Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Recommended Posts

The most common criticism I hear is in regards to the dress.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The most common criticism I hear is in regards to the dress.

 

As have I. -_-

OLG 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The most common criticism I hear is in regards to the dress.

We had a guy that was interested in CAS, he had all the guns but said and I quote," I love the hardware but I can't stand the Halloween outfit" :o

 

We told him maybe he should just stay home!:lol:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But those same folks will come to a 3 gun totally decked our in camo and  with body armor looking like they just stepped out of the streets of Fallujah

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

We had a guy that was interested in CAS, he had all the guns but said and I quote," I love the hardware but I can't stand the Halloween outfit" :o

 

We told him maybe he should just stay home!:lol:

I hope yer kidding...right?

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

But those same folks will come to a 3 gun totally decked our in camo and  with body armor looking like they just stepped out of the streets of Fallujah

Yes, because it's modern wear. That's more attractive to the average person than 19th century dress.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I hope yer kidding...right?

No we did tell him that he shouldn’t come out if he was not going to abide by the rules . We also told him he didn’t have to get crazy just a long sleeved shirt and no ball cap or tennis shoes. He still thought the whole dress up thing was stupid!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The dress code is second on the list of excuses to not get involved from the people I've talked to. The main thing was the cost. Observers are always interested in CAS, until they find ask the median cost to get involved. I usually tell them $2,000 to $2,500 at the low end and $4,000 to $5,000 on the higher end. That's a lot of money for guns which, for most practical purposes, have no other use (except the shotgun maybe). Yes, I know that the guns could be used for home defense, etc......but why.

 

Let's face it, the getting in for $1,200 days are long gone. This isn't a game for people with no money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Typical discussion on the wire. We're supposed to be bringing up ideas on expanding the market, keeping SASS membership intact and or growing. The poster asked that we focus on that. I didn't get half way through the first page and we were off on rules discussions and process, adding different guns to the mix, etc.. How does that increase membership?

The SASS demographics is the issue. The people interested in shooting this sport, yes it's a sport, are those who grew up watching or listening to the westerns of the 30's, 40' 50's and 60's.We also grew up in a culture that accepted guns and understood them. So the demographics indicate that if you find someone who is 40 and shooting SASS they are an anomaly. OK I knew there are Buckaroos etc. But a very small percentage of the membership.

Here's what we have tried;

Dress up and staff a table at the gun shows. Guns and videos with handouts.

Advertised on the local radio stations.

Advertised on the local TV station, $500 for 15 seconds not run during prime time.

Set up a table outside of Cabella's, dressed up and handouts.

No advertisements in magazines or newspapers as no one reads those anymore.

Set up our own Facebook page.

Results over the 5 years we did this........2 members. And they are over 50!

Most new members come from referrals from current shooters talking people they know into coming out to a shoot.

 

Unless someone can figure out how to attract 30 to 50 year olds SASS will continue to run out of members.

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

No we did tell him that he shouldn’t come out if he was not going to abide by the rules . We also told him he didn’t have to get crazy just a long sleeved shirt and no ball cap or tennis shoes. He still thought the whole dress up thing was stupid!

Perhaps you should have emphasized the minimal dress code... Rather than putting him in the defensive...

 

Attitude is critical when first talking with a potential new shooter... And I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know. 

 

Phantom

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

The dress code is second on the list of excuses to not get involved from the people I've talked to. The main thing was the cost. Observers are always interested in CAS, until they find ask the median cost to get involved. I usually tell them $2,000 to $2,500 at the low end and $4,000 to $5,000 on the higher end. That's a lot of money for guns which, for most practical purposes, have no other use (except the shotgun maybe). Yes, I know that the guns could be used for home defense, etc......but why.

 

Let's face it, the getting in for $1,200 days are long gone. This isn't a game for people with no money.

Compared to many well attended games/Sports, this game is cheap.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The people interested in shooting this sport, yes it's a sport, are those who grew up watching or listening to the westerns of the 30's, 40' 50's and 60's.

Really?

 

I didn't. Many of my shooting friends didn't...so...???

 

Phantom

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always believed that any expansion of the customer base should be directed at women.

We offer more to women in general than any other shooting sport.

First of all - we are pretty much a beginner friendly sport. Basic firearms safety is a minimum.

We offer a sport in which the whole family can compete against and learn from one another.

The costume/dress aspect of the sport appeals to many ladies and they enjoy the finery.

Just like they say in the bar business. Bring in the ladies and the men will follow along.

 

There are other demographics to which this sport can be introduced but not one as broad as the women of the world.

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

How close were those IPSC targets? :huh:

What I posted, was actual feedback I received from folks. Not second hand.

OLG 

The IPSC/USPSA targets are from right in your face to some at 20-25 yards. You will see them out further sometimes. But many of the closer targets will have no shoots around them where you are penalized for hitting them. Also hardcover where the shot does not count if you hit it. You'll see a lot at 10 to 15 yards. They also use steel poppers, small and large, sometimes at the longer distances.  There are also moving swinging targets. So although some targets are very close, there's much more variety in the distances and available target size.

 

When I talk to shooters about SASS the negative opinions from others are, dressing up, target distance and size and the very low powere factor. A lot of them think the guns are very cool.

 

All of the action shooting sports are a balance of speed vs accuracy.  But they fall at different points on the scale between the two depending on the targets and scoring methods. My opinion is SASS is the closest to pure speed, next USPSA, then IDPA followed by ICORE.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

But many of the closer targets will have no shoots around them where you are penalized for hitting them

We have no shoots too...called the ground... And we cannot re-engage.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

The IPSC/USPSA targets are from right in your face to some at 20-25 yards. You will see them out further sometimes. But many of the closer targets will have no shoots around them where you are penalized for hitting them. Also hardcover where the shot does not count if you hit it. You'll see a lot at 10 to 15 yards. They also use steel poppers, small and large, sometimes at the longer distances.  There are also moving swinging targets. So although some targets are very close, there's much more variety in the distances and available target size.

 

When I talk to shooters about SASS the negative opinions from others are, dressing up, target distance and size and the very low powere factor. A lot of them think the guns are very cool.

 

All of the action shooting sports are a balance of speed vs accuracy.  But they fall at different points on the scale between the two depending on the targets and scoring methods. My opinion is SASS is the closest to pure speed, next USPSA, then IDPA followed by ICORE.

 

TY!

That's the IPSC that I remember shooting.

OLG 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

The IPSC/USPSA targets are from right in your face to some at 20-25 yards. .... You'll see a lot at 10 to 15 yards.

There is no target so close or so big that it can't be missed.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So...am a new SASS member with a 16 year old that also just got started, take my quick thoughts considering lack of experience.

 

Talking to my son's friends parents here in Scottsdale, AZ, concern for letting their teenagers start/try the sport seems based on two elements; shooting "big", dangerous cartridges, and the cost if they really want to get involved.  His pals and the parents love the leather and western (again we are in AZ) look yet the current social media stigma of their teen shooting these "large calibers so fast" is something many have spoken about.  I think cost is there as well but it is somewhat offset but the attractiveness of a family and generational activity sport vs. the pressures of high school basketball or cheerleading.  My daughter is 11 and has been to Winter Range multiple years, talking with fellow soccer parents, my wife mentioned she might try SASS. When asked for an explanation of it, other ladies were negative until they saw videos ladies dressed in beautiful attire and shooting...then the interest questions started, "Can you shoot any cowboy gun, is there dances after the girls would enjoy, what other events can teen girls participate in with their moms", etc.

 

Back on page two think it was Mister Badly that mentioned a Greenhorn category that any age can participate in and get the bug....22s and shotguns with easy cost and a safer parental perception for those not wise to the firearm world.  Wonderful idea.   Am sure this thoughts are nothing new, but happy to see such a thread discussing.

 

Shawn, aka Buford Tannen

Edited by Opal669
mis-spell
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

There is no target so close or so big that it can't be missed.

Amen. My first misses shocked me. I'm an old hand at misses now.:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

The dress code is second on the list of excuses to not get involved from the people I've talked to. The main thing was the cost. Observers are always interested in CAS, until they find ask the median cost to get involved. I usually tell them $2,000 to $2,500 at the low end and $4,000 to $5,000 on the higher end. That's a lot of money for guns which, for most practical purposes, have no other use (except the shotgun maybe). Yes, I know that the guns could be used for home defense, etc......but why.

 

Let's face it, the getting in for $1,200 days are long gone. This isn't a game for people with no money.

When I mapped it out, I ballparked the cost at $5,000. Sure, I could get in for maybe half that but then I would be looking to upgrade everything. Probably still will upgrade some things anyway, but will be easier to sell better starter gear than true entry-level.

 

Also if really participating (shooting often), reloading becomes a necessary skill unless budget was never an issue in the first place.

 

I could not build a financial case for reloading 9mm for other sports I participate in, the recovery time is too long. I can break even on reloading for SASS in one year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we accept that the two biggest obstacles are the dress requirements and the cost of equipment where does that leave us?

 

On the high end a person could spend $2,000 on a rifle, another $2,000 on a set of pistols and $1,400 or so on a shotgun.  Add in a good rig and you're close to $6,000.

 

On the low end a pair of Uberti pistols could be had for $900 or so, a Stoeger for $400 and a '92 for around $500 for a total of $1,800, plus the rig.  I don't see how eliminating any one of those makes that big of a difference in cost, at most you can get rid of the rifle and get it down to $1,300.  Yeah I may be off by a $100 one way or the other, but those numbers are close enough to talk about. 


OTH, if you let Greenhorns shoot .22s you can get the price way down, probably under $1,000 for all four guns. 

 

With respect to dress requirements, I think it's all in how it's presented to the prospective shooter.  The requirements are not that stringent.  When I shoot about the only things I'm wearing that I wouldn't otherwise wear are my Ariats and my hat. Jeans, long sleeved shirt, a hat and appropriate footwear and they're good.  

 

Speaking only for myself, if that's too big an ask for a new shooter, what are we left with, no dress requirements at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Opal669 said:

Back on page two think it was Mister Badly that mentioned a Greenhorn category that any age can participate in and get the bug....22s and shotguns with easy cost and a safer parental perception for those not wise to the firearm world.  Wonderful idea.   Am sure this thoughts are nothing new, but happy to see such a thread discussing.

This would address some of the cost of entry, but might also change the sport forever.

 

Maybe start with one pistol. Then a second. Next step up add shotgun. Then add rifle. Basically following the cost stream, except cost of leather complicates the path.

 

One possible change might be some liking pistol only and never getting the rest of the guns. But it might bring more people into the sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

With respect to dress requirements, I think it's all in how it's presented to the prospective shooter.  The requirements are not that stringent.  When I shoot about the only things I'm wearing that I wouldn't otherwise wear are my Ariats and my hat. Jeans, long sleeved shirt, a hat and appropriate footwear and they're good.  

 

Speaking only for myself, if that's too big an ask for a new shooter, what are we left with, no dress requirements at all?

The dress requirements turned out to be much less than I thought they were going to be.

 

A lot of what I heard about before I bit the bullet to get involved is the two costume categories and my impression was there were significant costume requirements across the board.

 

 

Edited by John Kloehr
clarity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started with Jean's a cheap dress shirt from Walmart and a pair of my old cowboy boots and a hat I bought at goodwill for $10. Ao costuming can be done on the cheap 

Rafe 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just like I can see some of the concern with showing videos showcasing only the fastest shooters as a possible obstacle.

 

I also can see the dress issue being over emphasized to new shooters - everyone goes to the gunshow to man the table in their fanciest duds; wooly chaps, $500 hats and fancy stitched boots.

 

I would be sorely tempted to put together an outfit for display (with the accompanying Goodwill price tags) that demonstrates the ease and minimums of meeting the rules.

 

No hat is required - No boots are required.

 

If cost is a factor - Stop telling people they "have" to reload.

Equipment and reloading obstacles could be addressed by simply adding a separately scored rimfire category for whomever would want to shoot it.

 

A pair of Ruger Wranglers, Henry lever rifle and cheap Chinese SxS - add some eBay leather and startup and shooting (for non reloaders) costs are easily halved.

 

Folks will upgrade when desire, competitiveness and finances allow.

Most all of us have done the same.

 

I'm not advocating for one gun matches, eliminating dress or allowing Remington 870's - but I'm not adverse to abiding by the "10 foot rule" - if it looks cowboy from 10 foot away - let it be.

 

And any cowboy (regardless of age) with two SA revolvers, lever rifle and SxS will look perfectly ok from 10 ft. away.

 

To survive; 

We must be flexible enough to adjust and draw in new shooters without losing the core of what makes our game cowboy.

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

 

If cost is a factor - Stop telling people they "have" to reload.

Equipment and reloading obstacles could be addressed by simply adding a separately scored rimfire category for whomever would want to shoot it.

 

Now you went and done it. Those "buy the biggest and bestest" Dillon people are going to, well, let's just say it ain't gonna be pretty.:D

Edited by Marshal Chance Morgun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Just like I can see some of the concern with showing videos showcasing only the fastest shooters as a possible obstacle.

 

I also can see the dress issue being over emphasized to new shooters - everyone goes to the gunshow to man the table in their fanciest duds; wooly chaps, $500 hats and fancy stitched boots.

 

I've been saying that about the dress issue for quite a while. Not just the cost because that can play a roll in it, but also the fact that some folks just don't like it. They think they have to dress up like the people in the Chronicle. Some of the folks have to wear a suit all week and just don't want that on the weekend. I'm not saying do away with the dress, but maybe showcase a shooter or two not decked out. I had been looking at SASS for a couple of years and didn't join because I didn't want to reenact. I seen Randy St Eagle at a gun store and the proprietor told me to talk to him if I was interested still. I did, and he set me straight (still does on a lot of stuff) about the minimum requirements of it. I was more like a working cowboy instead of a dude from town. That was fine but I didn't know until he told me. Lots of others out there like that too Id say. I enjoyed westerns and still do. A lot of people dont, but like the guns and shooting. I don't care what makes them come out and try it. I don't care what makes them like it. But, I'm confident if they do come out and try it, they'll come back. I never heard anyone say, I had fun and won't be back. As far as cost of clothes and guns etc...I'll let them borrow my guns all day long, but they're gonna have to get their own drawers...

Edited by Tennessee williams
otto got me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Just like I can see some of the concern with showing videos showcasing only the fastest shooters as a possible obstacle.

That has not stopped people flocking to Steel Challenge and IDPA.

 

But more quality marketing about getting started in the sport would help. Look at Jerry Miculek, for example. Very approachable, down to earth, helpful, encouraging. His wife and daughter too. Lena rocks as a shooter and brings lots of new blood into her sport.

 

Marketing materials like this (for 3Gun featuring Lena) might help:

 

 

This video is polished and professional, Lena is friendly and presents the skill in a way that anyone could aspire to be "pretty good," if not eventually perfect and fastest. And that developing the skill would be fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

... reedon't ...

I think I might get what you are saying but I'm not sure...

 

But I did find out I don't need as much garb as I have since I am not shooting in one of the costume categories. But I am having fun with the garb. I might wear my rings next time, authentic Native American art I found over the last couple years.

 

And my lady digs how I walk in my cowboy boots :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/2/2020 at 7:37 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

A venue that can handle the size of a pre-2005 EOT is obviously important. But in the $$$ side, demographics are equally important.

 

I think the numbers for the 2004 EOT had roughly 25,000 paid non-shooting attendees... Which equals a lot of vendors... Which equals a lot of $$$ you the organization.

 

Phantom

And where was that 2005 EOT located?  Not in Nowhere, NM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Banjo Bob said:

And where was that 2005 EOT located?  Not in Nowhere, NM.

Yes it was held at FR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I've been saying that about the dress issue for quite a while. Not just the cost because that can play a roll in it, but also the fact that some folks just don't like it. They think they have to dress up like the people in the Chronicle. Some of the folks have to wear a suit all week and just don't want that on the weekend. I'm not saying do away with the dress, but maybe showcase a shooter or two not decked out. I had been looking at SASS for a couple of years and didn't join because I didn't want to reedon't. I seen Randy St Eagle at a gun store and the proprietor told me to talk to him if I was interested still. I did, and he set me straight (still does on a lot of stuff) about the minimum requirements of it. I was more like a working cowboy instead of a dude from town. That was fine but I didn't know until he told me. Lots of others out there like that too Id say. I enjoyed westerns and still do. A lot of people dont, but like the guns and shooting. I don't care what makes them come out and try it. I don't care what makes them like it. But, I'm confident if they do come out and try it, they'll come back. I never heard anyone say, I had fun and won't be back. As far as cost of clothes and guns etc...I'll let them borrow my guns all day long, but they're gonna have to get their own drawers...

So I'm looking a the October 2018 chronicle and that years eot winner's Matt black and holy terror are on the cover both wearing jeans and button up shirts, I looked inside and counted 19 pictures of shooters wearing jeans. Last weekend we had at least 10 shooters wearing jeans. I enjoy dressing like a working cowboy or 19th century soldier but I have shot in jeans lots of times. 

Rafe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I understand that some folks take issue with dressing up in western gear, but in my opinion, if someone is unwilling to meet the dress requirements, minimal as they are, they are unlikely to be happy in SASS.  SASS was started in response to more serious shooting sports.  In many ways, dressing western is the key to our sport.  It requires you to join in and not take yourself too seriously.  Abandoning that would make SASS a very different sport.  

Edited by Doc Coles SASS 1188
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a change in verbiage might help too.

The phrase costuming is (to borrow a term from Phantom) stoopid.

 

Costuming brings to mind fat guys with thick black frame glasses with tape on the bridge carrying their inhaler escaping their parents basement while dressed like Captain America - hoping there will be girls at the comic con.

 

The modern flat black and tactical groups are playing dress up just as hard as we are - but no one calls their attire "costuming".

 

I don't know the proper term...

Competition geared 1800's reminiscent western apparel? 

But doing away with the term costuming would go a long ways toward erasing some stigma and hesitation about what we wear.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.