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Opal669

New SASS Dad and Son, Question Round 2

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Good Morning All, hopeful everyone had a safe weekend.

 

So after my first thread (had mentioned my son was gifted a Stoeger Coach Supreme in 20ga.) I received some PMs questioning using that gauge.  Naively I figured the 20 was easier to shoot for my son and I and was looking at grabbing another with double triggers.  It was mentioned the larger receiver on the 12 improved recoil for many.

 

So before I make a purchase or need to trade away the existing coach, am asking for all of you with the wealth of experience to chime in.  My experience in other shooting disciplines always has given me the thought recoil is simply perceived differently by the individual...my son loves it, I don't.  Yet imagine there is other factors in play as well at a match.  Not particularly knowledgable on shotguns, shot a 12 coach yesterday for maybe 40 shells and didn't notice it that different than our existing 20.

 

Thank you for your input as we start this new activity together and with you all.

 

Shawn

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Posted (edited)

Will depend on what shells you're using.

 

Factory low noise, low recoil Winchester (or equivalent) in a 12-gauge will typically be noticeably different than the lightest 20-gauge factory loads.

 

If you re-load shotshells it's easier to make your own low noise low recoil 20-gauge shotshells, but components will still be more expensive and more difficult to find than those for 12-gauge.

Edited by Chief Rick
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Posted (edited)

It's fairly easy to buy light loads (and even easier to load light rounds) for a 12 gauge, much more so than it is for a 20 gauge!  20 gauge guns are usually lighter, too.   With the heavy loads and a light gun, the 20 is a real kicker. 

 

Ask around at Rio Salado.  There's a ton of cowboys there who will give you great advice.    DO NOT buy more hardware until you have good reasons for what you are buying, unless you just love trading guns until you get to "right"

 

A gun that was gifted?   Unless that giver was a thoughtful cowboy shooter, there's little chance it is a great gun for the sport.

 

If you want to get going quickly and with minimal re-buys, then CLOSELY COPY the hardware that a fellow Cowboy shooter is using that FEELS GOOD when YOU first shoot it.   At least then you will have something that works well for a good shooter.

 

DO NOT listen to most gun store/big box store clerks about Cowboy guns.  They are making it all up because they have never been to a match and shot the good guns.!

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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8 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

It's fairly easy to buy light loads (and even easier to load light rounds) for a 12 gauge, much more so than it is for a 20 gauge!  20 gauge guns are usually lighter, too.   With the heavy loads and a light gun, the 20 is a real kicker. 

 

Ask around at Rio Salado.  There's a ton of cowboys there who will give you great advice.    DO NOT buy more hardware until you have good reasons for what you are buying, unless you just love trading guns until you get to "right"

 

A gun that was gifted?   Unless that giver was a thoughtful cowboy shooter, there's little chance it is a great gun for the sport.

 

If you want to get going quickly and with minimal re-buys, then CLOSELY COPY the hardware that a fellow Cowboy shooter is using that FEELS GOOD when YOU first shoot it.   At least then you will have something that works well for a good shooter.

 

DO NOT listen to most gun store/big box store clerks about Cowboy guns.  They are making it all up because they have never been to a match and shot the good guns.!

 

Good luck, GJ

Cabelas still advertises 30-30 lever action rifles for CAS even though they are not legal in a main match.  I've also heard gun store clerks spout nonsense about SASS costuming requirements.  (These are the same yokels who believe they are ready for the Top Shot television series.)

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Shoot what you have until it fails or is preventing you from attaining a performance goal.  I have seen shooters chase for a “perfect” gun before they have enough experience to figure out what is perfect for them.  You can waste a lot of money doing that. 

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11 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Shoot what you have until it fails or is preventing you from attaining a performance goal.  I have seen shooters chase for a “perfect” gun before they have enough experience to figure out what is perfect for them.  You can waste a lot of money doing that. 

 

X2!

Shoot it for a year, then decide. 

OLG 

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Another observation from shooting my 20 gauge and my 12 gauge - both were Stoegers.  Plus watching many other shooters.

 

A significant delay in shooting the shotgun is getting the empty shells to clear the gun rather than having to pluck them out. 

For what ever reason (weight vs surface are?) I see people have a lot more trouble with the 20 gauge. 

I had polished the chambers of both and tried several tricks, but the 20 gauge was never as reliable as my 12's (well tuned Stoeger, Baikel and SKB) for easily shucking shells. 

 

Of course your mileage may vary, but something to watch out for.

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Check your p ms.

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Posted (edited)

I shoot a 20ga Stoger. In 2002 I started CAS with a 20ga Rossi hammer gun, I already had the Rossi. The Hammer Less Double trigger Stoger was major improvement. From experience with outfitting my wife I gained a very poor opinion of single trigger Stogers. I load light 20ga loads. 

 

Now what would I recommend for a new shooter, a 12ga or a 20ga. Hands down it would be a 12ga. I have 3 reasons for the 12 over a 20. First is low recoil 12ga rounds are easier to find in stores. Second I think that between the bigger chamber holes and the larger diameter shells loading a 12ga is slightly easier. Third and my favorite reason. Most other cowboys shoot 12 gages so bumming shells at a shoot is less of a problem. 

Edited by Buffalo Bill Mathewson, 37826

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I see plenty of 20ga stoeger when we were shooting.  Run it untill it breaks then decide.

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you  can always keep the 20 as a backup - most of us have needed one on an occasion or two , it means having a little spare ammo along you probably wont use but a couple boxes would do any major match ive been at and all monthlies  , the 12 is the correct answer - everything else is personal preference that i would always agree with , if he is a bigger kid he would perhaps be comfortable with it - or load your own light loads , 

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Buy a 12 and keep your 20 until you've made your decision based on experience.  Cannot go wrong with keeping a shotgun your kid loves shooting.  At this stage he is going to shoot well with what he likes.  Plenty of shooters shot 20, yet I agree with many of the comments on why many go to a 12.  Have fun and enjoy your time with your son.  

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Let him keep the 20 ga.  He already has it, already likes it, and that's what's important.  Get yourself a 12 ga and you can both switch back and forth to see which you each like better. 

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Posted (edited)

If you scrounge the buckets at the unloading tables, you'll find 12 ga. is the most popular. Remingtons are preferred by many and the Win AA's a controversial second choice. 12 ga. is the way to go for most........ I reloaded for years with a Hornady 366 and have recently gone to a MEC Sizemaster. My current recipe is a AA hull, Win 209 primer,  Claybuster grey wad, Clays powder with a number 25 bushing (13.4 gr.) and 7/8 oz. shot.

Edited by Go West
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Thanks you everyone for all the replies, wealth of info here since starting out can be a bit daunting.

 

Will take the suggestions above and shoot our 20 as much as possible these first times out with the local club...did some shopping yesterday and you are not kidding the difference in trying to find specific loadings between the 20 and 12.  Understand now why so many are loading shells as well in the sporting fun.

 

Then keeping an eye out for a used 12 so we can switch them around per Tequila.  Trying to explain to my wife that buying is fun too!

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Go West said:

a number 25 bushing

 

A bushing number is not a load recipe, especially for folks who do not use Mec loaders.   If you look at ALL the powder manufacture's sites, and the loading manuals, the loads are ALWAYS given in weight, not volume (bushing number).  Not all Mecs will throw the same weight with the same bushing, either.  Progressives throw lighter than 600 Jr non-progressives!

 

Be safe,  be considerate to all loaders - give recipes in weight, please!   GJ

 

 

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First off I have both a SxS Stoeger 12 ga. & 20 ga. that I shoot equally over the course of the year. We have many shooters at our club shooting 20 ga. Each of my 12 & 20 shells contain a 7/8 oz. shot charge. Personally I don't see an advantage of either gauge over the other in our sport. I should add that I reload for each. Now the wife on the other hand is a different story. A 12 ga. is a little too heavy for her, and she is a lot more comfortable with the 20 ga. weight and length on the Stoeger 20 ga. Youth model she shoots. Since I reload I put together a nice light 3/4 oz load for her with Unique powder. So I would recommend keeping and shooting the 20 ga. that you have, and maybe later on you can add a 12 ga. if you'd like. I see no reason to have to change shotgun gauges. 

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5 minutes ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

First off I have both a SxS Stoeger 12 ga. & 20 ga. that I shoot equally over the course of the year. We have many shooters at our club shooting 20 ga. Each of my 12 & 20 shells contain a 7/8 oz. shot charge. Personally I don't see an advantage of either gauge over the other in our sport. I should add that I reload for each. Now the wife on the other hand is a different story. A 12 ga. is a little too heavy for her, and she is a lot more comfortable with the 20 ga. weight and length on the Stoeger 20 ga. Youth model she shoots. Since I reload I put together a nice light 3/4 oz load for her with Unique powder. So I would recommend keeping and shooting the 20 ga. that you have, and maybe later on you can add a 12 ga. if you'd like. I see no reason to have to change shotgun gauges. 

If he doesn't reload shotgun he'll never experience what you do with a 20-gauge.

 

He could experience that with a 12-gauge and factory low noise, low recoil shells.

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I have, and shoot, both Stoegers. My 12 is a coach gun and my 20 is the Uplander. I shoot the 20 most because the 20ga frame fits me better. The longer barrels soak up any extra recoil. One other advantage of the longer barrels is that the bead is in about the same place as my rifle, so my eye finds it more naturally. I just stand one step farther back if I have to move positions with it.

 

I agree with the masses, keep the 20ga, buy the 12ga, each of you shoot what feels the best to you, and go from there.

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I bought my son a Stoeger 20 ga when he was an average sized 12-year old.  He loved it.  He's now a 6' 2"  28-year old, and still loves it... and he has a bunch more guns in his safe to choose from.  

 

This is from a few years ago ~ last gun is his Stoeger.  He's not fast, but he does have fun:  ^_^

 

 

 

 

 

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I reload .410, 28,  20, & 16 doubles, a 12 gauge '97 and my own SASS  gun, an AyA Matador 10 gauge 3-1/2" double Once in a blue moon, I bring my Idaho, maternal great grandpa's 8 gauge 4-/4"  double along with my  pair of .41 Long Colt Thunderers as a laugh.  :rolleyes:

 

I use brass shells for all of my CAS guns. They look cool and impress the newbies, especially the kids.  ;)

 

Since I don't use factory loadings, I have total control over everything including recoil. Newbies appear to be happiest with the 28, the 16 and the 12.  I am still trying to modify the recoil of the .410 and the 20.   :wacko:

 

By the way, I leave our 2 gauge punt gun in the safe at home!!   :D

 

IMHO, a good part of the fun is loading your own. I got into it from shooting tons of ammo in PPC and BPCR  matches. Shotgun reloading is easy while trying to produce super accurate extra long range Sharps .50-3/4: cartridges is almost a scientific laboratory endeavour.  :P

 

Whatever floats YOUR boat. Everybody to your own taste said the old lady as she kissed the cow.  :wub:

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On 6/1/2020 at 10:14 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

..........................Ask around at Rio Salado.  There's a ton of cowboys there who will give you great advice.    DO NOT buy more hardware until you have good reasons for what you are buying.........................................

 

+1

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Funny story.

 

Early in SASS I was shooting a 20 gauge (Stoeger, I think)  Back then we didn't have as good of facilities at a lot of ranges, so we had a rifle rack and shotgun rack (essentially vertical staging.)

 

Of course the Stoegers are pretty common.  I got my shotgun and was shooting the stage, loaded the SXS and when I pulled the trigger, nothing happened!  I couldn't figure it out  (and since it was after the beep, we all know we are partially brain dead.)

 

So I quickly pulled more shells and started to load them when I thought, I probably need to figure this out.  The timer operator was also looking around the ground trying to see where in the world my shells went.

 

Well those 20 gauge shells slipped right down that chamber - of the 12 gauge gun I had mistakenly picked up - and they looked identical.

 

We got a kick out of it since nothing went wrong, but realized it could have been dangerous.

 

So if you use the 2 different gauge guns, make certain to mark them in some manner to know which is which - a nice medallion, different buttstock, etc.

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Could easier see myself doing that with the two on a cart, grabbing the one I thought I wanted hustling up to the stage, etc.

 

Great story.

 

 

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"....Cabelas still advertises 30-30 lever action rifles for CAS even though they are not legal in a main match.  I've also heard gun store clerks spout nonsense about SASS costuming requirements.  (These are the same yokels who believe they are ready for the Top Shot television series.)......"

 

this is an important point ask about before you buy , a lot  like the tinfoil hat folks that live in their mothers basement who post chit on the net that just aint true - ask a cowboy or three before you buy , or you will spend a lot  of money on things you will regret , you will get good advise here even  if some differ slightly they all will lead you the right way at substantial savings , 

 

nothing wrong with that 20ga if he likes it , just a lot more kick than he needs , but let him decide , buy that 12 for you and see if he doesnt come to like it - the 20 can always become the backup you WILL NEED one day at a match when everything else seems to be going wrong in one weekend ....ive had them , we all have at one time or another , 

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Okay then, off to find/order a 12 coach so for our variety after chatting with some cowboys at Rio's match yesterday.  A lot of nice folks with great names, Audacious Anne, awesome stuff.

 

Tonight we have to decide on some creative alias and get properly signed up.

 

Wish Top Shot would return Watab Kid, years back visited with Colby and Ian for awhile at Scottsdale Gun Club here, great fellows.

 

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