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Rye Miles #13621

Time for 1911's ???

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Hi Hendo,

 

You didn't change my opinion of you.  I'm a push over for literate, well-thought-out replies. ;)

 

BTW, where in CA do you live?

 

Take care,

 

Allie

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2 hours ago, Assassin said:

Single Action Semi Auto Shooting Society, SASASS. Coming to a range near you.

 

Rye, are you looking for an excuse to shoot your 1911? Old arthritic hands still have to load mags, place mags in gun, and pull back slide. And, clear an occasional jam. Plus, pick up additional brass. Really don't see the pain savings over cocking a single action revolver.

I am NOT looking for an excuse to shoot my 1911, I shoot duelist and if Arthur gets bad in my strong hand I will go double gripper before I go 1911. I merely am thinking aout those shooters who have a hard time cocking a revolver because of arthritis. If I don't take an Aleve or Motrin before the shoot, by the end my right thumb is really hurting. There are many others that have it MUCH worse than me. I'd hate to see good folks quit CAS because of that hence the idea of 1911's. 

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

You must not be reading what I’m saying. The local  club where we allow WB ,we DO NOT list them in the overall standings.

I am not suggesting they be included in the overall scores they would be separate!

Thanks for clarifying.  That's a very different situation to mixing the two.  Probably workable.  

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Awe shucks, now I'm gonna start blushing. :D

 

I'm down here in Costa Mesa. On a clear night you can hear the fireworks at Disneyland.

(On a cloudy night, they're louder.)

 

With respect,

Hendo

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no.

 

as one who had thumb surgery Monday due to arthritis I found that the recoil of a 1911 hurt worse than using the thumb to cock a single action revolver.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Fast Enuff said:

No.  We went through those years where everyone was trying to integrate WB into SASS matches.  We did it at our range for quite a while.  It caused issues with scoring, it caused issues with shooters, it caused issues with time picking brass, it caused issues with TO training and rules.

 

And don't forget this as well:  Those of us who shoot on major shooting ranges... we have permission to shoot our sport per the rules in the SASS book which are all based on single action firearms.  The moment we add semi-automatic pistols we will suddenly have our range's board and safety officers looking at all the pistol reload muzzle directions and will likely force changes to our loading and unloading table policies because of the way they want ammo and loading handled by semi auto firearms with magazines.  It opens an epic can of worms and will get SASS looked at just as hard as USPSA and modern 3 gun matches at host ranges.

 

Some ranges can integrate it at will with no issue, but some can not.  It's far from an easy universal change.

When wild bunch first came out it was designed to be another category of CAS.   There was such an uproar over the new category the SASS decided to make it a stand alone event.   That's the reason we used 5 rounds in the magazine of the 1911.  The reasons mentioned above made this combination difficult.   Bullett 19707

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Hi y'all,

Just a differing opinion, doesn't mean I value your viewpoints any less.

I see a "slippery slope" ahead... Some want to see a Pike category in the main match.  Okay... then some others said they would like 9mm... others want double-actions. 

How much longer after that will we have people who say, "You allow 1911s, why can't I use my Beretta M9?"  I see that road leading to the whole idea of Cowboy Action Shooting devolving into IDPA with funny hats.

 

Well, that's my view... but I'm often wrong. 

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56 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

no.

 

as one who had thumb surgery Monday due to arthritis I found that the recoil of a 1911 hurt worse than using the thumb to cock a single action revolver.

 

 

You've shot already? It was months before I could use my thumb.

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1 minute ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

You've shot already? It was months before I could use my thumb.

 no no no lol.

 

Before surgery.

 

I will be in a cast for 6 weeks.

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For the record, racking the slide on a 1911 with the heel of your boot is pretty easy. It looks cool if you can stay standing while doing it, too. Although I found it easier after you've fallen over.

Your mileage with spurs on may vary. :o

Edited by Hendo
Auto correct done me wrong.
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This topic predates any responders on this topic yet.  The answer in 1985 when I first heard it posited was no...   Frankly, haven't any of you read the "Introduction to SASS"?  Isn't there a line in there about using guns of the "old west"?  Something to the effect of Civil War to 1899?  I know for a fact that it didn't take me 8 years of college to get that BA in History to learn that 1911 doesn't fall between "Civil War & 1899".

 

Label me insensitive, but frankly, cowboy action has a set of rules... and I'd venture to say that nearly every rule change has relaxed the criteria to play this game.  As others have noted... If you want to shoot your 1911 in competition, badger the WB fellers.    Tell 'em that they shoot too much, you need some relief.  IME, it takes more manual manipulation to operate a 1911 than it does a SAA... and again, in case y'all ain't ever noticed, the cyclic speed of the 1911 is pretty well fixed... as slow as I am, I can fire 5 shots much much faster with my SAA than my 1911.  And, my changing of magazines might be tad slower than some can transition between revolvers.

 

I don't know this "Arthur" feller y'all talk about, but if he made me hurt as much as my arthritis does, I'd kick his s(ass)...   

 

Leave SASS alone.  Now... the above is the sugar coated version of what I think.  Don't ask me to give you the grown-up adult version.  Y'all clearly ain't ready for that.

Edited by Griff
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6 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

This topic predates any responders on this topic yet.  The answer in 1985 when I first heard it posited was no...   Frankly, haven't any of you read the "Introduction to SASS"?  Isn't there a line in there about using guns of the "old west"?  Something to the effect of Civil War to 1899?  I know for a fact that it didn't take me 8 years of college to get that BA in History to learn that 1911 doesn't fall between "Civil War & 1899".

 

Label me insensitive, but frankly, cowboy action has a set of rules... and I'd venture to say that nearly every rule change has relaxed the criteria to play this game.  As others have noted... If you want to shoot your 1911 in competition, badger the WB fellers.    Tell 'em that they shoot too much, you need some relief.  IME, it takes for manual manipulation to operate a 1911 than it does a SAA... and again, in case y'all ain't ever noticed, the cyclic speed of the 1911 is pretty well fixed... as slow as I am, I can fire 5 shots much much faster with my SAA than my 1911.  And, my changing of magazines might be tad slower than some can transition between revolvers.

 

I don't know this "Arthur" feller y'all talk about, but if he made me hurt as much as my arthritis does, I'd kick his s(ass)...   

 

Leave SASS alone.  Now... the above is the sugar coated version of what I think.  Don't ask me to give you grown-up adult version.  Y'all clearly ain't ready for that.

 

I am in full agreement with you (imagine that?). 

 

There are a lot of shooting games for slide action guns.  Some of them can very easily be shot with a single stack 1911 (Steel Challenge for example).  Allowing 1911's into the mix is opening a can of worms that ought to stay sealed.

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4 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

I am in full agreement with you (imagine that?). 

 

There are a lot of shooting games for slide action guns.  Some of them can very easily be shot with a single stack 1911 (Steel Challenge for example).  Allowing 1911's into the mix is opening a can of worms that ought to stay sealed.

For many of us the attraction to CAS is the mechanical aspect of old guns. Actually, making them function and competing with those guns. Once auto loaders are thrown into the mix that attraction is diminished for me. We used to have a few guys that shot WB guns at CAS matches, it didn't last long until the 1911's went back into the safe. There is little interest in WB in this area. 

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8 hours ago, Griff said:

 

This topic predates any responders on this topic yet.  The answer in 1985 when I first heard it posited was no...   Frankly, haven't any of you read the "Introduction to SASS"?  Isn't there a line in there about using guns of the "old west"?  Something to the effect of Civil War to 1899?  I know for a fact that it didn't take me 8 years of college to get that BA in History to learn that 1911 doesn't fall between "Civil War & 1899".

.

I get what you're saying but it was SASS that introduced Wild Bunch and the 1911's. 

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Let me open by saying that at one club that I shoot with we mix CAS and Wild Bunch shooting at one of our monthly matches.  The Wild Bunch and Cowboys shoot on the same posse, using the same target set but DIFFERENT  stage instructions.  It works well for us and we have lots of fun.

Now,  if a shooter is unable to operate a SSA revolver because of arthritis I seriously doubt that they would be successful at shooting  a 1911.  Not saying that it couldn't be done, just have my doubts. 

 

Blackfoot

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5 minutes ago, BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 said:

Now,  if a shooter is unable to operate a SSA revolver because of arthritis I seriously doubt that they would be successful at shooting  a 1911.  Not saying that it couldn't be done, just have my doubts. 

Wasn't the original idea behind age-based categories to address and accommodate the differences in capability for different ages, (presumably, that included arthritis or any other disabling malady in us older folks)?  Wasn't that supposed to allow everyone to compete only against those with similar physical capability to themselves?

So why should we need to modify the main match rules further to accommodate the same kinds of things at a second level? 

It begs clarification if this discussion is about:

1) reducing pain for affected shooters, or about 

2) ability to compete.  

 

As for me, when my RA gets too painful to be able to operate my old west guns at competitive speed in any of the existing categories, I'll probably just stop competing and shoot for the fun of shooting, as many do now, and do whatever I can do to help in our matches--run the LT, ULT, scoresheet, BBQ, etc. 

 

But if CAS begins to integrate more modern firearm designs into main matches, and slides away from being an "old west" sport, I likely would quit, and go shoot my old guns with a few friends - - maybe even form a new "Cowboy Action" kind of club.   

Appreciate what we already have folks!  The grass "over there" isn't always greener when you get up close to it.  

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12 hours ago, Hendo said:

For the record, racking the slide on a 1911 with the heel of your boot is pretty easy. It looks cool if you can stay standing while doing it, too. Although I found it easier after you've fallen over.

Your mileage with spurs on may vary. :o

Maybe also a 170 problem or two. 

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17 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Using a 1911 is the only way I will ever see the top shooter's dust. :lol:

But I thought the discussion was about arthritis? 

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16 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Wasn't the original idea behind age-based categories to address and accommodate the differences in capability for different ages, (presumably, that included arthritis or any other disabling malady in us older folks)?  Wasn't that supposed to allow everyone to compete only against those with similar physical capability to themselves?

So why should we need to modify the main match rules further to accommodate the same kinds of things at a second level? 

It begs clarification if this discussion is about:

1) reducing pain for affected shooters, or about 

2) ability to compete.  

 

As for me, when my RA gets too painful to be able to operate my old west guns at competitive speed in any of the existing categories, I'll probably just stop competing and shoot for the fun of shooting, as many do now, and do whatever I can do to help in our matches--run the LT, ULT, scoresheet, BBQ, etc. 

 

But if CAS begins to integrate more modern firearm designs into main matches, and slides away from being an "old west" sport, I likely would quit, and go shoot my old guns with a few friends - - maybe even form a new "Cowboy Action" kind of club.   

Appreciate what we already have folks!  The grass "over there" isn't always greener when you get up close to it.  

Well, I'm hoping you hang around long enough so we can compete against each other in the Horse Drawn Wicker Wheel Chair division.  :P

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2 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Well, I'm hoping you hang around long enough so we can compete against each other in the Horse Drawn Wicker Wheel Chair division.  :P

Count on it! 

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17 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Wasn't the original idea behind age-based categories to address and accommodate the differences in capability for different ages, (presumably, that included arthritis or any other disabling malady in us older folks)?  Wasn't that supposed to allow everyone to compete only against those with similar physical capability to themselves?

So why should we need to modify the main match rules further to accommodate the same kinds of things at a second level? 

It begs clarification if this discussion is about:

1) reducing pain for affected shooters, or about 

2) ability to compete.  

 

As for me, when my RA gets too painful to be able to operate my old west guns at competitive speed in any of the existing categories, I'll probably just stop competing and shoot for the fun of shooting, as many do now, and do whatever I can do to help in our matches--run the LT, ULT, scoresheet, BBQ, etc. 

 

But if CAS begins to integrate more modern firearm designs into main matches, and slides away from being an "old west" sport, I likely would quit, and go shoot my old guns with a few friends - - maybe even form a new "Cowboy Action" kind of club.   

Appreciate what we already have folks!  The grass "over there" isn't always greener when you get up close to it.  

Dusty my friend, I’m not advocating modern firearms in our sport except for the 1911. Like I’ve said already, it would not be part of the overall scores. We already have WB thanks to SASS so why not incorporate it in the regular matches instead of side matches or special WB matches? I still think it’s easier to operate a 1911 with arthritis than cocking a SA.

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1 hour ago, BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 said:

Let me open by saying that at one club that I shoot with we mix CAS and Wild Bunch shooting at one of our monthly matches.  The Wild Bunch and Cowboys shoot on the same posse, using the same target set but DIFFERENT  stage instructions.  It works well for us and we have lots of fun.

Now,  if a shooter is unable to operate a SSA revolver because of arthritis I seriously doubt that they would be successful at shooting  a 1911.  Not saying that it couldn't be done, just have my doubts. 

 

Blackfoot

 

I guess that I need to add that the Wild Bunch shooters DO NOT compete against Cowboy Shooters, it is NOT another category in cowboy shooting.  It is a separate match, separate scores, separage stage instructions, just shot  in a group with Cowboy shooters.  It is just like we were on the other end of the range shooting Wild Bunch.  We do it this way because we usually only have eough shooters for one posse.

 

Blackfoot

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2 minutes ago, BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 said:

 

I guess that I need to add that the Wild Bunch shooters DO NOT compete against Cowboy Shooters, it is NOT another category in cowboy shooting.  It is a separate match, separate scores, separage stage instructions, just shot  in a group with Cowboy shooters.  It is just like we were on the other end of the range shooting Wild Bunch.  We do it this way because we usually only have eough shooters for one posse.

 

Blackfoot

We do the same thing at Firelands Peacemakers monthly, we generally only get a few WB shooters. 

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You can already do it on the local level.  Whatever your club sees fit.  I don't see this going anywhere on a larger level as this would have to be passed by a vote of the TG's and approved by the Board of Directors, the SHB would have to be totally rewritten for category requirements, handling of guns and ammo, and the RO courses revamped as not all ROs are conversant with the handling of 1911s.  

For a Pike category, do you reinstate the 5-round limit in the magazines?

Is it ok to have magazines loaded with 1 round, (the Barney magazine)?

Are Winchester Model 12s allowed?

Are you going to allow double-action revolvers as some have recommended?

Are you going to allow 9mm as some have recommended?

 

So, if this is what you want, start lobbying your TGs...

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I don’t think this will ever make it beyond monthly shoots either, but that’s okay. I started this as a suggestion and I didn’t mean to make it a SASS approved category, if it does go that far fine but for now I think local clubs could have some fun with this. 

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When I was younger basketball was my passion, and for a guy of medium height and very little jumping ability I was pretty good. There was a period in my 30s and early 40s where I played a couple of hours a day three or four days a week. 
 

Alas I can no longer do that, too painful the next day and I don’t have the wind to go more than 10 minutes or so now. I miss it and still occasionally play a little with my children and nephew, but not for too long. My style of play has changed to account for my heavier, slower body. Now I back people down in the low post rather than playing ftf crossing them up and driving. Back then I could touch the rim, now I struggle to touch the net.

 

If they lowered the goal, made the court shorter, moved the 3 point line in, and shortened the quarters substantially I might be able to play better and stay in the game longer, but it wouldn’t be the same game now would it?

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41 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When I was younger basketball was my passion, and for a guy of medium height and very little jumping ability I was pretty good. There was a period in my 30s and early 40s where I played a couple of hours a day three or four days a week. 
 

Alas I can no longer do that, too painful the next day and I don’t have the wind to go more than 10 minutes or so now. I miss it and still occasionally play a little with my children and nephew, but not for too long. My style of play has changed to account for my heavier, slower body. Now I back people down in the low post rather than playing ftf crossing them up and driving. Back then I could touch the rim, now I struggle to touch the net.

 

If they lowered the goal, made the court shorter, moved the 3 point line in, and shortened the quarters substantially I might be able to play better and stay in the game longer, but it wouldn’t be the same game now would it?

 

Nope, but you'd look like you lost weight, got taller and could run faster.:huh:

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4 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Nope, but you'd look like you lost weight, got taller and could run faster.:huh:

Hey! You may be on to something there!

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There’s a match we shoot occasionally a a local club called mix and match. You can basically shoot anything. You get a 10 second bonus for shooting rifle targets with a pistol and a 10 second penalty for stoked shotguns. Kind of evens the playing field. I’ve done it many different ways. 1911 as my rifle, two pistols, and a stoked 87. Once I used a rifle, and my pistols were a colt single action and colt 1911 gunfighter. That was really fun. They won’t let me shoot two 1911’s gunfighter though. Such a pity. Point is that locally you can do so many different things to enhance this entertainment game we play. 

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At our monthly Escondido Bandidos match a few pards use their 1911’s because of shoulder injuries they can’t shoot much else and we are glad to have them there. We have another pard who comes down every month and it takes him about 3 minutes to get through a stage and we’re extra glad to have him. You all have probably heard of Chesty Pullers exploits in the Korean conflict and if it weren’t for the Cowboy on our posse all stove up, using a mobility scooter to get around and being supported by two or three Cowboys while he shoots  the stage in three minutes Ol Chesty wouldn’t have made it out of Korea. If someday Cherokee Ken decides he wants to use 1911’s for match guns at a Bandidos match I’m pretty confident there will be no shortage of offers of 1911’s for him to use. So if all you folks moaning about 1911’s being allowed at local matches to accommodate those pards that would otherwise not be allowed to participate ever find your way down to Escondido on the first Saturday, please find something else to do because I’m pretty sure you’ll lose sleep over the things we do to accommodate elderly and handicapped shooters.

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1911's?   My gut says no.

 

Finding a way to include other pre-1900 designs that are currently not allowed would make much more sense to me.   

And I guess that would include the Broomhandle Mauser.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

But I thought the discussion was about arthritis? 

Just a joke pard.  Didn't you pick up on the emoji?

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Our club has offered a Pike category for years.  Same scenario, same round count, just load a second magazine loaded with five rounds and go.  It gets shot three or four times a year.  I don't see this as the beginning of the end for SASS.  :)

 

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