifications.  (A barrel dent remover would have been a better solution, IMO. )   

 

How can an angle cut save the barrel from being under 18"?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

How can an angle cut save the barrel from being under 18"?

By not square-cutting the barrel end to less than min legal length.  But it depends how legal length is measured.  And we have no way to know what was in the mind of the person who cut the barrel, so everything here is just speculation. 

 

I believe legal barrel minimums were established to address "sawed-off shotgun" concealability.  (I could be wrong).   So logically the longest length would seem to be the point of legal measurement.  Perhaps a LE officer would care to clarify.  

[Constable Nelson #11784]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

By not square-cutting the barrel end to less than min legal length.  But it depends how legal length is measured.  And we have no way to know what was in the mind of the person who cut the barrel, so everything here is just speculation. 

 

I believe legal barrel minimums were established to address "sawed-off shotgun" concealability.  (I could be wrong).   So logically the longest length would seem to be the point of legal measurement.  Perhaps a LE officer would care to clarify.  

Agreed.  If that is in fact why it was cut like that presumably it was done with the idea that if ANY part of the barrel was 18", then it was legal? 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I can't see where this is an illegal SASS mod. As long as the barrels are at least 18 in AND you are BATF legal, I don't see the problem.

Yes, it looks a little odd, yes, the pattern could be a little off but, hey, it's your gun. I'd be worried about how the ATF sees this more than anything.

[Chief Rick]

1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I can't see where this is an illegal SASS mod. As long as the barrels are at least 18 in AND you are BATF legal, I don't see the problem.

Yes, it looks a little odd, yes, the pattern could be a little off but, hey, it's your gun. I'd be worried about how the ATF sees this more than anything.

PWB has spoken - illegal mod, regardless of BATFE.

[evil dogooder]

5 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

By not square-cutting the barrel end to less than min legal length.  But it depends how legal length is measured.  And we have no way to know what was in the mind of the person who cut the barrel, so everything here is just speculation. 

 

I believe legal barrel minimums were established to address "sawed-off shotgun" concealability.  (I could be wrong).   So logically the longest length would seem to be the point of legal measurement.  Perhaps a LE officer would care to clarify.  

  I'm not an officer but I've worked with the dnr checking barrel lengths at the gun store.    The shortest part is what they go off of.   If your cut isn't square and part is below 18" your gun is illegal

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

PWB has spoken - illegal mod, regardless of BATFE.

He quoted a rule from the SHB, didn't "spoken" anything. "Barrels may be shortened or crowned", "Shotgun barrels must maintain a length of at least 18 inches."

If those two are met, what's the problem.? If I cut off my '97 barrel and it isn't a perfect 90 degree cut, is that illegal? Hardly. Why do we want to jump on someone and say what they're doing is illegal when the rules do not back that up?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, evil dogooder said:

  I'm not an officer but I've worked with the dnr checking barrel lengths at the gun store.    The shortest part is what they go off of.   If your cut isn't square and part is below 18" your gun is illegal

Thanks.  That's helpful. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. 

SOURCE (p.5)

[Chief Rick]

1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

He quoted a rule from the SHB, didn't "spoken" anything. "Barrels may be shortened or crowned", "Shotgun barrels must maintain a length of at least 18 inches."

If those two are met, what's the problem.? If I cut off my '97 barrel and it isn't a perfect 90 degree cut, is that illegal? Hardly. Why do we want to jump on someone and say what they're doing is illegal when the rules do not back that up?

Do what you want then.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

8 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

By not square-cutting the barrel end to less than min legal length.  But it depends how legal length is measured.  And we have no way to know what was in the mind of the person who cut the barrel, so everything here is just speculation. 

 

I believe legal barrel minimums were established to address "sawed-off shotgun" concealability.  (I could be wrong).   So logically the longest length would seem to be the point of legal measurement.  Perhaps a LE officer would care to clarify.  

First off, I'm an SOT holder...just a little background for ya.

 

I tell ya one thing, I wouldn't want to explain/argue the legality of an angled muzzle to an ATF auditor. Regardless of whether it's legal, it'd be a pain in the ass discussion that could very likely lead to a somewhat drawn out exercise in frustration. Yes, I can show an AK muzzlebreak and try and explain that it's the same thing...but trust me, this wouldn't be a slam dunk discussion.

 

PS: Typical "LE" doesn't know crap about these issues. You have to go to the BATFE. But you probably already know that cuz you know a lot about a lot...

 

Phantom

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just an FYI re posting the rules re external mods with a link to the FMC:

 

That was NOT a statement suggesting that the "angle cut" is illegal. 

 

If there is a question regarding the legality of a questionable external modification, the BEST method for obtaining an "official" ruling is to submit the form requesting consideration.

If the ROC determines that a modification is already allowed under existing rules, the submitter will be notified.

(E.g., in the case of the "Lever Lock", it was determined to be an internal mod, not subject to the approval process)

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

We do know that some (a lot) of your posts are intended to make folks think (yes, I know, hard for some) instead of just handing out the answer.

Much appreciated.

[El Chapo]

On 8/16/2021 at 8:14 AM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

The short side of the "Salami" cut MUST also NOT be less than 18 inches.  The thing to remember - - - - The BATFE does NOT HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR.

 

That doesn't seem right to me.  A lot of muzzle devices for rifles aren't straight and nobody is saying the barrel length is measured from the shortest distance.

 

The rule of thumb is from the bolt to the end of the barrel.

 

The BATFE doesn't make the law.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Chacón said:

The BATFE doesn't make the law.

And believe it or not, a lot of BATFE auditors don't know the laws.

 

 

[Chief Rick]

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Just an FYI re posting the rules re external mods with a link to the FMC:

 

That was NOT a statement suggesting that the "angle cut" is illegal. 

 

If there is a question regarding the legality of a questionable external modification, the BEST method for obtaining an "official" ruling is to submit the form requesting consideration.

If the ROC determines that a modification is already allowed under existing rules, the submitter will be notified.

(E.g., in the case of the "Lever Lock", it was determined to be an internal mod, not subject to the approval process)

PWB,

 

I respect your position and the crap that you have to put up with regarding answering some questions that some believe should not even have to be asked.

 

In this specific question, I am trying to prevent this particular shooter from going to a match and having the match director deem his modifications are an illegal external mod based on what you quoted.  But what if it wasn't noticed prior and the MD deemed this an illegal external mod after the match  for using a gun that is not legal based on the SHB p. 32?

 

I could definitely see some shooter's complain if they were beaten by this person that the gun was not legal.

 

If one thing is clear based on the responses, it could go either way for the shooter.  As guns don't typically come from the manufacturer with barrels cut like that, I can't say "common sense should dictate" that's it not illegal because it offers no clear advantage.  Conversely, I'd say common sense would dictate that it is an illegal external mod.