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Mustang Gregg

RO 1 classes for ALL?

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That's like making a class on Elvis Presley history mandatory for a Bachelor's degree...

 

Some of the worst informed shooters are the ones that have taken the RO course. They think they know it all cuz they're "educated".

 

All one needs to do is read the manual, spend time shooting matches in a role that doesn't require decision making... Keep your mouth shut for a while and learn.

 

But hey, that's just me...

 

Phantom

Know its not just you! that's just what think too! V.D.

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

...

 

Some of the worst informed shooters are the ones that have taken the RO course. They think they know it all cuz they're "educated".

 

All one needs to do is read the manual, spend time shooting matches in a role that doesn't require decision making... Keep your mouth shut for a while and learn.

 

But hey, that's just me...

 

Phantom

It's not just you.

 

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I'd love to make it to an ROI class. However there hasnt been one when i'm available in my area yet. Making it mandatory to be a SASS member would make it so I couldnt participate in sanctioned shoots. 

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

Hey, I am edumacated But my wife keeps reassuring  me that I do not know it all.  :P :FlagAm:

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I could "get on board" with "the RO I course is recommended for all shooters." I remember helping another ROII (way back when we could give classes) give the ROI class. A junior shooter did not pass. I think that was very discouraging for him as we didn't see him after that. It may have been that he had other interests, like football, as he entered HS soon and started playing FB after that. However, not passing was not something that endeared our sport to him.

 

Many of our younger (?-55, in school or still working) shooters do not have time, proximity, or inclination :unsure: to devote to taking the class(es).

 

As someone who had no shooting skills prior to SASS, if I had not had a good teacher (Hubby) or some motivation (hey, I could hang out with him and wear costumes), and, if I had failed a test that was mandatory, I might have been discouraged and quit early on. Being discouraged is not something we want to foster. While, maybe, being indignant about not doing well at a match is something we do want to watch out for and take steps to control.

 

As with many things, appropriate encouragement and cautions are good, inappropriate or untimely lecturing in not good.

 

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I do not believe that requiring everyone to take the RO classes would be enforceable. Motivating folks to take the class is the best way to get them involved enough to do WANT to do it. I did it from the very beginning until Jan 1 this year, and usually had a good number of eager students in the class.  The new Instructor requirements stated that the RO I class MUST BE A MINIMUM OF 6 HRS. I refused to agree to that, so my long time as a RO Instructor has come to a end.  The suggested 6-8 hr minimum for the RO II was also just a ludicrous. If it takes the instructor that long, then OK.. it takes that long, but this idea of telling me that I MUST spend at least 6 hr to teach this new course is not palatable. This new requirement will do two things IMO.  It will hurt the large matches that offered both the RO I and the RO II classes on the same day. Now, No one can take both classes in the same day because of the new time requirement.  That alone will hurt the number of folks that will take the course, and will kill those that want to refresh. It will also put the RO Instructors in a tough spot.... now they can't participate in many side events. A great deal of effort was put into developing the RO courses and the Instructor program. No doubt that it could have used a bit of updating, but this complete revamp was, IMO, not totally thought out before it was put into play. I strongly encourage everyone to study the rules and attend a course when they can spare the time. There are some very good instructors out there and they can greatly enhance your knowledge of the game. 

sb 

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3 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

I do not believe that requiring everyone to take the RO classes would be enforceable. Motivating folks to take the class is the best way to get them involved enough to do WANT to do it. I did it from the very beginning until Jan 1 this year, and usually had a good number of eager students in the class.  The new Instructor requirements stated that the RO I class MUST BE A MINIMUM OF 6 HRS. I refused to agree to that, so my long time as a RO Instructor has come to a end.  The suggested 6-8 hr minimum for the RO II was also just a ludicrous. If it takes the instructor that long, then OK.. it takes that long, but this idea of telling me that I MUST spend at least 6 hr to teach this new course is not palatable. This new requirement will do two things IMO.  It will hurt the large matches that offered both the RO I and the RO II classes on the same day. Now, No one can take both classes in the same day because of the new time requirement.  That alone will hurt the number of folks that will take the course, and will kill those that want to refresh. It will also put the RO Instructors in a tough spot.... now they can't participate in many side events. A great deal of effort was put into developing the RO courses and the Instructor program. No doubt that it could have used a bit of updating, but this complete revamp was, IMO, not totally thought out before it was put into play. I strongly encourage everyone to study the rules and attend a course when they can spare the time. There are some very good instructors out there and they can greatly enhance your knowledge of the game. 

sb 

 

6 HOURS!? I was not aware of that requirement. If that is the case I won't be taking my RO1 refresher in May...

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Snakebite, it’s not even about whether the idea of a six hour minimum is ‘palatable’ it’s whether it’s needed or grounded in sound pedagogy. It’s neither! It’s educational malpractice! Six hours! At the three hour mark retention is a fraction of what it was at the beginning.  Students in a class like that will be lucky if they retain a third of what they learned.

 

2.5 hours max. If it can’t be taught in that time frame it should take multiple days.

 

I have a staff of over 200 educators teaching much more complex subjects than RO1 and RO2 and I would never allow class times exceeding 3 hours.

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16 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Snakebite, it’s not even about whether the idea of a six hour minimum is ‘palatable’ it’s whether it’s needed or grounded in sound pedagogy. It’s neither! It’s educational malpractice! Six hours! At the three hour mark retention is a fraction of what it was at the beginning.  Students in a class like that will be lucky if they retain a third of what they learned.

 

2.5 hours max. If it can’t be taught in that time frame it should take multiple days.

 

I have a staff of over 200 educators teaching much more complex subjects than RO1 and RO2 and I would never allow class times exceeding 3 hours.

Have taught "B" Schools for the DOD, I agree with you. 

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2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

I do not believe that requiring everyone to take the RO classes would be enforceable. Motivating folks to take the class is the best way to get them involved enough to do WANT to do it. I did it from the very beginning until Jan 1 this year, and usually had a good number of eager students in the class.  The new Instructor requirements stated that the RO I class MUST BE A MINIMUM OF 6 HRS. I refused to agree to that, so my long time as a RO Instructor has come to a end.  The suggested 6-8 hr minimum for the RO II was also just a ludicrous. If it takes the instructor that long, then OK.. it takes that long, but this idea of telling me that I MUST spend at least 6 hr to teach this new course is not palatable. This new requirement will do two things IMO.  It will hurt the large matches that offered both the RO I and the RO II classes on the same day. Now, No one can take both classes in the same day because of the new time requirement.  That alone will hurt the number of folks that will take the course, and will kill those that want to refresh. It will also put the RO Instructors in a tough spot.... now they can't participate in many side events. A great deal of effort was put into developing the RO courses and the Instructor program. No doubt that it could have used a bit of updating, but this complete revamp was, IMO, not totally thought out before it was put into play. I strongly encourage everyone to study the rules and attend a course when they can spare the time. There are some very good instructors out there and they can greatly enhance your knowledge of the game. 

sb 

Wow, I also didn't know they updated to 6 hrs.   Well, I am betting that stats on people getting their RO pins will tell pretty quickly what members think of that.  I tell you the class as it used to be moved too slowly.  I can't imagine what 6hrs would feel like.  Only justification for 6 hrs is if you actually took people out to a range and walked them through actual scenarios.   6 hrs watching someone read a PowerPoint is inhumane. 

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I took the RO1 course before I shot my first match because it was available.  Personaly I'm of the opinion that a one day course is an inconsequential amount of time to commit to the sport when compared to everything else that goes into it.  I will be taking the RO2 course in a few months as well for this very reason.

 

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 It’s hard enough to get people to join or stay members, right Lumpy, let alone take a six hour class.  At your next  monthly match take a poll on who is a current SASS member, you might be surprised. 

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When we began CAS we were fortunate to have access to an RO I course during our first year.  Having little experience, I found it very helpful in all aspects from me understanding the scoring and safety to understanding the posse tasks.  Things have evolved in 19 years.  This discussion and the one on doing away with spotting are proof.  We still all need to all be aware of the rules, especially as they apply to safety.  I remember those shooter meetings where the safety rules were read from start to finish (back when we thought they were long then) to none being read today.  However,  I still see a need for some safety precautions to be stated.  At our matches I have begun highlighting some of the areas of concern and giving a very quick "safety statement" in the shooter meeting.  I have a list of those things I feel warrant reminders - watch the crossdraw, watch your 170, be aware of how you carry your long guns (ie. low carry or vertical), etc.  If we have new shooters, it could be still be brief but slightly more detailed and often including a request for the posse to help the new shooter and for the shooter to not be afraid to ask questions, etc.  If we have experienced something at our match or another match that warrants attention, I bring it up.  Perhaps we have info on the RO courses being offered and we pass it on.  Once a shooter asked for clarification of a rule and we discussed it.  In total, it might add an average of 1 or 2 minutes to the shooter meeting over the course of our season.  TGs at our club and others usually give a quick update on any changes or discussions on potential changes.  New shooters are advised to check out the shooter handbook online, attend courses if they can, or come to a set up day for some one on one help should they need it.  I feel that this helps our shooters both old and new stay in the loop when it comes to the rules of the game.  

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If you read the state shoot and above contracts...

 

All Range Officers must have completed the SASS Basic Range Operations Safety Course. (RO I)

 

 

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19 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

I believe it should be required within 1 year of the first match a person shoots in. 

 

I also wish we could figure out how to shorten the RO1 class so that it doesn't take half a day to do it.

In fairness very recently it’s gone from 8 hours to 4 hours. We have a lot to cover. It’s not going to do much good if we dillute it enough to have no substance.

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It won't work, you'd have a hard time getting EVERYONE to take the class, who's gonna teach it? Will it cost? Sometimes you have a hard time getting people just to help with the posse duties!

 

Great idea in theory but it'll never work! You'll chase away people from the sport!

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42 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If you read the state shoot and above contracts...

 

All Range Officers must have completed the SASS Basic Range Operations Safety Course. (RO I)

 

 

 

 State or above all participants must also be SASS members. 

 

 State matches typically have between 150 and 300 Shooters

 

With let’s say 2 range officers per posse that can be accomplished with less than 30.

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In response to the comments regarding qualifications for ROs at state level matches.  We have no problem fulfilling that requirement at all.  We usually have an over abundance of qualified volunteers for the job.  Thankfully!

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I remember telling China Camp years ago that I needed to take the ROII course for running the timer at WR (IIRC).

 

He laughed and said he'd never even taken the ROI class.

 

What makes folks think they need to take a class in order play this game??

 

Phantom

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24 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

 

 State or above all participants must also be SASS members. 

 

 State matches typically have between 150 and 300 Shooters

 

With let’s say 2 range officers per posse that can be accomplished with less than 30.

State matches typically have between 150 and 300 shooters? Maybe 10 years ago.

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2 hours ago, Wyatt said:

 It’s hard enough to get people to join or stay members, right Lumpy, let alone take a six hour class.  At your next  monthly match take a poll on who is a current SASS member, you might be surprised. 

One club I shoot with, maybe 60% are SASS members, and none are current RO1 or RO2.

We haven't had a TG since ours died about 5 years ago...........

My wife:wub: and I were RO2's, many years ago.

OLG

 

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Before the RO training started we had a pretty simple system. Shooters that had been around for a while just mentored newer shooters and explained the rules. You could run the timer until you did something stoopid and then they would take it from you, kind of a time out. It worked. Then, I'm thinking someone determined some money could be made by running RO classes and now we have people that are qualified on paper, but not really qualified to run the timer or posse, never saw anyone fail the test in the classroom. 

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47 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

 

 State or above all participants must also be SASS members. 

 

 State matches typically have between 150 and 300 Shooters

 

With let’s say 2 range officers per posse that can be accomplished with less than 30.

You may need to re-read the definition of range officer in the RO I. Spotters and scorekeepers are also range officers. As well as unloading and loading table officers.

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6 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

You may need to re-read the definition of range officer in the RO I. Spotters and scorekeepers are also range officers. As well as unloading and loading table officers.

 

 I know for a fact that at state above matches all of those positions have been filled by shooters that have never taken an RO class. 

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7 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

 

 I know for a fact that at state above matches all of those positions have been filled by shooters that have never taken an RO class. 

And I know of other stipulations in the contract that aren't being met by state and above matches as well. Doesn't necessarily make it right. Makes me wonder...What other sass rules or contract obligations is the match not following?

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@Wyatt here's another thing that I never understood.there is no way to validate whether someone is ro1 qualified or not.sass maintains a list of who's all paid up with their memberships, and requires that matches send off their registered sure list so that sass can validate that everyone that's listed is current with their membership. To my knowledge, there isn't anything like that, to validate ro status.

 

And let's even look a step beyond that. I agree with @Phantom, SASS #54973 in that just because you attended an RO class does it mean you know anything. Especially if you attended it 10 years ago. It is a constant state of learning, especially since the rules are in a constant state of changing.

@Phantom, SASS #54973

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45 minutes ago, Assassin said:

> snip <

Shooters that had been around for a while just mentored newer shooters and explained the rules.

> snip <

I'm sure that worked some places but I do remember so many "experienced" shooters having their own version of the rules (and a lot of rules you would never find in any rule book). I think it was even worse then because a lot of the shooters didn't have (or use) the internet.

While that still exists today IMHO ... I think it is kept more in check due to the classes, the forum and online documentation. 

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1 hour ago, Patagonia Pete said:

I'm sure that worked some places but I do remember so many "experienced" shooters having their own version of the rules (and a lot of rules you would never find in any rule book). I think it was even worse then because a lot of the shooters didn't have (or use) the internet.

While that still exists today IMHO ... I think it is kept more in check due to the classes, the forum and online documentation. 

You need to know very few rules in order to play this game.

 

If you choose to run a posse then you need to know more... Mandating a class is silly and just adds another barrier to entry into this game.

 

Phantom

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From Range Operations Management, Oct, 2018, Page 1 https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/SASS RO-ROCManagementPlan.pdf

 RO – I Course duration is a minimum of six hours, longer depending on class size and interaction

 RO – I Course certification course costs the student $25 
 

RO–II Course duration is approximately six–eight hours, depending on class size and interaction 

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14 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You need to know very few rules in order to play this game.

 

If you choose to run a posse then you need to know more... Mandating a class is silly and just adds another barrier to entry into this game.

 

Phantom

 

And there you have it.

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9 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You need to know very few rules in order to play this game.

 

If you choose to run a posse then you need to know more... Mandating a class is silly and just adds another barrier to entry into this game.

 

Phantom

Didn't say I thought there was any need to mandate a class ... 

And ... for anyone who wants to play any game w/o knowing the rules ... well ... that's their own personal decision. 

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22 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You need to know very few rules in order to play this game.

 

If you choose to run a posse then you need to know more... Mandating a class is silly and just adds another barrier to entry into this game.

 

Phantom

like most sports endeavors, 90% of the calls that are made come from 10% of the rulebook.

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RO 1 was implemented in 2000.

Prior to that it was pretty much the governors that taught many of us the rules and how to run the posse.

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What is the minimum number of RO 1, 2’s you should have on each posse at a state or above SASS match?

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1 hour ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Didn't say I thought there was any need to mandate a class ... 

And ... for anyone who wants to play any game w/o knowing the rules ... well ... that's their own personal decision. 

Ah, the rub!

 

So you know ALL the rules without referencing the rule book (s)???

 

Again, very few rules are need to be known in order to play... And the idea of mandating an RO class (please reference OP), is overkill...INHO.

 

PHANTOM

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