Lawdog Dago Dom 1,752 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 How big is too big for a gun safe on a first floor? No basement, just a crawl space. Home built in 1989. Joists appear to be 16" on center. One big safe or two smaller ones? Not even close to being an engineer, so all feedback is welcomed. Thanks, LDD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DeaconKC 1,755 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) Okay, first off plan to keep the safe as close as possible to heavy supports. You may need to go under the house to locate them. Usually against an outside wall will have good support. Plan on using bolts into wall studs to keep them flush against the wall if narrow ones to avoid tipping. Edited December 12, 2020 by DeaconKC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnWesleyHardin 77 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 I think you will be fine with one unless it falls through the floor. In that case one was to heavy. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Badlands Bob #61228 1,882 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 If it was going to be a big gun safe (1,000 lbs or more) I would seriously consider putting a concrete block pier in the crawl space supporting the floor joists at the safe location. It would be relatively cheap to do and would give you peace of mind. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ozark Shark 379 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 I've had a Liberty Fatboy Jr. installed in a closet in my fourth floor condo for five years. It's an all wood frame five story building with 2x6 studs and 2x12 floor joists on 16 inch centers. The safe weighs 750 pounds empty and I would estimate everything stored in the safe adds another 250 pounds. That amounts to @150 pounds/sq. ft. Being installed backed against one structural wall and with another very near a side, I've had zero issues. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pee Wee #15785 93 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Put it on the outside wall so it is close to floor plate and sets on 2 or 3 floor joists. On a inside wall I would sureup the floor under it and get the biggest one you can buy. Remember guns increase just like rabbets so any size safe is going to be to small in no time. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lawdog Dago Dom 1,752 Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Ozark Shark said: I've had a Liberty Fatboy Jr. installed in a closet in my fourth floor condo for five years. It's an all wood frame five story building with 2x6 studs and 2x12 floor joists on 16 inch centers. The safe weighs 750 pounds empty and I would estimate everything stored in the safe adds another 250 pounds. That amounts to @150 pounds/sq. ft. Being installed backed against one structural wall and with another very near a side, I've had zero issues. Got that one now in a basement, so weight is no issue. But may need another (or two) on a standard joist/plywood floor. So weight would be an issue. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Michigan Slim 5,887 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said: If it was going to be a big gun safe (1,000 lbs or more) I would seriously consider putting a concrete block pier in the crawl space supporting the floor joists at the safe location. It would be relatively cheap to do and would give you peace of mind. I had to do this when the safe door started swinging open with no help. Had to move my ammo safe to an outside wall also to be closer to the foundation. A couple blocks and a jack will run you less than $30.00. Be sure to jack it up some later to account for some sinking if your crawl space has gravel in it like mine. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Michigan Slim 5,887 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 And.... Expect to hear popping and some small cracking as you wheel it over the floor to get it where you want it. Don't fret. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Kloehr 981 Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) If the building is at all built to reasonable standards, a 1/2 ton (1,000 pounds) safe should not be a problem. Two safes... Now you need to look at which direction the joists run; two safes on the same joists would be an overload on those joists, two safes on different joists might not be an overload. Somewhere around 30 or 40 pounds per square foot becomes an issue, and that square footage is measured on those same joists. Across the span of those joists. Greatly simplified, building codes have more detail. Consider a safe that spans two joists on 16" centers, and the span of those joists is 10' between supports... That is really "about" 3 feet wide because of sub floors spreading the load. 3 X 10 X 40 = 1200 pounds. Across 3 joists (a bigger safe), really about 4-1/2 feet wide, assuming same 10' span. 4.5 X 10 X 40 = 1,800 pounds. I am not a structural engineer nor a civil engineer, just spitballing. Don't see a problem unless you put two heavy safes on the same joists. that could easily be over 2,000 pounds on two joists. Over 3500 on 3 joists with two large safes. If this is confusing, I think I could make a drawing showing why joist direction is a consideration. Edited December 12, 2020 by John Kloehr 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 55 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 I would get 2. A little one for yourself and a big one for Short Cake. Let her pick the colors! Chancy 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Smoken D 2,052 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Generally 1# short of collapse should work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lawdog Dago Dom 1,752 Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 1 hour ago, John Kloehr said: If the building is at all built to reasonable standards, a 1/2 ton (1,000 pounds) safe should not be a problem. Two safes... Now you need to look at which direction the joists run; two safes on the same joists would be an overload on those joists, two safes on different joists might not be an overload. Somewhere around 30 or 40 pounds per square foot becomes an issue, and that square footage is measured on those same joists. Across the span of those joists. Greatly simplified, building codes have more detail. Consider a safe that spans two joists on 16" centers, and the span of those joists is 10' between supports... That is really "about" 3 feet wide because of sub floors spreading the load. 3 X 10 X 40 = 1200 pounds. Across 3 joists (a bigger safe), really about 4-1/2 feet wide, assuming same 10' span. 4.5 X 10 X 40 = 1,800 pounds. I am not a structural engineer nor a civil engineer, just spitballing. Don't see a problem unless you put two heavy safes on the same joists. that could easily be over 2,000 pounds on two joists. Over 3500 on 3 joists with two large safes. If this is confusing, I think I could make a drawing showing why joist direction is a consideration. I see what you mean. Similar to the Federal Bridge Act of 1974, regarding size, weight and load on trucks. The heavier the load, the more axles to spread it out over the pavement. Thanks 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lawdog Dago Dom 1,752 Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 40 minutes ago, Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 said: I would get 2. A little one for yourself and a big one for Short Cake. Let her pick the colors! Chancy I just read her that and she is blowing you kisses Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lawdog Dago Dom 1,752 Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Michigan Slim said: And.... Expect to hear popping and some small cracking as you wheel it over the floor to get it where you want it. Don't fret. Any popping or cracking is probably from my knees. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sedalia Dave 12,707 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Will My Raised Floor Support a Safe? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Runamuck, SASS #49216L 54 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Michigan Slim said: And.... Expect to hear popping and some small cracking as you wheel it over the floor to get it where you want it. Don't fret. Be sure to miss any floor heater vents, they will make a far worse sound than popping and cracking..... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Still hand Bill 102 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Consider a safe from zanotti armory. They come in parts and then assemble in place. Makes moving a lot easier. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
watab kid 1,055 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 "...Okay, first off plan to keep the safe as close as possible to heavy supports. You may need to go under the house to locate them. ........Put it on the outside wall so it is close to floor plate and sets on 2 or 3 floor joists............. I would seriously consider putting a concrete block pier in the crawl space supporting the floor joists at the safe location. It would be relatively cheap to do and would give you peace of mind........" all of this is good advice , its my approach to helping a friend here with a nice crawl space condition , his home is well built and has a solid foundation of CMU with a concrete floor in the crawl space , i know the safe & contents will not be the only load , something will get piled on top and around it close , ammo most likely , that adds up quickly , the residential UBC building code dictates the design loading for floors in structures , you can feel quite confident it will hold that load on that square footage as its slightly overdesigned by regulation , but i would caution exceeding it as the design is intended to keep you safe , a good thing about crawl spaces is it gives you access to reinforce the areas you want to , bad thing is all crawl spaces are not the same - here we have concrete floors in them in most developed areas {NO i dont really know why they dont put in a basement unless the water table is inches down] but there are rural areas where they are dirt - not compacted soil , stability is questionable , you can use an oversized footprint 3/4 inch plywod over the floor to disperse the load over more joists as well , put flooring or some carpet on it , one needs to see the condition to render a good advice , anyway you do this is better than nothing at all , Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Duncan 1,310 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 19 hours ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said: How big is too big for a gun safe on a first floor? No basement, just a crawl space. Home built in 1989. Joists appear to be 16" on center. One big safe or two smaller ones? Not even close to being an engineer, so all feedback is welcomed. Thanks, LDD What size are the floor joists? 2x6? 2x8? Solid or manufactured joists? Makes a big difference. Simpler just to add blocking (as others have suggested) in the crawl space. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 127 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Your house is over designed for the most part. I really doubt that a large deep freeze full of meat would be any less of a load per square foot then your gun safe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hashknife Cowboy 480 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 buy smaller and disperse the weight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J-BAR #18287 6,001 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Just curious, when you invite some of us older, heavier cow folk over for a party, are we gonna hafta step on a scale at the front door?? 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Michigan Slim 5,887 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 52 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said: Just curious, when you invite some of us older, heavier cow folk over for a party, are we gonna hafta step on a scale at the front door?? He would just wave me right in..... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lawdog Dago Dom 1,752 Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Michigan Slim said: He would just wave me right in..... Slim is correct. But, to not stress our friends that attract a bit more gravity than the others, there is a heated outbuilding with a concrete floor that will accommodate a party into the wee hours. For Shortcake and me that is anything after 9pm. Y'all just pick up and lock up before ya go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J-BAR #18287 6,001 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, Michigan Slim said: He would just wave me right in..... Well, my point is, you get four or five guys huddled in one spot telling a joke, that’s 800 to 1000 lbs, and who thinks twice about that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 55 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 On 12/13/2020 at 11:03 AM, J-BAR #18287 said: Well, my point is, you get four or five guys huddled in one spot telling a joke, that’s 800 to 1000 lbs, and who thinks twice about that? There it is.....The point that is on point. And that joker will be in the middle of the room, not next to a load bearing wall in a corner. Chancy 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Baltimore Ed 96 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) I would disagree on one point, that being placing your safe on an outside wall. Thugs have been known to cut through walls and pull safes out. Your house has pillars down the center [at least it should unless we’re talking a tiny house.] Would also suggest not putting it where it’s visible through a window that’s facing the street. Don’t advertise. My safe was 1400 lb mty, heaven knows what it weighs now. Hasn’t fallen through yet. Edited December 15, 2020 by Baltimore Ed 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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