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LEVER LOCK - Who's Using This ?

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5 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

SHB p.32:

"Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here."

and

"Firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict."

 

To me it looks like it does affect the external operation of the firearm and it's not according the original design (but that's my opinion about short strokes, too :ph34r: )

Obviously short strokes do affect the operation of the gun and aren't according to the original design, BUT they're also included under the "Internal modifications not referenced here" statement. In other words, they are explicitly referenced as being OK.  Your difference of opinion is not about what short strokes do with respect to original design, it's about whether they should have been approved.  That ship has sailed. 

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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3 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

SHB p.32:

"Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here."

and

"Firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict."

 

To me it looks like it does affect the external operation of the firearm and it's not according the original design (but that's my opinion about short strokes, too :ph34r: )

Tn  Williams, This was what I was referring to, w/o trying to discuss the interpenetration of the "law".  I wanted to express my "opinion/perception" not hide behind interpretation of the law. It was just a question/opinion in point.

 

We are basically reenacting. If I have to dress  up 1800's, my guns should be 1800's. Not an AR in a Winchester platform.

 

It is a disadvantage because;  I have only been shooting CAS two years. I have shot with you twice at the TN State. And I have watched you send live rounds into space! :D  It is unlikely that I will ever get close to your abilities in my life time ( I don't have enough time left). But when you and I are shooting under the same 1800's guidelines, every time you send a round into space and have to reload or take a miss (which I have never yet done in a match) my chances  to get closer to your total score improves. Now, because you modify your gun so you can't jack a round and I don't need that modification because I trained not to jack rounds, you mechanically improved your performance. You made your gun better, not your shooting ability. 

 

When you push the speed envelope you eliminate steps. When you eliminate steps, you miss targets and jack rounds. That is part of the game.

 

I shoot for the fun not the belt buckle. I want things to be more difficult for me to shoot rather than an easy walk in the park. My satisfaction comes from knowing I did my best that I could do (or not). The harder stages levels the playing field for everyone vs. a twenty-six round one target dump. That is what the side matches are for. I'm a gunfighter, not because it is faster but because 80% of the shooters at a match can't shoot left handed and that in my past life I was required to shoot with both hands and I want to improve.

 

Now for the big issue; Safety.

When this thing locks the action closed with the hammer back, what is the difference than having a cocked pistol in holster? You can't un-cock a pistol on the firing line (regardless of what is under the firing pin). No one knows what's in the battery. To correct this or find out, you have to pull the trigger. So what makes the rifle any different? If your lever inadvertently closes on the line, corrective action is to grab the lever and open it. With this device, you must pull the rigger to make it safe (which is not safe). You can't lower the hammer, you must let the hammer fall on who know what's in there.

 

It's nice to see where you stand against 200 (+) shooters in a two day match, but when a dozen shooters are not shooting the same gun and are in your class, those standings become skewed. "TW beat me by 15 seconds, but he has a modified gun so ..."

 

You can argue about short stroke kits. Mine came from the factory with one.  We all use short strokes or not. A short stroke provides the same advantage to all shooters, to shoot faster due to shorter lock time. I does not correct one particular shooters flaws over everyone else who can't seem to keep his/her lever closed.

 

CAS is about doing what you can, with what you have.

How do you really feel about yourself, knowing if you took this thing out of your gun that you'd be jacking rounds everywhere to shoot that fast?

Is this game really just about speed at any cost?

 

 

 

 

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I find the whole "need" for this thing amusing.  The ONLY times I've ever jacked out a round is when using a borrowed short-stroked rifle... I suspect that EVERYONE that claims of having jacked out a round or two per match is also using a short-stroked rifle.  

 

I'm really glad now that I haven't short-stroked my rifles... I've saved money by not modifying them, and saved money again by not having to further modify them to prevent an occurrence caused by the first modification.  Silly people.

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2 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

 

We are basically reenacting. If I have to dress  up 1800's, my guns should be 1800's. Not an AR in a Winchester platform.

 

I respectfully disagree.  This point has been covered many times.  We're nowhere close to being re-enactors.  Our guns aren't period correct, much of our apparel isn't even close to being period correct (think B-Western).  Somehow I don't think cowboys ever thought, 'I'm going to stand here out in the open and shoot a Nevada sweep on those four bad guys."  We're a fantasy western shooting sport.  

 

2 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

I shoot for the fun not the belt buckle. I want things to be more difficult for me to shoot rather than an easy walk in the park. My satisfaction comes from knowing I did my best that I could do (or not). The harder stages levels the playing field for everyone vs. a twenty-six round one target dump. That is what the side matches are for. I'm a gunfighter, not because it is faster but because 80% of the shooters at a match can't shoot left handed and that in my past life I was required to shoot with both hands and I want to improve.

I always get a kick out of this statement and it keeps popping back up.  We're all shooting for fun, even the fast shooters.  Some of us just define fun differently than you do.

 

2 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

It's nice to see where you stand against 200 (+) shooters in a two day match, but when a dozen shooters are not shooting the same gun and are in your class, those standings become skewed. "TW beat me by 15 seconds, but he has a modified gun so ..."

 

That is a statement I've never heard from anyone at a match in 9 years of CAS.  I've heard it here on the Wire, but never at a match.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

 

 

We are basically reenacting. If I have to dress  up 1800's, my guns should be 1800's. Not an AR in a Winchester platform.

I have to disagree. The wrong thought that I had to reenact is what kept me from joining sass a year or two sooner. I actually dislike anything to do with a factual reenactment. I realize there are people in sass that LOVE it. I support their decision dress the part down to the socks, and applaud them for it. Makes it fun, just not my cup of tea.

Quote

 

It is a disadvantage because;  I have only been shooting CAS two years. I have shot with you twice at the TN State.

Next time we shoot together, introduce yourself. I like meeting new people. I enjoy knowing most of 'em.

Quote

And I have watched you send live rounds into space! :D  It is unlikely that I will ever get close to your abilities in my life time ( I don't have enough time left).

I haven't been shooting much longer than you. There is time for anything, and anyone can get beat on any given dayB)

Quote

But when you and I are shooting under the same 1800's guidelines, every time you send a round into space and have to reload or take a miss (which I have never yet done in a match) my chances  to get closer to your total score improves. Now, because you modify your gun so you can't jack a round and I don't need that modification because I trained not to jack rounds, you mechanically improved your performance. You made your gun better, not your shooting ability. 

A lot can be said about this^. Have you done anything to your guns to make them function better? Do you have a short stroke? There are shooters that have not. Does that mean you will statistically beat them?

You say me getting the lever lock is a disadvantage to you because you trained yourself not to jack rounds out, and don't need it. I made the gun better, not me. Well, have you also spent 2 hours a day working on new transitions? Have you put forth the effort to come up with new transitions to improve your stage time? Do you work on target acquisition? Do you practice, or are the matches your practice? This means a heap more than ANY gun modification.

Quote

 

 

I shoot for the fun not the belt buckle.

Me too. I don't know anybody that spends the money to shoot a big match for just a buckle. Heck, you can buy one for 35 bucks and save the hassle if its not fun.

Quote

 

 The harder stages levels the playing field for everyone vs. a twenty-six round one target dump.

This is absolutely incorrect. 

Quote

Now for the big issue; Safety.

I am glad you brought that up. I get an oob pretty regularly. This should solve my problem and be safer for me. A good side note is this: If I have opening pressure on the lever when the hammer falls, the round may not fire because the lock will absorb hammer force.

Quote

When this thing locks the action closed with the hammer back, what is the difference than having a cocked pistol in holster? 

You do not have the rifle holstered.

Quote

You can't un-cock a pistol on the firing line (regardless of what is under the firing pin). No one knows what's in the battery. To correct this or find out, you have to pull the trigger. So what makes the rifle any different? If your lever inadvertently closes on the line, corrective action is to grab the lever and open it. With this device, you must pull the rigger to make it safe (which is not safe). You can't lower the hammer, you must let the hammer fall on who know what's in there.

No, you do NOT have to open the lever to show clear before the stage is over. After the stage is over point the rifle down range and pull the trigger, the same way you have to do with a pistol. Easy peasy. 

Yes, you can just lower the hammer with this device.

By the way, the only way to stage a rifle for future use on the stage is empty or hammer fully down on a spent round. So in that case it is moot.

Quote

 

It's nice to see where you stand against 200 (+) shooters in a two day match, but when a dozen shooters are not shooting the same gun and are in your class, those standings become skewed. "TW beat me by 15 seconds, but he has a modified gun so ..."

Zero shooters are shooting the same guns anyway. It is only skewed to you.

Quote

 

You can argue about short stroke kits. Mine came from the factory with one.  We all use short strokes or not. A short stroke provides the same advantage to all shooters, to shoot faster due to shorter lock time. I does not correct one particular shooters flaws over everyone else who can't seem to keep his/her lever closed.

The lever lock also provides the same advantage to all that have it.

   Since you have a shortstroke, how would you feel if someone said the only reason you fire your rifle faster was that short stroke? After all, you don't have to fully lever your rifle. You gonna spot the non short stroked rifles a couple seconds? If not, it's kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

Quote

 

CAS is about doing what you can, with what you have.

How do you really feel about yourself, knowing if you took this thing out of your gun that you'd be jacking rounds everywhere to shoot that fast?

I feel great. Don't you feel good after a nice rifle run with that short stroke in it?

Quote

Is this game really just about speed at any cost?

I don't know about the at any cost part, but it is cowboy action shooting. It is about speed, otherwise we wouldn't get penalized for misses by adding 5 seconds. We would be shooting for high score on target hits.

 

I do look forward to meeting you. Coming to state this year?

 

Edited by Tennessee williams
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Dang TN.... you're gonna run out of black ink if you keep having to defend yourself for using a legal

mod in a rifle..... :o

 

WOW... If you're whooping up on the competition by 15 seconds (a stage or match),

you must be one heck of a SG and Pistol shooter cause I don't know but a couple folk that

can gain 15 seconds with just their rifle performances, all other things being equal.

 

How long does it take you to eat a Nanner Split with one of them spoons that has the tip 

shaped like a fork versus a normal, unmodified spoon?

 

..........Widder

 

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15 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Dang TN.... you're gonna run out of black ink if you keep having to defend yourself for using a legal

mod in a rifle..... :o

 

WOW... If you're whooping up on the competition by 15 seconds (a stage or match),

you must be one heck of a SG and Pistol shooter cause I don't know but a couple folk that

can gain 15 seconds with just their rifle performances, all other things being equal.

 

How long does it take you to eat a Nanner Split with one of them spoons that has the tip 

shaped like a fork versus a normal, unmodified spoon?

 

..........Widder

 

I think he goes Gunfighter on those and uses a spork in one hand and a spoon in the other.

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12 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think he goes Gunfighter on those and uses a spork in one hand and a spoon in the other.

 

No gunfighter for TN Wlliams, it's all about transitionins. He has to keep one hand free to grab his drink to wash it on down or napkin to wipe. I believe he does use a competition deep dished spoon though.

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I have NO problem with the idea of it.

 

Don't really see it as a competitive advantage. And if it is. Don't really care.

 

 

I just feel there is a little bit of a  safety issue with it as it is now.

Find a fix for that. And I might even add one. But that is my only issue with it.

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34 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Dang TN.... you're gonna run out of black ink if you keep having to defend yourself for using a legal

mod in a rifle..... :o

 

WOW... If you're whooping up on the competition by 15 seconds (a stage or match),

you must be one heck of a SG and Pistol shooter cause I don't know but a couple folk that

can gain 15 seconds with just their rifle performances, all other things being equal.

 

How long does it take you to eat a Nanner Split with one of them spoons that has the tip 

shaped like a fork versus a normal, unmodified spoon?

 

..........Widder

 

 

19 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think he goes Gunfighter on those and uses a spork in one hand and a spoon in the other.

 

4 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

No gunfighter for TN Wlliams, it's all about transitionins. He has to keep one hand free to grab his drink to wash it on down or napkin to wipe. I believe he does use a competition deep dished spoon though.

We're gonna have to start a comedy tour. I bout fell out of my seat.

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Holy smokes.... I've been off the grid for a few days and I came back to check on this post and its replies -and it looks like I'll Tennessee Williams has been thrown under the stagecoach ! :lol:

 

When you do get your Lever Lock installed and tried it out, be sure to update us on your thoughts and how it works. Or send me a P M about it.

 

Thanks

 

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13 hours ago, Fence Cutter said:

Holy smokes.... I've been off the grid for a few days and I came back to check on this post and its replies -and it looks like I'll Tennessee Williams has been thrown under the stagecoach ! :lol:

 

When you do get your Lever Lock installed and tried it out, be sure to update us on your thoughts and how it works. Or send me a P M about it.

 

Thanks

 

Will do

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No one is throwing TW under a bus. You can't discuss another perspective here? I really don't care what any of you do to your guns. I'm in final stage renal failure and will never come close to shooting like many of you. I do this to get out of the house and have some fun with good friends for a while.

 

Read this again;

 

Quote

OUTLAWED ITEMS SASS wants our participants to be safe, have fun, develop their competitive shooting skills, and enjoy the rich traditions of the Old West.  We ask you join us in the friendly spirit of competition and preservation of our heritage.  The use or presence of any of the listed outlawed items will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty.   - Modern shooting gloves - Short sleeve shirts (male competitors only) - Short sleeve tee shirts, long sleeve tee shirts, and tank tops for all competitors.   (Long sleeve Henley type shirts with buttons are acceptable.) - Modern feathered cowboy hats (Shady Bradys) Straw hats of traditional design are acceptable (e.g., Stetson, Baily, Sombreros, etc.) - Designer jeans are not allowed.  Designer jeans include modern jeans that have slogans or logos embroidered, silk screened, and such, saying things like “PINK” or “BABY.”  Jeans with fancy or flashy adornments are acceptable. - Ball caps. - All types of athletic shoes or combat boots, no matter the material from which they are constructed. - Nylon, plastic, or Velcro accouterments. - The displaying of any manufacturer’s, sponsor’s, or team logos on apparel.  (Manufacturer’s labels on such apparel or equipment are acceptable)

 

You want to control the underwear I may / or may not have on, but it's fine to redesign your rifle because a few of you really fast shooters jack a round or two. The reality of it is that you will soon have to put your stock hammer springs back in because you lever faster than the hammer can fall. I know fun means fast for almost all of us, but are we starting to  step outside of the spirit of the game sometimes? I think a SDQ for any of the above listed items is nonsense. But, it's in the rule book... I question these things more than having a lever lock installed in your rifle. But I am not one to raise hell in a match SDQ to someone for having a Hamilton  Dry Goods patch on their britches either. But I have seen some who will!

 

TN Williams:

Quote

I do look forward to meeting you. Coming to state this year?

Papa Dave helped squeeze me in on your posse last year at the last minute when I had an opening between surgery.  If I skip treatment and get a call for transplant, I may loose my donor. But, don't rule me out though. My pard "Lets Go" is talking about driving down each day for the match. But that makes for a long day. I may be shooting Outlaw with my eyes closed!

 

You did a great job running the posse for us last year. I'll miss a great time if I don't make it. Hope you do well this year, enjoy.

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Blast Masterson I'm sorry that you feel I was seriously thinking TW was being thrown under the bus- figuratively speaking. I know it was all with fun and humor, that is why I used the word "Stagecoach" and included a happy laughing emoji.

 

This is however a problem that can occur communicating with only typed words, but an occasional added Emoji should help to clarify what is really being thought.

 

And yes, when I started this thread I was hoping to get perspectives from each side of the fence. There is no opinion in the world about the Lever Lock that's going to hurt my feelings.

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9 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

 

TN Williams:

Papa Dave helped squeeze me in on your posse last year at the last minute when I had an opening between surgery.  If I skip treatment and get a call for transplant, I may loose my donor. But, don't rule me out though. My pard "Lets Go" is talking about driving down each day for the match. But that makes for a long day. I may be shooting Outlaw with my eyes closed!

 

You did a great job running the posse for us last year. I'll miss a great time if I don't make it. Hope you do well this year, enjoy.

BM, I had a great posse! Everybody worked, got along, and had fun. What more can a PM ask for? Let's go seems like a good pard. He shoot duelist? I think I seen his name somewhere.

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Throw him under the stagecoach. :)

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

BM, I had a great posse! Everybody worked, got along, and had fun. What more can a PM ask for? Let's go seems like a good pard. He shoot duelist? I think I seen his name somewhere.

He was on your posse last year also. He's a gunfighter changed back to duleist. Got hit with a P two years in a row cuz spotters can't keep up.

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

BM, I had a great posse! Everybody worked, got along, and had fun. What more can a PM ask for? Let's go seems like a good pard. He shoot duelist? I think I seen his name somewhere.

I think Let's Go is shooting Gunfighter these days.

 

Randy

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1 hour ago, Purly SASS # 57438 said:

Throw him under the stagecoach. :)

 

That'll generate a lot of 'likes'.   :lol:

 

Actually, just place a Nanner Split under the stagecoach and TN will jump underneath all 

hisowndangself..... :D

 

You could tie TN Williams hands behind his back and place a banana and some Ice Cream

on top of his head.....and he'd slap his brains out with his tongue trying to get it.

 

..........Widder

 

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8 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

That'll generate a lot of 'likes'.   :lol:

 

Actually, just place a Nanner Split under the stagecoach and TN will jump underneath all 

hisowndangself..... :D

 

You could tie TN Williams hands behind his back and place a banana and some Ice Cream

on top of his head.....and he'd slap his brains out with his tongue trying to get it.

 

..........Widder

 

He aint wrong^

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19 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I think Let's Go is shooting Gunfighter these days.

 

Randy

I stand corrected, I just saw on the SE Regional where he is shooting Duelist.

 

Thanks

Randy

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I find this somewhat amusing, but only because I am coming at it from a different perspective.   See, while I do have a Henry and a 66 and a 73, and for that matter a  92, they all have in common the fact that yep, you can lever out a live round without pulling the trigger.    I've never thought that this was problem in need of a solution.   But, apparently some folks don't want this to be possible.  Well, there is a solution that does not require you to perform any modification to the gun; use a Lightning.   Once a round is chambered, you can't work the action again until the trigger has been pulled and the hammer has fallen.  Problem solved.  :)

But then there is the question of how do you unload the gun.   Well, if it was me, I'd just tell the Posse Marshall that I've got a problem and request permission to fire off the rounds in the the rifle safely down range so I can then "reset" and shoot the stage later instead of next.  This to me seems to be safer than having to lower the hammer on live rounds.

 

Of course, in the ten years that a Lightning has been my fave main match gun, I've never had to ask.

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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