17 dead in another school shooting

[McCandless]

The FBI said it failed to act on a tip warning of the suspected Florida school shooter's potential for violence

[Smoken D]

Having many professional dealings in L.E. with the F.B.I. and Secret Service, I ended up walking away every time shaking my head. I do not hold either with high esteem. When called before my superiors then explaining the situation, they also shook their heads and told me to carry on. I'll just leave it at that.

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

56 minutes ago, McCandless said:

The FBI said it failed to act on a tip warning of the suspected Florida school shooter's potential for violence

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

1 hour ago, Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274 said:

 

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-on-the-shooting-in-parkland-florida

 

GG ~ 

[Sedalia Dave]

Well they don't have to worry about be held liable in the courts.

 

 

June 27 2005 the SCOTUS ruled that  " Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone"

[Subdeacon Joe]

3 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

That is incorrect. There are rules and regulations governing all of the bill of rights. There are libel laws and fairness doctrine for the press. Freedom of speech isn’t all encompassing. You must have permits to assemble and are subject to noise and other laws. And the list goes on. I don’t agree with the current attempts at gun control, but let’s not assume only the second amendment is being regulated. 

 

 

Yes and no.  Look at Schenck:

Quote

“The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force.” Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919)

 

 

It does not limit freedom of speech at all, as is the common claim about it. It says that you can't use your freedom of speech to cause panic - and possibly harm to others - and then claim it is your right to cause that harm.  If we translate Schenck to apply to the 2^nd, it would read something like “The most stringent protection of the rights to keep and bear arms would not protect a man in wantonly opening fire in a public place and causing death, injury, and panic.  It does not even protect a man who brandishes a firearm in public with the intent of causing fear and panic among the people.”  

Freedom of assembly.  Are you saying that you can't invite 1 or 100 friends to a public park?  The permits required by municipalities are so that city services can be arranged (police blocking streets and rerouting traffic, for example) so your assembly is not seriously infringing on the rights of others or causing sanitation problems (making sure you have porta potties and trash bins available) .  Even that, since the Occupy movement of a few years ago is shaky since few, if any, of those gatherings bothered with permits.  Some cities were even providing free electrical power, water, and various sanitation services for free (while at the same time requiring permits and fees for pro-gun rallies).

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

14 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Do you really think that the Ruger Mini-14 should have "never entered civilian ownership?"  

 

No, nor did I say so or anything like it. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

Here's a quiz:

 

Question #1.  Do very large numbers of people perceive AR-type rifles differently than other types of rifles?

 If your answer is no, put down your pencil. If your answer is yes, proceed to question #2.

 

Question #2.  Why?

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

No, nor did I say so or anything like it.

 

Same round as the AR-15.  Same rate of fire.  Can take 30 round magazines.  You can change out the stock to a "military style " one that makes it, at first glance,  look like amateur AR.   

 

No functional difference between the two.  As the photo I posted shows, that flash hider makes it an assault rifle in the eyes of the State of California, exactly the same as an AR.

[Pat Riot]

Hello Wall...Wall? I said “Hello”....WALL!...Wall?  HELLO...

 

 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

6 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

No, nor did I say so or anything like it. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

Here's a quiz:

 

Question #1.  Do very large numbers of people perceive AR-type rifles differently than other types of rifles?

 If your answer is no, put down your pencil. If your answer is yes, proceed to question #2.

 

Question #2.  Why?

To question #2, (for some reason I can't get the article to appear here). The people perceive the ARs differently because in the late 80s, an article in the NYT started using using the AR as meaning "Assault Rifle", rather then Armalite Rifle.  By using just the word "assault", it stigmatized the firearm as being evil. Other reporters, writers, quickly picked up on this new term, and the word "assault". Assault Rifle is a term used by the military, but on Fully Automatic capable firearms only. By turning this onto civilian, semi-auto also, it made the those unaware as a potential fully auto dangerous firearms. Numerous times when an AR15, semi-auto is used, or consficated, reporters have just written or said an Auto assault rifle was used.

Talk, write enough, and you eventually put fear into people on the ARs. MT

Call up "were the term assault rifle came from" you should get a better answer and complete.  Remember the days of the "Evil Saturday Night Specials"? Get them off the street and crime would drop in Chicago, (actually written in 2 of Chicagos Newspapers).

As a CAS, ask yourself what if, shootings are committed by a SA. Would the press come out and turn it into a evil firearm used since its inception as a choice of killings from the Old West, to TV and movie westerns. Or what if it had been a high capacity Glock, 1911, etc. eventually they will become the "Evil firearms: and go the way of the Saturday Night Specials. Think maybe? I ask.

[Dantankerous]

Today's media would invent the full auto high capacity Colt SAAA.. the Single Action Assault Auto. 

 

Let's just hope they never see Deuce run a lever gun or there will be calls for banning the full auto version of the Winchester Assault Auto and showing 1.5 second video clips of what must be a bump fire trigger thingie on an unregistered cowboy street sweeper.

 

 

[Big Rock, SASS #44055]

3 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

Today's media would invent the full auto high capacity Colt SAAA.. the Single Action Assault Auto. 

 

Let's just hope they never see Deuce run a lever gun or there will be calls for banning the full auto version of the Winchester Assault Auto and showing 1.5 second video clips of what must be a bump fire trigger thingie on an unregistered cowboy street sweeper.

 

 

They are ready do. The left, want to ban ALL firearms. No one but the government officials and their extended agencies will be the only Legal “owners “ of firearms period. They have stated it may times. That is their ultimate goal 

 

Every time firearm owners give a little, it advances the lefts agenda 

 

those who who give up Liberty for security will neither have Liberty nor security 

[Dantankerous]

2 minutes ago, Big Rock, SASS #44055 said:

...those who who give up Liberty for security will neither have Liberty nor security...

 

I have used this phrase many times over the past years. You would be amazed at the blank looks I get in return, especially from today's millennials when asked to even contemplate what this means. And I get a lot of retorts asking me, "What? You don't trust the government?"

 

50 years from now this country is not going to be the same because people are going to let it turn into a Socialism or communism or something even worse. And they will have no idea what they've done.

 

 

[Big Rock, SASS #44055]

3 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

50 years from now this country is not going to be the same because people are going to let it turn into a Socialism or communism or something even worse. And they will have no idea what they've done.

 

 

 

I am afraid it will be less time than that. 

[Dantankerous]

I have hope for a few states to actually fight the federal government in terms of following the US Constitution as written and intended. 

 

I see blue states crumbling into socialisms. Staunch red states will have to ban together to defend freedom. 

 

Things will get ugly. 

 

 I hope to be living in Texas soon.

 

Now we're really off topic...

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Dantankerous said:

I have hope for a few states to actually fight the federal government in terms of following the US Constitution as written and intended. 

 

I see blue states crumbling into socialisms. Staunch red states will have to ban together to defend freedom. 

 

Things will get ugly. 

 

 I hope to be living in Texas soon.

 

Now we're really off topic...

 

 

 

Well if you make it to North East Texas look me up. Would love to shoot with you.

[Oklahomabound]

19 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

It has been my personal experience on 2 different occasions reporting anything to the FBI is a joke and a waste of time. Perhaps they need to be taken to task even more than they have been of late.

I believe the FBI's command chain that the info flowed through needs to be thoroughly investigated quickly-and then each person involved or should have been involved should be summarily dismissed from service with prejudice (means no retirement)...  

...as you can see, I'm a bit beyond "taken to task"

...it is time to clean house in all federal agencies that fail to act on the public's (read our) behalf...

 

...and it is high time that our school's are locked down with retired military armed at the school to protect our kids...

[Pat Riot]

2 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

50 years from now this country is not going to be the same because people are going to let it turn into a Socialism or communism or something even worse. And they will have no idea what they've done.

 

 

Especially when we have people in our midst that think cosmetics should be a deciding factor in whether of they believe you should own a gun. When I say “in our midst” I am talking about within our pro gun community, within our own shooting community, within our own clubs, even.

 

I am sick to death of people tearing us apart from within because they are too uppity, too smarmy, too pig headed and because they drew a line in the sand a long time ago regarding something and they are not about “look bad” by stepping away from the line.

It kind of reminds me of those snotty buttheads at a Skeet range that look down their noses at the Mossberg 500 that you showed up with. Or the Cowboy Shooter that gets visibly appalled at the sight of a Winchester 94 on the line. Or the Walter PPK collector that thinks “all Glocks should be banned including the S&W ones.”

 

Why do you think California is in the condition it’s in? Because a group of “someones” decides to look the other way because “they got their’s”, because “only the gangbangers would use those and we need to stop them”, or because “I got mine! Screw everyone else!”

 

My name’s Pat Riot and I am sick of having to support this message amongst my so-called peers.

 

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

4 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Especially when we have people in our midst that think cosmetics should be a deciding factor in whether of they believe you should own a gun. When I say “in our midst” I am talking about within our pro gun community, within our own shooting community, within our own clubs, even.

 

I am sick to death of people tearing us apart from within because they are too uppity, too smarmy, too pig headed and because they drew a line in the sand a long time ago regarding something and they are not about “look bad” by stepping away from the line.

It kind of reminds me of those snotty buttheads at a Skeet range that look down their noses at the Mossberg 500 that you showed up with. Or the Cowboy Shooter that gets visibly appalled at the sight of a Winchester 94 on the line. Or the Walter PPK collector that thinks “all Glocks should be banned including the S&W ones.”

 

Why do you think California is in the condition it’s in? Because a group of “someones” decides to look the other way because “they got their’s”, because “only the gangbangers would use those and we need to stop them”, or because “I got mine! Screw everyone else!”

 

My name’s Pat Riot and I am sick of having to support this message amongst my so-called peers.

 

Your post should be dipped in bronze and prominently displayed.

+100

[Dantankerous]

31 minutes ago, Oklahomabound said:

I believe the FBI's command chain that the info flowed through needs to be thoroughly investigated quickly-and then each person involved or should have been involved should be summarily dismissed from service with prejudice (means no retirement)...  

...as you can see, I'm a bit beyond "taken to task"

...it is time to clean house in all federal agencies that fail to act on the public's (read our) behalf...

 

...and it is high time that our school's are locked down with retired military armed at the school to protect our kids...

 

Agree.

 

And here's how we need to pay for it. Divert some money from athletics to school security. Problem solved, no taxes need be raised. Athletics should be secondary to academics and security of our kids should be priority above all.

 

 

[Wapaloosie73]

39 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Especially when we have people in our midst that think cosmetics should be a deciding factor in whether of they believe you should own a gun. When I say “in our midst” I am talking about within our pro gun community, within our own shooting community, within our own clubs, even.

 

I am sick to death of people tearing us apart from within because they are too uppity, too smarmy, too pig headed and because they drew a line in the sand a long time ago regarding something and they are not about “look bad” by stepping away from the line.

It kind of reminds me of those snotty buttheads at a Skeet range that look down their noses at the Mossberg 500 that you showed up with. Or the Cowboy Shooter that gets visibly appalled at the sight of a Winchester 94 on the line. Or the Walter PPK collector that thinks “all Glocks should be banned including the S&W ones.”

 

Why do you think California is in the condition it’s in? Because a group of “someones” decides to look the other way because “they got their’s”, because “only the gangbangers would use those and we need to stop them”, or because “I got mine! Screw everyone else!”

 

My name’s Pat Riot and I am sick of having to support this message amongst my so-called peers.

 

 

Your message has been spoken before......by a NAZI concentration camp survivor.

 

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

 

[Oklahomabound]

...and so I write each of my Congresspersons and let them know what I think...

 

...by the way: I am also for 3-2 year terms max for each Congressperson (they were never intended to be permanent employees)

...and given the stated term limits, then we do not need for any Congressperson to receive any retirement benefit at all; to include past, present, or future...

...and that all federal employees should have to total compensation limited to not greater than the lower middle income value; ie., $75,000.

...and that all federal employees shall pay social security and medicare just like the rest of us...

...and that Congressperson's shall have the same health benefits/plan/program as the rest of us without stipend, supplement, or exception...

 

...I don't want much; just return some integrity to it all...

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

11 hours ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

To question #2, (for some reason I can't get the article to appear here). The people perceive the ARs differently because in the late 80s, an article in the NYT started using using the AR as meaning "Assault Rifle", rather then Armalite Rifle.  By using just the word "assault", it stigmatized the firearm as being evil. Other reporters, writers, quickly picked up on this new term, and the word "assault". Assault Rifle is a term used by the military, but on Fully Automatic capable firearms only. By turning this onto civilian, semi-auto also, it made the those unaware as a potential fully auto dangerous firearms. Numerous times when an AR15, semi-auto is used, or consficated, reporters have just written or said an Auto assault rifle was used.

Talk, write enough, and you eventually put fear into people on the ARs. MT

Call up "were the term assault rifle came from" you should get a better answer and complete.  Remember the days of the "Evil Saturday Night Specials"? Get them off the street and crime would drop in Chicago, (actually written in 2 of Chicagos Newspapers).

As a CAS, ask yourself what if, shootings are committed by a SA. Would the press come out and turn it into a evil firearm used since its inception as a choice of killings from the Old West, to TV and movie westerns. Or what if it had been a high capacity Glock, 1911, etc. eventually they will become the "Evil firearms: and go the way of the Saturday Night Specials. Think maybe? I ask.

Absolutely right. We can compromise on tactics and strategies, but we don’t compromise on principles. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

7 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Especially when we have people in our midst that think cosmetics should be a deciding factor in whether of they believe you should own a gun. When I say “in our midst” I am talking about within our pro gun community, within our own shooting community, within our own clubs, even.

 

I am sick to death of people tearing us apart from within because they are too uppity, too smarmy, too pig headed and because they drew a line in the sand a long time ago regarding something and they are not about “look bad” by stepping away from the line.

It kind of reminds me of those snotty buttheads at a Skeet range that look down their noses at the Mossberg 500 that you showed up with. Or the Cowboy Shooter that gets visibly appalled at the sight of a Winchester 94 on the line. Or the Walter PPK collector that thinks “all Glocks should be banned including the S&W ones.”

 

Why do you think California is in the condition it’s in? Because a group of “someones” decides to look the other way because “they got their’s”, because “only the gangbangers would use those and we need to stop them”, or because “I got mine! Screw everyone else!”

 

My name’s Pat Riot and I am sick of having to support this message amongst my so-called peers.

 

 

 

[Henry T Harrison]

10 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

sI have hope for a few states to actually fight the federal government in terms of following the US Constitution as written and intended. 

 

I see blue states crumbling into socialisms. Staunch red states will have to ban together to defend freedom. 

 

Things will get ugly. 

 

 I hope to be living in Texas soon.

 

Now we're really off topic...

 

 

Texas is becoming bluer every day 

[J-BAR #18287]

Sometimes it helps to read a well written response to the flood of emotional calls for more gun control legislation.  Michael Z. Williamson is an author with a strong military background, and composes refreshing blogs aimed at anti-gun efforts. Don’t worry Moderators, this is not political.  There is a link in the text to another of his articles, which is also worth the time, IMO.  Here’s hoping you all agree:

 

 

http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/blog/

 

 

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Looks like FOX News is calling for Mental Health reform, not Gun control. I applaud that. 

FBI is also taking a hit for not checking out reports about shooter in Florida. 

[J-BAR #18287]

News Anchor Eric Shawn on this evening's Fox News report sounded pretty sympathetic to a Florida politician who is promoting "common sense" gun laws.  Mr. Shawn stated, among other comments, that the Second Amendment was written when guns the army had were muskets (3:40 into the interview with state senator Gary Farmer).  I guess they all find a way to inject their personal feelings, don't they, even on Fox News:

 

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5735804204001/

 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

10 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

News Anchor Eric Shawn on this evening's Fox News report sounded pretty sympathetic to a Florida politician who is promoting "common sense" gun laws.  Mr. Shawn stated, among other comments, that the Second Amendment was written when guns the army had were muskets (3:40 into the interview with state senator Gary Farmer).  I guess they all find a way to inject their personal feelings, don't they, even on Fox News:

 

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5735804204001/

 

 

I have to laugh any time a politician uses the term “Common Sense”.

[J-BAR #18287]

1 minute ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I have to laugh any time a politician uses the term “Common Sense”.

 

The blog I linked to in a previous post makes the point that if none of the gun laws presently on the books are "common sense," then they should be repealed.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I spent 35 years as a LEO.  Over half that time was in Criminal Investigations.  I've got lots of experience dealing with the FBI.  They have some good people working for them but the organization and bureaucracy has their hands tied.  The U.S. Attorney's office and Washington have to approve everything BEFORE they can make a move.  As a whole, they are the most inept Law Enforcement organization I've ever dealt with.  

 

[Volga Vigilante]

I have  6th and 8th grade kids, and lots of school aged family, and it breaks my heart hearing about the senseless loss of life.

 

It is not a gun problem.  I'm not sure if you would call it a "leadership" or "moral guidance" problem.  I feel we have lost/changed our moral compass.  Less time is spent with family.  Both parents, if there are 2 parents in the house, work.  Mostly because we want the best for our kids.  I know in our house it can be hard to sit down for supper with the four of us, we have sports, work, and other activities.  Kids learn more by "caught than taught" in my mind.  If the X-Box, or Play Station is where all their time is spent, what are they learning?   I understand that "Church" is not the right answer for everyone, but there is guidance there also.  It seems that there is less and less respect, not just in how we treat people everyday, but less respect for human life.

 

South Dakota has a Sentinel Law, which allows schools to have some staff take firearms training and then have a firearm at school with them.  At this time only a couple of schools have done this.  There are several consolidated schools where the buildings are truly in the middle of no where.   I have a huge amount of respect for law enforcement, but when seconds count, they could be 15 -20 plus miles away.

 

I worry for my kids and what the future holds for them,  I hope and Pray that they stay safe and healthy, grow into adults who still have the rights given to them by the Founding Fathers.  

 

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts,

Volga Vigilante

[Utah Bob #35998]

I think we have reached a tipping point. I believe that with the disinformation and ignorance about firearms flooding the country now via the news media, the full on assault on the 2nd amendment has begun. The focus continues to be on the wrong thing because it appears to be a solution. But the root cause, the increasing mindless violence and evil in our society continues to be ignored. I think there is a very good possibility that politicians will buckle under the pressure and firearms like the AR15 will be banned. That will be the first step. More will follow. 

We’re like the Olympic ski jumper standing at the top of the hill just about to start down. Eventually we’ll be at the bottom. But we won’t have a chance at victory. 

We’ll be like the other “civilized” countries whose populations are under control of their governments.  It will be a new world. And not one that I care to contemplate. I’m glad I’m not a young man and hopefully will depart this vale of tears before I see the inevitable result of the erosion of our freedoms.

I guess that’s all I have to say. I sincerely hope I’m wrong. 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

15 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I think we have reached a tipping point. I believe that with the disinformation and ignorance about firearms flooding the country now via the news media, the full on assault on the 2nd amendment has begun. The focus continues to be on the wrong thing because it appears to be a solution. But the root cause, the increasing mindless violence and evil in our society continues to be ignored. I think there is a very good possibility that politicians will buckle under the pressure and firearms like the AR15 will be banned. That will be the first step. More will follow. 

We’re like the Olympic ski jumper standing at the top of the hill just about to start down. Eventually we’ll be at the bottom. But we won’t have a chance at victory. 

We’ll be like the other “civilized” countries whose populations are under control of their governments.  It will be a new world. And not one that I care to contemplate. I’m glad I’m not a young man and hopefully will depart this vale of tears before I see the inevitable result of the erosion of our freedoms.

I guess that’s all I have to say. I sincerely hope I’m wrong. 

In many country's it took only a decade or 2, here its happening, but so slowly many are unaware. But eventually we will be under complete control and reliance of the government for our daily existence.

I believe the tipping point is in a very fragile  state, only we the people will be responsible for  which way it tips and the future. Once the balance is gone, its gone forever and there will be no recovery.

Very well said Utah.  MT

Add: In this case, its the Government that is to blame, warning were there, warnings were telegraphed. Yet the Government, FBI, failed us. When very well, lives may have been saved, and this discussion would not be here.

[Clay Mosby]

Utah Bob, you have articulated what I've been thinking for some time. I don't want to live in the same type of society/world the millennial's seem to want. I'm sick and tired of being blamed for damn near everything simply because I'm a white, God fearing conservative.  I'm very saddened by the fact that my youngest son and his wife are devout followers of Saunders, and the fact that that's what they're teaching our grand-kids.

I'm dismayed that there is never enough money to more thoroughly identify, monitor and treat mental and anti-social illness, but billions are demanded to be spent on illegals.

I'm tired of hearing that conservatives are too stupid to host or even understand late night "comedy", that we are so stupid that military is about the only option open for us.

 

And the scariest, saddest thing of all? In maybe 10 years or so, the anti-everything that is not in lock step with their ideals idiots will be the ones in charge of things. I sometimes find myself thinking, "Well America, it was a good run while it lasted. and the world will be a poorer place when you're gone."

 

Okay, enough of that for now.