17 dead in another school shooting

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

1 hour ago, Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 said:

In 1976, a bomber set off his weapon in the Suffolk County Courthouse in Boston, killing two and injuring others.  Before this, every courthouse in the state was wide open; just walk in.  No searches, no security, no scanners.  Almost overnight, the metal detectors, teams of police and entrance restrictions appeared.  Was it clumsy?  For awhile, but over time it has become streamlined and manageable.  Every day, thousands of people flow in and out of the courthouses.  To my knowledge, there has not been another violent armed episode.

 

If we can do this in courthouses, why can't we do it in schools?  I can't believe that there is less public will to protect children than there is to protect judges and lawyers.  It is inexcusable to continue to fail to protect our schools in the face of a clear, repeating, danger.

 

Armed security beats slaughter, plain and simple. 

 

LL

The schools need to be removed from gun free zones.  And I mean all schools. A three or four time/day patrol (random times, switched often) by an armed LEO, along with a few trained armed staff members, would end most of this rather quickly.

[Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022]

I have long advocated for several changes in our Nation's culture. First, an end to movies and TV shows that depict the use of firearms in a criminal manner, or that glorify violence.   That will take a huge change in the Hollywood- TV media culture thinking.  

Secondly, federal death penalty for anyone convicted of using a gun in any crime. No appeals, no years on death row drawing on the public funds. Ninety days after conviction, public hanging in the town or city where it happened. Televise it, make it a school outing. Sounds harsh, but when people see a hanging, they will start to change the thinking that has become so prevalent. What about someone wrongly convicted? A terrible thing, but it would serve one purpose, people would be very careful about their activities that might make them a target of suspicion.

Today's citizenship by and large has no connection to the consequences of criminal action. News media glorifies the mother who is crying at the killing of her son who was robbing people with a gun and is killed by a licensed gun owner. That has to stop.  I know this will touch nerves, but so does someone who fails to heed the laws in place and does something like this. Laws do not stop a law abiding person from breaking them, criminals by definition break laws.

[Wapaloosie73]

1 hour ago, Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 said:

I have long advocated for several changes in our Nation's culture. First, an end to movies and TV shows that depict the use of firearms in a criminal manner, or that glorify violence.   That will take a huge change in the Hollywood- TV media culture thinking.  

Secondly, federal death penalty for anyone convicted of using a gun in any crime. No appeals, no years on death row drawing on the public funds. Ninety days after conviction, public hanging in the town or city where it happened. Televise it, make it a school outing. Sounds harsh, but when people see a hanging, they will start to change the thinking that has become so prevalent. What about someone wrongly convicted? A terrible thing, but it would serve one purpose, people would be very careful about their activities that might make them a target of suspicion.

Today's citizenship by and large has no connection to the consequences of criminal action. News media glorifies the mother who is crying at the killing of her son who was robbing people with a gun and is killed by a licensed gun owner. That has to stop.  I know this will touch nerves, but so does someone who fails to heed the laws in place and does something like this. Laws do not stop a law abiding person from breaking them, criminals by definition break laws.

 

 

I do not necessarily disagree with what your saying. But many of these shooters are in a “death by cop” mindset anyhow. So what good is a death penalty? And how do you stop people from watching violence with the internet? I’m also not for eroding the 1st Amendment either. I do not want to live in a censorship styled China society.

 

I completely agree on the “compassion for the criminal” mindset needs to be stamped out. Absolutely.

 

But the immediately fix that will have real consequences is to treat every school like an airport. Put every school under the umbrella of homeland security. No one gets in or out of that place with out going through a metal detector. And armed guards run the show.  It’s sad for sure.

 

But what good is it to send a SEAL team half way around the world to stop terrorism if we cannot stop it in our own schools? What good is it to defend the DMZ in South Korea if we cannot defend our own children? Where are our priorities!?

 

 

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

As an educator for 42 years, I don't think I could standby and watch someone kill my kids.  Yet my school system will not let me carry concealed, nor do we have school resource officers.  I'm angry and frustrated. 

 

Our children are our most valuable resource and it should be a priority of the government, state and federal, to make sure they are safe.  Banning guns is a "pipe dream" and is not the solution.  Schools need secured and monitored entrances and armed security.  I know of several churches that have armed security teams present at every service at no expense to the taxpayer.  I would love to see a national program developed to help capable educators become security officers.  I would gladly pay for my own advanced training.    

[Wapaloosie73]

5 minutes ago, TN Mongo, SASS #61450 said:

As an educator for 42 years, I don't think I could standby and watch someone kill my kids.  Yet my school system will not let me carry concealed, nor do we have school resource officers.  I'm angry and frustrated. 

 

Our children are our most valuable resource and it should be a priority of the government, state and federal, to make sure they are safe.  Banning guns is a "pipe dream" and is not the solution.  Schools need secured and monitored entrances and armed security.  I know of several churches that have armed security teams present at every service at no expense to the taxpayer.  I would love to see a national program developed to help capable educators become security officers.  I would gladly pay for my own advanced training.    

 

Write your congressman. I wrote mine. No matter if it’s a federal program or a state by state one, this is the only logical solution.

[Wapaloosie73]

Just found this.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40353408

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 hour ago, Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 said:

I have long advocated for several changes in our Nation's culture. First, an end to movies and TV shows that depict the use of firearms in a criminal manner, or that glorify violence.   That will take a huge change in the Hollywood- TV media culture thinking.  

Secondly, federal death penalty for anyone convicted of using a gun in any crime. No appeals, no years on death row drawing on the public funds. Ninety days after conviction, public hanging in the town or city where it happened. Televise it, make it a school outing. Sounds harsh, but when people see a hanging, they will start to change the thinking that has become so prevalent. What about someone wrongly convicted? A terrible thing, but it would serve one purpose, people would be very careful about their activities that might make them a target of suspicion.

Today's citizenship by and large has no connection to the consequences of criminal action. News media glorifies the mother who is crying at the killing of her son who was robbing people with a gun and is killed by a licensed gun owner. That has to stop.  I know this will touch nerves, but so does someone who fails to heed the laws in place and does something like this. Laws do not stop a law abiding person from breaking them, criminals by definition break laws.

Death Penalty has never been a successful deterrent. The most famous example of this is in England they used to hang pick pockets. The most lucrative time for pick pockets was during the public executions. I mean think about that. People are literally committing the exact crime  that others are being executed right in front of them for. And as Wapaloosa says, many of these folks are in it for the death by cop suicide because they are too much of a coward to just take themselves out and leave everyone alone.

 

It is my opinion that first step would be to stop publishing the event and name of the perpetrator. Don't make these jackals famous. Mass shooters die in obscurity. That should be the policy. It won't completely stop them, but it will stop the ones only in it for the "blaze of glory".

 

Along with that, I believe we need to increase the education budget 10 fold. Maybe even more. We live in a society where schools are being shuttered due to budget cuts, which is causing other schools to take on the burden. More students, less teachers, bigger class room sizes, etc. This leads to a so much getting dropped through the cracks. We talk about how schools were back in our day, well one of the biggest things about our day is that we had much smaller class sizes, more teacher interaction, a much lower ratio of teachers to students, to the point where there was a more personal feel rather than this get them in and get them out mentality. Teachers' salaries should be increased as well. Bring in the best teachers in the country to take on the task. Also bring in a lot more counselors specializing in stress and mental health. "It's a mental health issue", I always hear. Well let's tackle it then rather than pointing fingers.  Somewhere along the way, we lost our priorities and we as a country are now suffering for it.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

It all comes down to this:

 

If someone wants to do harm to others, they will find a way.

Adding to the stack of laws on the books regarding gun control

 

       

 

will not solve the problem as criminals do not abide by them, only honest people.

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

I’m wondering how many times we have had this discussion in the past few years.....and how many times we will have it in the future before things change.

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

There are many fantasies associated with the ownership and use of firearms. We at SASS/CAS are fully aware of this; our shooting game is almost pure fantasy.

 

I'm an atavistic troglodyte myself in regard to guns. I own lots of them. I've never bought a gun with a synthetic stock, because to me, a rifle or shotgun has a wooden stock. This is obviously a purely personal emotional issue with regard to firearms. So also, I own lots of handguns. All of them are revolvers, except for a single Ruger Mark II .22. Obviously, again, this is a manifestation of a subjective thing personal to me. I simply have no interest in semi-automatic pistols. My carry gun is Ruger LCR (which, I admit, does have polymer parts!).

 

My firearms fantasies involve cowboys, the Old West, and old hunting expeditions in the wildlands, of the kind that, for example, Elmer Keith used to guide as a young man.

 

So, what are the fantasies of those who own AR 15-type rifles?

[Charley Leadville]

18 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

There are many fantasies associated with the ownership and use of firearms. We at SASS/CAS are fully aware of this; our shooting game is almost pure fantasy.

 

I'm an atavistic troglodyte myself in regard to guns. I own lots of them. I've never bought a gun with a synthetic stock, because to me, a rifle or shotgun has a wooden stock. This is obviously a purely personal emotional issue with regard to firearms. So also, I own lots of handguns. All of them are revolvers, except for a single Ruger Mark II .22. Obviously, again, this is a manifestation of a subjective thing personal to me. I simply have no interest in semi-automatic pistols. My carry gun is Ruger LCR (which, I admit, does have polymer parts!).

 

My firearms fantasies involve cowboys, the Old West, and old hunting expeditions in the wildlands, of the kind that, for example, Elmer Keith used to guide as a young man.

 

So, what are the fantasies of those who own AR 15-type rifles?

I have the same fantasies with my AR, or M1, or M1A, or 1903A3, and pistols and shotguns, as I do with my cowboy guns...shoot as many and different matches as I can. 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

22 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

 

So, what are the fantasies of those who own AR 15-type rifles?

Divide and you will conquer. 

Not much else to add.  MT

[Trailrider #896]

"If you see something, say something!" is a mantra that did not work in this case. There were a large number of flags that should have brought this alleged (have to say that, you know, or risk being sued) maniac up short. There are other, similar situations, such as the Aurora, Colorado, movie shooter.  In a FEW cases somebody who said something probably prevented another tragedy.  Just on today's T.V., they told about a grandmother who read her grandson's diary that alerted her.  She found an "AK-47" in his room and reported him.  He was arrested and is facing attempted murder charges.  Similarly, in a suburban Denver high school, several girls conspired to blow up their school.  They were found out (I don't recall if one of the girls admitted it), and at least one girl is serving time in a correctional facility.

OTOH, even when there are definite signs of potential problems, they get buried or ignored.  The Aurora movie theater shooter had sought councilling and was reported to campus police at a college.  They did nothing further!  The result was the massacre in the movie theater!

One thing that might help prevent such things, might be to employ retired veterans (as was suggested on Fox, and by my wife, as well) as security guards.  They would, of course need to be thoroughly psychologically screen and trained, but it might be one thing that could prevent such a horror!

[Wapaloosie73]

46 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

There are many fantasies associated with the ownership and use of firearms. We at SASS/CAS are fully aware of this; our shooting game is almost pure fantasy.

 

I'm an atavistic troglodyte myself in regard to guns. I own lots of them. I've never bought a gun with a synthetic stock, because to me, a rifle or shotgun has a wooden stock. This is obviously a purely personal emotional issue with regard to firearms. So also, I own lots of handguns. All of them are revolvers, except for a single Ruger Mark II .22. Obviously, again, this is a manifestation of a subjective thing personal to me. I simply have no interest in semi-automatic pistols. My carry gun is Ruger LCR (which, I admit, does have polymer parts!).

 

My firearms fantasies involve cowboys, the Old West, and old hunting expeditions in the wildlands, of the kind that, for example, Elmer Keith used to guide as a young man.

 

So, what are the fantasies of those who own AR 15-type rifles?

 

While I like you have fantasies about the old west and days gone by? Your not grasping the big picture.

 

The 2nd Amendment stands here today to ensure our Republic endures against tyranny. I highly recommend reading the federalist papers and other works by our founding fathers to better understand why the Bill of Rights was written. What problems and concerns was it addressing? We as a nation of thirteen colonies had just overthrown by force of arms the British Empire. It was not lost on the founding fathers that we didn’t accomplish this with pitchforks and torches. Without the militia with private MODERN arms and training? The rebellion would not have lasted a day..... Without our militia we would have remained apart of the Common wealth as British subjects. So the founding fathers were very visionary in their wanting to preserve an armed populace against future threats of tyranny. We owe them such a debt of gratitude. So easily we could have ended up like France in which we over throw the Monarchy only to end up with a tyrant like Napoleon in control.

 

Lets talk about our fantasies of the old west....six guns and lever actions. The Henry was called “that damn Yankee rifle you loaded on Sunday and shot all week”. Arguably the Henry was the worlds first “assault rifle”.....I’d much rather MUCH rather, pick a fight with a guy with an AR while armed with a Henry. Than to pick a fight with a guy armed with a Henry while I was armed with a Springfield rifle musket....Boy Howdy!

 

So 640,000 soldiers died in our nations Civil War on both sides. Way more than any other war our nation has ever fought. Not counting civilians..... either. Open rebellion against the federal government in which over 1/10th of our nations population was snuffed out. Massive loss of life...... Rebels were mainly armed with rifle muskets, and only a select few Union units had their hands on repeating rifles such as the Henry and the Spencer. 

 

What a perfect opportunity for gun control! The Feds could have stopped the sale of repeating rifles to civilians, many of which ended up in the hands of Native Americans to be later used against the US Army in conflicts such as the Battle of the Little Bighorn! It would have been an easy and easily justifiable act to limit civilians to muzzle loading rifles and pistols so that no threat of a civil war could have happened ever again.

 

You would have watched John Wayne use a ramrod to shove a lead ball down his Hawken as opposed to spin cocking his “Modern” Winchester 92......

 

Of course in 1865 our politicians knew and understood our Constitution VERY WELL. Something like that would have been unthinkable! Johnny Reb went home to rebuild the south was Federally pardoned and bought Colt revolver pistols and Winchester rifles!!! Something to chew on before we get all riled up to throw away our Freedoms......

 

What about the future? So we ban semi auto “assault rifles” with plastic furniture? What about high capacity plastic pistols like Glocks? We are gonna stick to our old guns that make us feel good about ourselves and leave those evil black guns to our 1.4 trillion dollar per year government. Right? 

 

What does the 2nd Amendment look like in 100 years? 200 years? When we are still packing Cowboy guns? And the military small arms technology has long since abandoned ARs and Glocks? In favor of vastly superior fire arms technology? Well it becomes meaningless doesn’t it? 

 

No different than facing down King George with pitchforks right?

 

I leave you guys with this to think about....why do free men need ARs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cypress Sun]

33 minutes ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

 

While I like you have fantasies about the old west and days gone by? Your not grasping the big picture.

 

The 2nd Amendment stands here today to ensure our Republic endures against tyranny. I highly recommend reading the federalist papers and other works by our founding fathers to better understand why the Bill of Rights was written. What problems and concerns was it addressing? We as a nation of thirteen colonies had just overthrown by force of arms the British Empire. It was not lost on the founding fathers that we didn’t accomplish this with pitchforks and torches. Without the militia with private MODERN arms and training? The rebellion would not have lasted a day..... Without our militia we would have remained apart of the Common wealth as British subjects. So the founding fathers were very visionary in their wanting to preserve an armed populace against future threats of tyranny. We owe them such a debt of gratitude. So easily we could have ended up like France in which we over throw the Monarchy only to end up with a tyrant like Napoleon in control.

 

Lets talk about our fantasies of the old west....six guns and lever actions. The Henry was called “that damn Yankee rifle you loaded on Sunday and shot all week”. Arguably the Henry was the worlds first “assault rifle”.....I’d much rather MUCH rather, pick a fight with a guy with an AR while armed with a Henry. Than to pick a fight with a guy armed with a Henry while I was armed with a Springfield rifle musket....Boy Howdy!

 

So 640,000 soldiers died in our nations Civil War on both sides. Way more than any other war our nation has ever fought. Not counting civilians..... either. Open rebellion against the federal government in which over 1/10th of our nations population was snuffed out. Massive loss of life...... Rebels were mainly armed with rifle muskets, and only a select few Union units had their hands on repeating rifles such as the Henry and the Spencer.

 

What a perfect opportunity for gun control! The Feds could have stopped the sale of repeating rifles to civilians, many of which ended up in the hands of Native Americans to be later used against the US Army in conflicts such as the Battle of the Little Bighorn! It would have been an easy and easily justifiable act to limit civilians to muzzle loading rifles and pistols so that no threat of a civil war could have happened ever again.

 

You would have watched John Wayne use a ramrod to shove a lead ball down his Hawken as opposed to spin cocking his “Modern” Winchester 92......

 

Of course in 1865 our politicians knew and understood our Constitution VERY WELL. Something like that would have been unthinkable! Johnny Reb went home to rebuild the south was Federally pardoned and bought Colt revolver pistols and Winchester rifles!!! Something to chew on before we get all riled up to throw away our Freedoms......

 

What about the future? So we ban semi auto “assault rifles” with plastic furniture? What about high capacity plastic pistols like Glocks? We are gonna stick to our old guns that make us feel good about ourselves and leave those evil black guns to our 1.4 trillion dollar per year government. Right?

 

What does the 2nd Amendment look like in 100 years? 200 years? When we are still packing Cowboy guns? And the military small arms technology has long since abandoned ARs and Glocks? In favor of vastly superior fire arms technology? Well it becomes meaningless doesn’t it?

 

No different than facing down King George with pitchforks right?

 

I leave you guys with this to think about....why do free men need ARs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well stated Wapaloosie

 

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

And that probably answers the question.

 

But we know for sure that these school shooters aren't playing cowboys and Indians! But something else entirely....

[Wapaloosie73]

7 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

And that probably answers the question.

 

But we know for sure that these school shooters aren't playing cowboys and Indians! But something else entirely....

 

My father had a saying.....

 

Bad men do bad things when good men do nothing.

 

Also, the sports writer you were trying to recall was Jim Zumbo.

 

[Amarillo Rattler]

Florida experienced a major reduction in home burglaries immediately after the “Castle Doctrine” law was enacted.

The obvious reason for this was burglars  were on notice that a home occupant could legally kill the burglar without the duty to retreat or see a weapon.

 

A second reason for the reduction of home burglarys is the bad guy used rational thought in determine the risk benefit ratio. Burlary and die, or not.

 

This basic “common sense” principles have some application to the Florida school mass shooting situation in that none of the school occupants, student or faculty, were armed. A teacher died while shielding his students.

 

IF, the Florida faculty was armed, or IF LEOs were present, a lesser victim result would have resulted.

AND, IF qualified students were armed an even lesser victim would have resulted.

 

The requirement to be armed in some local jurisdictions should be the model for “common sense” gun control. Those locals have vastly different crime rates.

 

Compare violent crime rates in Chicago and Kennesaw, Georgia. That is “common sense”.

 

Just sayin’

Amarillo Rattler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sixgun Sheridan]

2 hours ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

The 2nd Amendment stands here today to ensure our Republic endures against tyranny.

 

While I agree with you 100% unfortunately you're preaching to the choir. The father of a child who was just killed yesterday may not be as easily convinced that a tyrannical government is the real enemy here. Therefore we have to be careful using this argument at a time when the general population is screaming for MORE government control, not less. We all know that liberty takes a beating during times of national crisis but there is a right way and a wrong way to address our concerns in times like this.

[Wapaloosie73]

12 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

While I agree with you 100% unfortunately you're preaching to the choir. The father of a child who was just killed yesterday may not be as easily convinced that a tyrannical government is the real enemy here. Therefore we have to be careful using this argument at a time when the general population is screaming for MORE government control, not less. We all know that liberty takes a beating during times of national crisis but there is a right way and a wrong way to address our concerns in times like this.

 

So what is the right way?

[Dantankerous]

4 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

So, what are the fantasies of those who own AR 15-type rifles?

 

What? That is quite the presumption that people who own a particular kind of firearm have fantasies about them or using them.

 

Please clarify.

 

 

[Pat Riot]

All of my guns sit quietly wherever I stow them. They are inanimate objects.

[Dantankerous]

I was in a school shooting. 9th grade. So I know firsthand what that does to a person. And I know how a person will carry that experience forward with them their entire life. I was not not shot at personally, although I was on a target list, but friends were. Friends were shot. Teachers were shot. And a very brave and good man, the Principal, was killed. I damn sure don't need anti-gun liberal types telling me how to think and feel about school shootings and violence after personally being in the exact scenario that unfolded in Florida yesterday.

 

And no, more gun control IS NOT the answer to this problem.

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

11 hours ago, Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 said:

In 1976, a bomber set off his weapon in the Suffolk County Courthouse in Boston, killing two and injuring others.  Before this, every courthouse in the state was wide open; just walk in.  No searches, no security, no scanners.  Almost overnight, the metal detectors, teams of police and entrance restrictions appeared.  Was it clumsy?  For awhile, but over time it has become streamlined and manageable.  Every day, thousands of people flow in and out of the courthouses.  To my knowledge, there has not been another violent armed episode.

 

If we can do this in courthouses, why can't we do it in schools?  I can't believe that there is less public will to protect children than there is to protect judges and lawyers.  It is inexcusable to continue to fail to protect our schools in the face of a clear, repeating, danger.

 

Armed security beats slaughter, plain and simple. 

 

LL

Money. There is usually one courthouse in a county but there may be dozens of schools, many with tightly stretched budgets. And even after these tragedies you still have some liberal school admin types and politicians who think armed guards are not the answer or that it could never happen in their quiet little town.

But could we do it? Yeah, probably.

Will we? Time will tell. I’m skeptical.

[Wapaloosie73]

36 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

I was in a school shooting. 9th grade. So I know firsthand what that does to a person. And I know how a person will carry that experience forward with them their entire life. I was not not shot at personally, although I was on a target list, but friends were. Friends were shot. Teachers were shot. And a very brave and good man, the Principal, was killed. I damn sure don't need anti-gun liberal types telling me how to think and feel about school shootings and violence after personally being in the exact scenario that unfolded in Florida yesterday.

 

And no, more gun control IS NOT the answer to this problem.

 

 

Im very sorry for what happened to you.

 

If the faculty had been trained with pistols and carried concealed do you think it would have made a difference? Your opinion obviously carries more weight. Thanks.

[Rye Miles #13621]

5 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

There are many fantasies associated with the ownership and use of firearms. We at SASS/CAS are fully aware of this; our shooting game is almost pure fantasy.

 

I'm an atavistic troglodyte myself in regard to guns. I own lots of them. I've never bought a gun with a synthetic stock, because to me, a rifle or shotgun has a wooden stock. This is obviously a purely personal emotional issue with regard to firearms. So also, I own lots of handguns. All of them are revolvers, except for a single Ruger Mark II .22. Obviously, again, this is a manifestation of a subjective thing personal to me. I simply have no interest in semi-automatic pistols. My carry gun is Ruger LCR (which, I admit, does have polymer parts!).

 

My firearms fantasies involve cowboys, the Old West, and old hunting expeditions in the wildlands, of the kind that, for example, Elmer Keith used to guide as a young man.

 

So, what are the fantasies of those who own AR 15-type rifles?

No fantasy for me, I just like the weapon! I have a S&W M&P AR 15 with iron sights and I shoot it occasionally. Do you have to have a fantasy for each gun you own? I don't get what you're saying.

 

[Dantankerous]

2 hours ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

 

Im very sorry for what happened to you.

 

If the faculty had been trained with pistols and carried concealed do you think it would have made a difference? Your opinion obviously carries more weight. Thanks.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

Back then (1985) no one really had the mindset to deal with a school shooting in progress. I knew the teachers well and MAYBE two or three could have maintained the discipline and fortitude necessary to engage the 14 year old student who came to school that day armed with his dad's handgun and M1A.  Certainly there had been other school shootings before but few and far between and IIRC nothing with mass casualties until Littleton, Colorado Columbine High in 1999. THAT got people's attention nationally. Combine that with the 24 hours news and no one could miss the horror of a school shooting.

 

There WAS one man who acted decisively that day. He was not armed as I image no one anywhere was armed in schools at the time. That was the Principal. The Principal was a Marine, by God and we all agree he saved a lot of lives through his last actions and sacrifice. He peacefully yet firmly confronted the student. The student shot him killing him instantly. Believe me, all hell broke loose at that point. Everyone who was there that day, students, teachers and later police and investigators all concur that the Principal's action derailed the shooter's original mission of going after students. The shooter fled the school at that point but not before shooting several more people on his way down the hallway looking for an exit. He never made the lunchroom where he could have done massive damage. None of the other victims died, amazingly enough.

 

I remember the Principal well enough to say confidently that even if he had been armed, he would have rather talked the kid out of the gun. A couple other teachers, maybe not, but I will not hazard a guess as to their mindset that day on their behalf. Would an armed staff member or three served as a deterrent to that student evening coming to school armed with mayhem on his mind? I believe with 100% certainty that in this case it would have.

 

In today's world, protecting our schools need to involve some kind of a trained armed security presence in those schools. I firmly believe that deterrent would be enough to stop most of these school shootings. Notice I say most and not all. We live in a world that has evil people who do not care about the consequences of their actions nor care for the value of human life. Some will not be stopped. Most can be. The only way to meet that force of evil is with an equal force of good and righteousness protectors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Clay Mosby]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Money. There is usually one courthouse in a county but there may be dozens of schools, many with tightly stretched budgets. And even after these tragedies you still have some liberal school admin types and politicians who think armed guards are not the answer or that it could never happen in their quiet little town.

But could we do it? Yeah, probably.

Will we? Time will tell. I’m skeptical.

And yet they always find the money to fund programs to benefit/protect illegals. Amazing, they are more important to them then our kids!

 

[Wapaloosie73]

18 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

Back then (1985) no one really had the mindset to deal with a school shooting in progress. I knew the teachers well and MAYBE two or three could have maintained the discipline and fortitude necessary to engage the 14 year old student who came to school that day armed with his dad's handgun and M1A.  Certainly there had been other school shootings before but few and far between and IIRC nothing with mass casualties until Littleton, Colorado Columbine High in 1999. THAT got people's attention nationally. Combine that with the 24 hours news and no one could miss the horror of a school shooting.

 

There WAS one man who acted decisively that day. He was not armed as I imaging no one anywhere was in schools at the time. That was the Principal. The Principal was a Marine, by God and we all agree he saved a lot of lives through his last actions and sacrifice. He peacefully yet firmly confronted the student. The student shot him killing him instantly. Believe me, all hell broke loose at that point. Everyone who was there that day, students, teachers and later police and investigators all concur that the Principal's action derailed the shooter's original mission of going after students. The shooter fled the school at that point but not before shooting several more people on his way down the hallway looking for an exit. He never made the lunchroom where he could have done massive damage. None of the other victims died, amazingly enough.

 

I remember the Principal well enough to say confidently that even if he had been armed, he would have rather talked the kid out of the gun. A couple other teachers, maybe not, but I will not hazard a guess as to their mindset that day on their behalf. Would an armed staff member or three served as a deterrent to that student evening coming to school armed with mayhem on his mind? I believe with 100% certainty that in that case it would have.

 

In today's world, protecting our schools need to involve some kind of a trained armed security presence in those schools. I firmly believe that deterrent would be enough to stop most of these school shootings. Notice I say most and not all. We live in a world that has evil people who do not care about the consequences of their actions nor care for the value of human life. Some will not be stopped. Most can be. The only way to meet that force of evil is with an equal force of good and righteousness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you. And I couldn’t agree more. Trucks, bombs, snipers..... no structure can be 100 percent safe. But we can do better....

 

[Wapaloosie73]

[Utah Bob #35998]

29 minutes ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

Well.... a bit misleading. Not all citizens are required to have guns. Just the military reservists.

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

3 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

 

What? That is quite the presumption that people who own a particular kind of firearm have fantasies about them or using them.

 

Please clarify.

 

 

 

Just asking. Probably because I know a lot of people who dress up like cowboys and shoot cowboy guns. And not only that-- they get the cowboy guns out when they watch Westerns (at least I have.....). You might also read AR advertisements in your favorite gun mag to see if there is any  fantasy element at work. And if you find that there is, why? To increase sales, of course. That's what ads are for.

 

And what is involved in the minds of one of these school shooters? Just like to shoot guns?

 

There are lots and lots of us who have a lot more guns than we need to resist tyrannical government, myself included. Of course, I know there is no fantasy element in resisting tyrannical government, or post-apocalyptic banditos. That's a serious business.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I enjoy guns for the history of some, the inventive engineering and sheer artistry of others. I have used them as a soldier and as a police officer. I don’t really fantasize about them at all.

[Wapaloosie73]

31 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Well.... a bit misleading. Not all citizens are required to have guns. Just the military reservists.

 

Check me if I’m wrong but don’t all male citizens have one year of compulsory service in active duty? And then a lifetime of being a reservist?

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

One of the problematic things about discussions of controversial subjects is that often people think that a proposition is directed to themselves personally. But this is not so.

 

I have spoken to people and read the "literature" of people who exhibit a very high degree of fantasy with respect to the use of military-style (and yes, I know what is and what isn't a military weapon) guns in their various  apocalyptic fantasies. Have you ever read or listened to these scenarios about roving bands of marauders when the "SHTF"?

 

And clearly these school shooters are acting out some kind of fantastic delusions. And these fantastic delusions do not lead them to employ lever-action rifles. So it's a legitimate question in my opinion. There is no analogy to ideology-driven terrorists shooting; these are very different.

 

But there is a huge public relations and political problem brewing out there. I think a breaking point is approaching.