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John Barleycorn, SASS #76982

China answers primer shortage

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My lady just suggested... Buy (Wall Street) stock in Federal, and Ruger, and Smith and Wesson, and GM and while you are at it, Volkswagen and Foxxconn. That is how to make them all American companies. Own them.

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I speak only for myself, and since it is a public forum, I will.

If I have to have something, and can't find it anywhere else, I may have no other choice in the matter.

If I do not have to have something, I will pass on it, if made there.

I don't give a rip how cheap it is, if I can do without it, I will.

In this case, the primer inventory should come back, at some point...as will a lot of things. 

I will wait for that, and simply shoot my flintlocks.

Flint comes from Great Britain, and France. While not too gun friendly, they are better than china. 

 

W.K.

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I will not unilaterally declare a moratorium on Chinese-made products.  1) Americans will not work for Chinese-level wages.  Therefore, many American products are not affordable.  2)  I have been there, and have seen how hard-working the people are,  how terrified they are of their government, and how kind they are to visitors.  I will not punish the people in hope of harming their government.  It doesn't work that way.

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8 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I would be concerned that the Chinese would sell us corrosive primers - possibly without identifying them as corrosive.  Some European primers are sold in the US.  I load with French-made shotgun primers that load and perform quite well.

Very good point but I think it would be more nefarious than just neglecting labeling. 
I wasn’t going to mention this because folks may think I am paranoid or a bit crazy but I honestly feel that one day, maybe soon, we will be at war with China and I think there will be Chinese boots on American soil. Why wouldn’t they ship us primers with corrosives in them. Might be less rifles firing back at them if the bores are ruined...

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Being in the military, once-upon-a-time, I can say that the average folks of a country are not necessarily reflective of the government of that country. The Indian population, especially in the rural locations, are kind, and sweet, and friendly...mostly.  My nephew teaches English in China, and just moved to South Korea, and is glad to leave, although he really liked the Chinese people he met.  They were once a strong ally, and together we fought the Japanese. Ruth Graham was raised over there, since her parents were Christian missionaries. The Chinese emigrants, helped build this country, in the 19th century.

I have read that the Russians are aggravated, and puzzled, and jealous, that Americans and Chinese are so close, despite major differences.    

In order to change an oppressive dictatorship, one must either go down the violence road, or the economic road. Diplomacy is an iffy position, with an entrenched dictatorship, but it is something we have to keep trying, and hoping for the best. This dictatorship has been entrenched since the late 1940's. There may be other ways, to approach all this. Love, perhaps? Economics, and money, may be the way, since money, or a medium of exchange, has to be there, for a country, and it's people, to survive. I hate to support, and give any kind of validity to, a dictatorship, and allow them to keep being funded, thus perpetuating the dictatorship. I don't want a dictatorship to have any kind of legitimacy, and I am sure no freedom loving person does.

I see the point of helping the oppressed. I see the point in not supporting a dictatorship, Change has to happen, and there has to be a catalyst, preferably, a non-violent one.

The eternal choice of moral man....to endure oppression...or to resist.

This will be fixed, someday, along with everything else. Now...it is a tough problem to address.

 

W.K.

 

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China is a dictatorship all right, but it is surely a wiser one than, for instance, Russia. When China lifted many socialist controls, the economy exploded into action. When Russia did, everybody there seemed to stand around blinking, waiting for someone to tell them what to do.

 

The theory of the Chinese Communist Party is that they can create a dictatorship that actually works, and is therefore stable. They are going to give the concept a run for the money. It's hard to think of another dictatorship that has delivered material prosperity. Venezuela maybe? [That's a joke, pards]

 

Our challenge is to prove them wrong, and not just with platitudes and hopes.

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15 hours ago, Ozark Shark said:

20 years ago China was dirt cheap for manufacturing, but times have changed.  As of 2019, the average product can be manufactured in the US for just 5% more than in China according to Seller-Nexus.  Understand that's total cost including shipping to the point of sale (i.e. the US).

 

Between the negative impacts of supply chain disruptions (COVID), rampant intellectual property theft by the Chinese and fast rising wages, China has lost its hold on global manufacturing.  Prior to COVID, because of these issues, manufacturing had begun reshoring to the US and North America.  That trickle has become a torrent after the supply chain disruptions of 2020.  And if a manufacturer is not bringing the manufacturing back to the US, Mexico is the next location they are choosing to get it out of China and shorten their US supply chain. 

 

Technology is also playing its part.  In some industries low cost, Industry 4.0 robotics and co-bots, AI process controllers and 3D printing are allowing the US to produce at costs lower than the Chinese. 

 

Finally, thanks to China's "One Child" policy, they have a fast aging workforce that can't even be replaced by the next generation.  Expansion is impossible.  They won't even be able to maintain status quo.  Central planning has killed them economically.  Despite all the noise in the MSM, there is no way the 21 Century will be the Chinese Century.  The Chinese Miracle touted by the MSM is a debt bomb.  "China’s economy roughly quadrupled in size since 2000, but its debt load has increased by a factor of twenty-four."  They have so many nonperforming loans that are now backed by more loans from the same Chinese banks that when the first card tumbles, it will take the whole house.  Their economy will gridlock and go into full collapse.  They are past the point of no return.  Here's a good summary:

 

https://zeihan.com/a-failure-of-leadership-part-iii-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-china/ 

 

 

Great recap. As a life long manufacturing guy, I could easily grasp the concept and theory here.

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9 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

China is a dictatorship all right, but it is surely a wiser one than, for instance, Russia. When China lifted many socialist controls, the economy exploded into action. When Russia did, everybody there seemed to stand around blinking, waiting for someone to tell them what to do.

 

The theory of the Chinese Communist Party is that they can create a dictatorship that actually works, and is therefore stable. They are going to give the concept a run for the money. It's hard to think of another dictatorship that has delivered material prosperity. Venezuela maybe? [That's a joke, pards]

 

Our challenge is to prove them wrong, and not just with platitudes and hopes.

From the early 1990s through 2012, Jiang and Hu did many things to modernize the Chinese economy but they never really allowed true market forces to dictate the process.  Their constant interference to hold off the needed deflation of market bubbles has led the MSM to declare China an economic "miracle" as if China is immune to economic forces.  It's not.  What Jiang and Hu actually created was a debt bomb for Xi.  Xi response has been to reverse course, reducing freedoms and imposing more central control over the people and the economy including propping up failed banks and real estate markets to save face for the party.  The results?  Xi's policies have grown the debt bomb  exponentially.  Example:  China currently has a $52 trillion real estate bubble; and a not insignificant portion of it is "invested" in empty commercial buildings and unoccupied residences purchased by groups of middle class women who have pooled their savings to buy these properties.  The residential building long ago out stripped demand given China's slowing population growth and quickly aging population thanks to the "One Child Policy."  And Xi's policies have not only halted business inflow, but have reversed it at this point.  As a result, it's very likely that those commercial and residential buildings will never see a paying occupant.  When, not if, Xi is no longer able to keep that bubble from popping, the sudden loss of cash flow from those real estate loans will take the rest of banking with it since Xi has been using the real estate inflow to prop up massive amounts of nonperforming commercial loans that have been backing earlier issued nonperforming commercial loans.  He has fully interconnected their debt bubbles.  Ah the glory of central planning and control.  My guess is that the level of sabre rattling will increase as Xi needs to distract the populace from the economic collapse.  If you look at the military preparations of China's neighbors, they are anticipating that outcome.

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I will say this: it may be very easy to criticize China's leadership, but the truth is our own house isn't exactly in order right now. When we no longer have leftist governors enacting whatever laws they please, no longer have cops shooting minorities under questionable circumstances and no longer have to witness people burning and looting their own cities and dragging innocent people out of their cars, then we'll be in a better position to lecture the Chinese on their laws and their human rights issues. They have their problems obviously, but so do we.

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2 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

I will say this: it may be very easy to criticize China's leadership, but the truth is our own house isn't exactly in order right now. When we no longer have leftist governors enacting whatever laws they please, no longer have cops shooting minorities under questionable circumstances and no longer have to witness people burning and looting their own cities and dragging innocent people out of their cars, then we'll be in a better position to lecture the Chinese on their laws and their human rights issues. They have their problems obviously, but so do we.

Amen.

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One person from China I truly admire is that General Tso. He knew chicken.

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"...Competition is fierce, cutthroat and not always legal. If the US is unable to keep ahead or at least even with the foreign makers you can hardly blame it on Joe Sixpack...."

 

sadly so and in many cases no choices to be made even if willing to pay more for american made as current regs restrict what can be made and done here anymore , 

 

 

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On 10/13/2020 at 9:10 PM, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

One person from China I truly admire is that General Tso. He knew chicken.

 

and he still my favorite.  Had him for dinner last night--and leftovers tonight

 

 

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On 10/13/2020 at 10:21 AM, Ozark Shark said:

From the early 1990s through 2012, Jiang and Hu did many things to modernize the Chinese economy but they never really allowed true market forces to dictate the process.  Their constant interference to hold off the needed deflation of market bubbles has led the MSM to declare China an economic "miracle" as if China is immune to economic forces.  It's not.  What Jiang and Hu actually created was a debt bomb for Xi.  Xi response has been to reverse course, reducing freedoms and imposing more central control over the people and the economy including propping up failed banks and real estate markets to save face for the party.  The results?  Xi's policies have grown the debt bomb  exponentially.  Example:  China currently has a $52 trillion real estate bubble; and a not insignificant portion of it is "invested" in empty commercial buildings and unoccupied residences purchased by groups of middle class women who have pooled their savings to buy these properties.  The residential building long ago out stripped demand given China's slowing population growth and quickly aging population thanks to the "One Child Policy."  And Xi's policies have not only halted business inflow, but have reversed it at this point.  As a result, it's very likely that those commercial and residential buildings will never see a paying occupant.  When, not if, Xi is no longer able to keep that bubble from popping, the sudden loss of cash flow from those real estate loans will take the rest of banking with it since Xi has been using the real estate inflow to prop up massive amounts of nonperforming commercial loans that have been backing earlier issued nonperforming commercial loans.  He has fully interconnected their debt bubbles.  Ah the glory of central planning and control.  My guess is that the level of sabre rattling will increase as Xi needs to distract the populace from the economic collapse.  If you look at the military preparations of China's neighbors, they are anticipating that outcome.

We're not a China neighbor,  but the USMC is feverishly working on completion of Camp Blaz on Guam. First new USMC base since 1952. 

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NO!!!

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On 10/12/2020 at 11:40 AM, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

For all the complaints about Chinese-made garbage, Norinco's guns and ammo were always 100% reliable. They can build stuff right when they want to.

 

I have been using a Norinco coach shotgun for CAS for 15 years and never had a problem, it just keeps on ticking.

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I just walked around my house and randomly checked the country of manufacture on a bunch of things. Logitech mouse - Suzhou, China. Vista keyboard, China. Crocs, China. Black & Decker toaster, China. Black & Decker coffee maker, China. Rifle sling, Vietnam. Toilet, Vietnam. Carhartt shirt, Mexico. Vizio TV, Taiwan. Ashley Furniture chair, Vietnam. Several ball caps, China. Half a dozen TV/DVD remotes, China/Taiwan. Hi Point C9, USA!

 

I don't need primers, but if I did, and they were reliable, hell yeah, I'd buy 'em for $25/1000, (edit) IF Federal, Winchester, CCI, Remington, etc. weren't available at normal prices.

Edited by Three Foot Johnson

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Wow, I find it hard to believe some folks here say no to primers but, have no problem buying other stuff from China...or maybe they don’t know they do...look at the labels folks.

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1 hour ago, Nugget Joe said:

Wow, I find it hard to believe some folks here say no to primers but, have no problem buying other stuff from China...or maybe they don’t know they do...look at the labels folks.

I think it’s more about if you have the option. I always like to buy USA made it the quality and price is competitive. Allot of USA made items are worth extra just because they are better quality. Then my next selection would be another capitalist country or someone we have an alliance with . Then last and least the commies . But I understand there is so much manufactured in China these days it’s impossible not to have Chinese made products. 
I just think we should put a little effort into supporting the companies and countries that support us . Not the countries that are opposed to our way of life . 

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It's strange to think there might be a lot of folks in China who are resentful of westerners who choose "not" to remember China as a significant player in the Allied victory of WWII.

 

There are those too (over there) who probably are resentful about the Japanese retaliation after the Doolittle raid early in 1942 … 250k+ civilians.

 

I'm probably all wrong … nothing new there (someone will correct me) … AND … there has been plenty of "oh sh…s" that have happened since then to wipe out all the "good job" points … BUT … politics aside ... I bet they are a lot like us ... ^_^

 

Check this out ...

https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/31/opinions/china-wwii-forgotten-ally-rana-mitter/index.html

  

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1 hour ago, Patagonia Pete said:

It's strange to think there might be a lot of folks in China who are resentful of westerners who choose "not" to remember China as a significant player in the Allied victory of WWII.

 

There are those too (over there) who probably are resentful about the Japanese retaliation after the Doolittle raid early in 1942 … 250k+ civilians.

 

I'm probably all wrong … nothing new there (someone will correct me) … AND … there has been plenty of "oh sh…s" that have happened since then to wipe out all the "good job" points … BUT … politics aside ... I bet they are a lot like us ... ^_^

 

Check this out ...

https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/31/opinions/china-wwii-forgotten-ally-rana-mitter/index.html

  

Thanks Pete. I had forgotten about China’s contributions and losses in WW2. 

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1 hour ago, Patagonia Pete said:

It's strange to think there might be a lot of folks in China who are resentful of westerners who choose "not" to remember China as a significant player in the Allied victory of WWII.

 

There are those too (over there) who probably are resentful about the Japanese retaliation after the Doolittle raid early in 1942 … 250k+ civilians.

 

I'm probably all wrong … nothing new there (someone will correct me) … AND … there has been plenty of "oh sh…s" that have happened since then to wipe out all the "good job" points … BUT … politics aside ... I bet they are a lot like us ... ^_^

 

Check this out ...

https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/31/opinions/china-wwii-forgotten-ally-rana-mitter/index.html

  

It’s funny how things change, now we are allies with Germany, Japan and Italy . And a adversary’s with China and Russia whom we partnered with in WW2

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1 hour ago, Buckshot Bob said:

I think it’s more about if you have the option. I always like to buy USA made it the quality and price is competitive. Allot of USA made items are worth extra just because they are better quality. Then my next selection would be another capitalist country or someone we have an alliance with . Then last and least the commies . But I understand there is so much manufactured in China these days it’s impossible not to have Chinese made products. 
I just think we should put a little effort into supporting the companies and countries that support us . Not the countries that are opposed to our way of life . 

Totally agree, USA first, for anything...

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Everyone that has NO...Zero products in their home made in China raise your hands. 

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America has brought upon itself the situation we are in.

We laughed at the small little foreign cars with good gas milage. The big 3 were arrogant and ignored the writing on the wall. Our design and manufacturing quality lagged for 30 years allowing the Japanese and Germans to capture a large share of our market.

The UAW wouldn't concede on wages and benefits which continued to drive the price of US cars up and up. You literally can't buy an all American made car in the US.

Environmental regulations and Unions destroyed our steel industry. Why is it Japan, who has no iron ore can ship in raw materials, turn it into steel products and ship that all over he world at prices we can't come close to?

The USA was the worlds producer of electronics up until the late 60's. Japan through innovation and efficient production completely took 100% of our market. Eventually Korea, China and others stepped in. You can't find a single piece of electronic anything that is 100% made in America. Why Ge, Motorola etc hand the same blind eye to the world market and thought they couldn't be beat.

China controls its, people and its economy through hardline laws and brute force if needed. We designed a hospital in China that was being built in the middle of no where along with a completely new city. Why? Because the government has a very aggressive program of building and education to enrich their peoples lives. We were told that for a patient to see a doctor would be a 4 day wait once they go to the clinic. Arrogant us, said thats crazy. The response was, before they had no doctor and no means of medical help.

In China if they need a product that they don't make they go to a factory and tell them to make this. Ignoring patents.

If we want to bring back manufacturing it will take decades. All the former factories are either torn down, or so outdated they are worthless. Labor is the big restrictor, not materials and process.  Even if we can bring some it back it will be predominately robotic. You don't have to pay them they don't strike, and if you don't need it anymore you shut it off!

We are a country completely dependent upon other nations to produce the majority of what we need.

Ike

 

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On 10/12/2020 at 9:28 AM, Cholla said:

No. But it would be great if half the other reloaders would so Federal could catch up to the demand and be on the shelf. From China's track record, the primers would be made from some toxic metal and would only go off 50% of the time.

If they went off 1/2 of the time, they’d be great for working on flinching! Lol

Edited by Canton Chris

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