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doc roy l. pain

EOT stages

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I would like to thank Lassiter, Deuce, and all those involved with what I feel were the best EOT stages I have seen to date. Challenging but easy enough to shoot clean if you didn’t let your wheels run off the rail( of which I was one of the latter). I felt it was what a world championship match should look like. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm going to preface my comments with the following:

 

1. Everyone involved worked their butts off to bring a quality match to all that came 

 

2. I appreciate all the hard work!!!

 

3. I respect all those folks that worked so hard and volunteered their time, energy and money.

 

That said, I think the direction of the match is going in the wrong direction.

 

EOT, like all other Championship matches has no qualifying requirements. Most that attend do so hoping to have fun while understanding that they're not going to win.

 

EOT is kinda in the middle of nowhere, so there isn't much of a draw outside of the shooting event itself... Makes the shooting experience super critical in determining the level of participation.

 

I'm fearful that this new philosophy will hurt attendance.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

 Is this something new?  :FlagAm:

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 Is this something new?  :FlagAm:

 

Phantom and I discussed the match so I am not saying anything I did not to him.  The match was more challenging than past few years...not hard but not as "up close" and "easy" as past.  Let's say more of "use your front sight" match.  I understand what Phantom is saying and it is good point.  Hopefully it will not discourage attendance.  To me it was a good World championship array of stages and, IMO,  what one would/should expect of  match of this caliber.  

 

I would mention also that Posse Marshall walk thru was probably fastest I have been on at EOT, and I have been thru many in last 20 years.  No defaults and no foot policy was outstanding.  Your hands went where scenario suggested with no body posture request.  Guns were shot from a usually wide "position" without regards to feet, only muzzle.    

 

I will add that 29 Clean matches reveals much of what Phantom is saying....front sight, front sight...   I would be interested in knowing how many folks were in the "one miss" column (I certainly know the feeling).  

Edited by Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator
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Posted (edited)

Clean with a “P” Billy,  

 

I am in the same boat as Doc and Billy,  Granted I may have a little different perspective as a Frontiersman.  I tend to shoot a bit slower then most other categories.  That said the pistol targets may have appeared a titch out there, but none were more than 6.75 yards.  The rifle and shotgun targets I considered normal.  I guess I don’t understand why anyone would not attend a World Championship because they thought it was too hard.  What the should you expect of a World Championship.   It is supposed to be a test of the best of the best.  As stated there were no P traps, great stages and descriptions, good movement and  lots of options on how and where to stage your guns.  I understand that in a sense CAS is in the entertainment business but that doesn’t mean that they should water down the stages so people can say they shot clean.  I don’t understand that mentality at all and honestly if thats how they feel I hope they do stay home.   The World and National Championships should be set up to bring out the best and not just status quo.   

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

Edited by Chili Pepper Pete 11917
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17 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

Clean with a “P” Billy,  

 

I am in the same boat as Doc and Billy,  Granted I may have a little different perspective as a Frontiersman.  I tend to shoot a bit slower then most other categories.  That said the pistol targets may have appeared a titch out there, but none were more than 6.75 yards.  The rifle and shotgun targets I considered normal.  I guess I don’t understand why anyone would not attend a World Championship because they thought it was too hard.  What the should you expect of a World Championship.   It is supposed to be a test of the best of the best.  As stated there were no P traps, great stages and descriptions, good movement and  lots of options on how and where to stage your guns.  I understand that in a sense CAS is in the entertainment business but that doesn’t mean that they should water down the stages so people can say they shot clean.  I don’t understand that mentality at all and honestly if thats how they feel I hope they do stay home.   The World and National Championships should be set up to bring out the best and not just status quo.   

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

So those that don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning a buckle should... Stay home? Do you think EOT could survive with say...400 shooters?

 

So previous years weren't a true challenge?

 

And I don't think anyone is taking about "watering down" anything.

 

Would love to see results of a quality questionnaire.

 

And lastly, let's not attack people for having a difference of opinions here as I will assume, and I hope that you do, that we all want what's best for EOT.

 

PHANTOM

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Put me in the group that enjoyed the new (to me) style of EOT. This was my first EOT since 2013 and here is what I noticed.

1. All of the targets seemed much closer than I remembered as far as distance from the shooter and from the next target.

2. There were plenty of opportunities for the shooter to be creative but along with that plenty of opportunities for brain fade in the middle of the stage.

3. All of the reactive props worked correctly (swinger, running plate) for all of the shooters on my posse. We did have a few shotgun kd’s that the wind blew down but they were minimal.

4. Stage instructions were a bit brief and I felt could be a touch more detailed.

5. Amenities like water on the stage, Dusty Garnett bringing gator aid and snacks for us .... Outstanding 

6. Not as many vendors as I remembered 

While I had a pretty poor match I think the overall feeling was good 

and I appreciate all the hard work, planning and dedication of those who put it on

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

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Phantom,  Your right on the attacking someone else’s opinion so I apologize.  As for people not coming, thats on them. First off there are a lot of people that don’t stand a snow balls chance,  so what?   Is that really why people come to these major matches?  I used to go all the time when I wasn’t very good.  It has always been more than shooting to me and always will be.  In your logic everyone who comes to a major event expects to win a buckle?  Is that what your saying?   Like your Tag line at the bottom of your profile,  Very few will remember who did what in a couple weeks anyway.  As for watering it down,  why do we have to have a high number of clean shooters and why is that the measure?  The shooters speed sets that, not the targets.   My P had nothing to do with the targets or the stage,  I lost track and shot the wrong target. I own that.   I just think that the World Championship should have a degree of difficulty that puts a wee bit of pressure on everyone and personally I don’t think 3 yard plates does that.  

 

Sorry again for the personal attack and look forward to seeing you down the trail.

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

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2 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

Phantom,  Your right on the attacking someone else’s opinion so I apologize.  As for people not coming, thats on them. First off there are a lot of people that don’t stand a snow balls chance,  so what?   Is that really why people come to these major matches?  I used to go all the time when I wasn’t very good.  It has always been more than shooting to me and always will be.  In your logic everyone who comes to a major event expects to win a buckle?  Is that what your saying?   Like your Tag line at the bottom of your profile,  Very few will remember who did what in a couple weeks anyway.  As for watering it down,  why do we have to have a high number of clean shooters and why is that the measure?  The shooters speed sets that, not the targets.   My P had nothing to do with the targets or the stage,  I lost track and shot the wrong target. I own that.   I just think that the World Championship should have a degree of difficulty that puts a wee bit of pressure on everyone and personally I don’t think 3 yard plates does that.  

 

Sorry again for the personal attack and look forward to seeing you down the trail.

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

You misunderstood my logic. I said that the majority of EOT participants have little chance of winning, therefore there is something else that motivates them to spend the time and money to go to Edgewood NM to shoot a match.

 

I NEVER brought up the issue of Clean Matches...so...

 

I NEVER brought up the idea of three yard plates...so...

 

Why is it that folks take things to the extreme when considering alternatives??

 

I think that attendance will suffer. My stoopid opinion. What would I do if I was Emperor?

 

1. Pistols and rifles in a smidgen and stagger them vertically a bit more.

2. Reduce some of the extreme angles

3. Put windows in that one facade that has the openings so that spotters can see better.

4. Put a barrier of some sort on those stages like the bar cuz I almost lost a shooter over the edge...

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

Clean with a “P” Billy,  

 

I am in the same boat as Doc and Billy,  Granted I may have a little different perspective as a Frontiersman.  I tend to shoot a bit slower then most other categories.  That said the pistol targets may have appeared a titch out there, but none were more than 6.75 yards.  The rifle and shotgun targets I considered normal.  I guess I don’t understand why anyone would not attend a World Championship because they thought it was too hard.  What the should you expect of a World Championship.   It is supposed to be a test of the best of the best.  As stated there were no P traps, great stages and descriptions, good movement and  lots of options on how and where to stage your guns.  I understand that in a sense CAS is in the entertainment business but that doesn’t mean that they should water down the stages so people can say they shot clean.  I don’t understand that mentality at all and honestly if thats how they feel I hope they do stay home.   The World and National Championships should be set up to bring out the best and not just status quo.   

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

The highlighted statement above is not what would be good for EOT or any match! If you lose the lower and mid pack shooters from the match, it will cease to be financially able to support itself! This middle group being large is what pays the bills on all matches IMO. This was my 7th EOT , and while I experienced the best overall posse I've ever been part of,  my match was a train wreck from the start which has nothing to do with difficulty of the match but instead repetitive failure of my rifle!

 

Just some observations.....

The stage writing was straight forward as has been stated, but was soft on written detail which works to the detriment of some shooters as much as allowing creativity for the upper ability levels .

The main tent and amenities were excellent.

Whisky and Whiskey on Friday night was superb !

The revamped layout of town with the main tent and Gem Saloon being relocated was a big improvement which reduced the back and forth to attend multiple functions as well.

The passions expressed at the TG meeting were a good sign of dedicated individuals that show a care for the game. Black Jack Zack did a good job of keeping discussions on point and moving IMO! {I do believe that he could herd cats!}

 

The 29  clean matches seems low to me, but its done.  Guess we wait until next year and try it all over again:)

 

Edited by Captain Clark
punctuation and grammer

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I am well aware of the challenges and effort required to put on a shoot.

So please take my opinions as solely that; opinions - not shots.

 

This was my first EOT; so I cannot speak first hand regarding what it used to be - but I spoke to a lot of shooters to make the decision to go.  

 

Overall - it was not a bad shoot.

It just was not the shoot I expected.

 

So, fwiw, if anyone is interested...

I have some opinions and expectations.

 

Opinion...

Pistol target placement was a little further out than my personal preference.

Expectation...

AND further out than previous matches based on conversation with attendees from the last few years.

 

Opinion...

There was an over abundance of shooter positioning requiring targets to be engaged at angles.  

Expectation...

Angled target placement/ engagement creates a visually smaller target surface and (sometimes) odd splash patterns. 

I understand some of these angled placements were in play to allow shooters choice of direction.  But as there seemed to be no lack of available targets (and duplicate shotgun arrays were common) - the simple addition of duplicate rifle arrays would have far better served.

As a fellow match director; this seemed to be a design element that was not completely considered.

 

Opinion...

While the physical stages themselves were for the most part fine - the shooters book stage descriptions were ridiculously brief and nearly incomplete.  

Expectation...

I have personal experience with the challenges inherent to get Posse Marshall consistentcy even with much more detailed instructions.  I expected the World Championship to provide stages with minimal ambiguity to ensure 30 posses and 600 shooters shoot the same match.

 

Did any of the above sour me to where I won't come back?

No.

 

Am I disappointed with the match versus my expectations of the match?

Yes.

 

I don't think the EOT has to be the end all, be all "challenging" shooters contest that some wish it to be.

I think Winter Range fills that niche just fine.

 

I think EOT should simply be the "Best" match that SASS can be.

Best written stages.

Best target placements.

Best opportunity for our shooters to attend a major match and walk away smiling.

Best opportunity for our spectators to see our GAME at its best.

 

A member of the Wild Bunch made a comment to me, quite a few years back, that I took to heart.

It was a smaller annual shoot; maybe a couple hundred shooters; at that time around 26 categories.

He said, "There are two hundred folks here and only twenty six can win.  You have to provide a good reason for the other hundred and seventy four to come back".

 

My daughter buckled - so she wants to return.

I didn't buckle - so I want to return to redeem myself.

Ok, we have our "good" reason to come back.

 

My wife placed at the end of the score sheet. 

No buckle.

No expectation to buckle if she returns  next year.

 

Frustrated by the target placements and angles.

Confused by the brevity of the stage descriptions.

 

As overall shooter number 600 something...

What's her good reason to return?

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This was my first EOT, and I can say for certain it will not be my last. The first day I made the mistake of trying to go too fast, and both my raw times and penalties showed it.  Learned from the guidance of some more experienced competitors, and did much better the next two days.   I personally like how the stages were set up.  A lot of movement, and had to keep thinking.  Personally I'd like to see some rifle targets either farther out or about 1/4 the size they are.  I'm personally not a fan of the "stand and deliver" type stages that seem to be common in some places.  The stages presented were the very type of stages I was hoping to see.

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My goal is to make an EOT one day and I will make sure I do.

 

I had a similar disc to this with Painted Mohawk at the NSW Titles (in Australia for those who dont know me from my posts). My view FWIW is that I enjoy shooting the course I find in front of me.

 

By that I mean I like the challenge of being given the problem, working out the best solution (for my skills) and then executing it.

 

Small and Far, Big and Near all require different approaches to get the best result and my skills will mean a different approach from someone else. To me this is the joy of this sport. Variety is the spice of life and I dont see why shooting should be any different.

 

Sure some do better on the fast bits and others on the accuracy counts stages (thats where my skills lie) but I would hate to have all pistol shots at 20m (we do that at one of the clubs I shoot at) or all at 3M.

 

VIVA La Difference

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10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm fearful that this new philosophy will hurt attendance.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

Phantom

Unfortunately, I was unable to attend. What philosophy are you referring to?

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I agree with what has been said about the stages not being the best for most shooters. I saw quite a few very frustrated shooters about to give up or thinking they already blew the match. It seemed like an unusually high number left before the awards.

 

The way things were laid out and those extreme angles did throw you off and made things unnecessary difficult for their distances. The targets should have been angled towards where they were shot from rather than always straight forward. There was leeway on where to shoot from but it was very difficult to figure out exactly where to shoot from that gave you the best balance of distance, angle and least amount of movement. I think that did make it too confusing for less experienced shooters and some stages didn't have any good choices. They need to limit it to just a few choices. 

 

I also want to add that the stages highly favored those shooting doubles over a 97. There were way too many stages that you had the ability or requirement to take steps between shooting pairs of targets allowing the double guys to shuck and load in between.

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3 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Unfortunately, I was unable to attend. What philosophy are you referring to?

The philosophy that the match should "test" the shooters ability.

 

I would be all for that if EOT was an event that one has to qualify for ... But it's not.

 

Phantom

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Gotcha, just didn't know where you were goin.

I agree, I think our world championship should not be a harder match, just a better, more grand match.

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51 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

I agree with what has been said about the stages not being the best for most shooters. I saw quite a few very frustrated shooters about to give up or thinking they already blew the match. It seemed like an unusually high number left before the awards.

 

The way things were laid out and those extreme angles did throw you off and made things unnecessary difficult for their distances. The targets should have been angled towards where they were shot from rather than always straight forward. There was leeway on where to shoot from but it was very difficult to figure out exactly where to shoot from that gave you the best balance of distance, angle and least amount of movement. I think that did make it too confusing for less experienced shooters and some stages didn't have any good choices. They need to limit it to just a few choices. 

 

I also want to add that the stages highly favored those shooting doubles over a 97. There were way too many stages that you had the ability or requirement to take steps between shooting pairs of targets allowing the double guys to shuck and load in between.

Angling the targets toward the shooter is a bad idea for splatter control reasons. They should always be parallel to the firing line. 

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I agree with Doc Pain,     Stages were great, targets were easy enough to hit if you watched your sights a little.

 

I think these were some of the best stages that we have seen at EOT.  (I've been to 6 EOT's @ Founders ranch 2005, 08,14,16,18,19)

The stage instructions  allowed the shooter options on most of the stages.  Left handers could go the opposite direction if desired.

 

While i didn't shoot my best match this week,     I don't think it was the  stage design, description or target placement that kept me from shooting well.

Yep, it was the monkey behind the gun that didn't do his job to shoot a clean match.    I guess the pressure was more than I could bare...

 

Big Thank you to Lassiter, Deuce and all of the workers that made this a great shoot !

 

 

3GC

 

 

 

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I was at a big shoot several years ago with "parallel" (to the firing line) targets and a large open firing line with several stages. I had a large piece of lead come off a target from an adjacent  stage and almost take my ear lobe off. If that target had been square to the shooter, that never would have happened. If the shooter is shooting targets at an angle (even if the targets are square to the firing line) THAT'S when you get crazy splatter.

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In agreement with Phantom and Creeker.

 

Championships-

  • Does the NFL extend the football field, narrow width of goal posts or make other changes for the Super Bowl?
  • Does the NBA extend the basketball court, raise goal height/reduce size or otherwise make changes for championship games?
  • Does the MLB increase distance between bases, extend the playing field or make other changes for the World Series?

The challenge of CAS is many faceted.  The World Championship is already a challenge in that you must keep your equipment, ammo and yourself performing for 3 days/12 stages.  Some good luck doesn’t hurt as well.  Increasing the difficulty by more distant/angled target placement would seem unnecessary. 

 

There were some harsh comments made regarding the lack of opportunity to shoot a clean match.  This is an important goal for some shooters.

 

We are not professionals, nor are we competing for expensive prizes.  Most are “weekend warriors” who love to shoot in competition with no qualifying requirements, but most of all to have FUN.  If shooters are not having fun a certain percentage will go elsewhere to spend their time and money.  

 

We ALL want SASS and EOT to not just exist, but grow so more can enjoy the fun and camaraderie of old and new friends.

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Are the 2019 EOT stages published online?  

 

We lost our local stage scenario writer to a motorcycle accident and I had the idea to using some or the EOT stages at our nexr match. 

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3 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Are the 2019 EOT stages published online?  

 

We lost our local stage scenario writer to a motorcycle accident and I had the idea to using some or the EOT stages at our nexr match. 

 

Jokers Wild had them posted on Facebook, but I can't find them at the moment.

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22 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Angling the targets toward the shooter is a bad idea for splatter control reasons. They should always be parallel to the firing line. 

Certainly agree here and on many of the stages where targets where angled away from shooter, that was mostly IF shooter did not want to engage more to a parallel position.  Granted, the move was a "time taker", but that target off to left or right appearing with less mass, and becoming perhaps a miss due to not moving...well, the gamble was on the shooter.  Exception being I believe Stage Five when shooter charged into window finding pistol targets not directly in front.  I told my posse to make note to that. [It was pistol and shotgun at right or left window and shotgun knockdowns where more directly in front of window where pistol targets were more to shooters left concealed by wall ( or right if shooter went to left window, a mirror stage.)]

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Angling the targets toward the shooter is a bad idea for splatter control reasons. They should always be parallel to the firing line. 

I can understand that. Thanks!

 

But I would think there could be ways to control splatter that could allow for exceptions to "always be parallel to the firing line" rule. Like if the targets are right next to the berm or an expendable prop next to it. 

Edited by Chicken George*
Or they could have the area where the splatter would be blocked off.

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10 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Exception being I believe Stage Five when shooter charged into window finding pistol targets not directly in front

Yes, those pistol targets were really tough. I would love to know how many shooters missed those. That was our last stage and shooter on our posse who was clean the whole match missed one of those and got an edger and you better believe he was trying his hardest to be clean. 

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What's sad right now is that there are some that think that just because one has a disagreement with the stages, that they are being disrespectful towards those that did all the work.

 

I personally respect the hell outta all those that worked their butts off... And some of the responses I've received privately has almost made me wish that I just kept my mouth shut.

 

Wish folks would understand that we all want what's best for SASS and EOT...

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1 hour ago, Chicken George* said:

I agree with what has been said about the stages not being the best for most shooters. I saw quite a few very frustrated shooters about to give up or thinking they already blew the match. It seemed like an unusually high number left before the awards.

 

The way things were laid out and those extreme angles did throw you off and made things unnecessary difficult for their distances. The targets should have been angled towards where they were shot from rather than always straight forward. There was leeway on where to shoot from but it was very difficult to figure out exactly where to shoot from that gave you the best balance of distance, angle and least amount of movement. I think that did make it too confusing for less experienced shooters and some stages didn't have any good choices. They need to limit it to just a few choices. 

 

I also want to add that the stages highly favored those shooting doubles over a 97. There were way too many stages that you had the ability or requirement to take steps between shooting pairs of targets allowing the double guys to shuck and load in between.

I have to disagree with you about the stages favoring doubles this year.  I felt like it was a big improvement this year over last year.  I dont have my stage book in front of me but I think there was only one stage where the shotgun was split, the rest of the stages once you started with your shotgun you engaged all the targets.  Movement between shots doesn't favor one style of shotgun over another.

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I'm with Phantom (this time). I am not trying to criticize! I was just trying to give helpful feedback. I can't remember if EOT does surveys like WR. Everyone in charge did an amazing job and I absolutely couldn't do better. I am amazed at the time and effort they put in. Everything in the match was awesome. The stages were fine. I liked a lot of things about them. I just have an opinion on how they could be improved in order to make the match a little more enjoyable. I may be wrong on what people will like. But if people don't give feedback, good and bad, how will they know how to make it the best match possible. 

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I will say that while it wasn't the match I was expecting I like this years setup better than I did last years.  I will be back next year it doesn't matter to me how the targets are set up.

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1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

@Warden Callaway sent you a message on Facebook, the stages are in the SASS Match Book group.

 

Thanks,

 

I can get the attachment open but not found a way to save it or email it.  It's stuck in some kind of cloud. -_-

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