17 dead in another school shooting

[Utah Bob #35998]

18 minutes ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

 

Check me if I’m wrong but don’t all male citizens have one year of compulsory service in active duty? And then a lifetime of being a reservist?

They do have compulsory service. About 30% of citizens own guns.

http://factmyth.com/factoids/switzerland-requires-citizens-to-own-guns/

[Wapaloosie73]

17 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

One of the problematic things about discussions of controversial subjects is that often people think that a proposition is directed to themselves personally. But this is not so.

 

I have spoken to people and read the "literature" of people who exhibit a very high degree of fantasy with respect to the use of military-style (and yes, I know what is and what isn't a military weapon) guns in their various  apocalyptic fantasies. Have you ever read or listened to these scenarios about roving bands of marauders when the "SHTF"?

 

And clearly these school shooters are acting out some kind of fantastic delusions. And these fantastic delusions do not lead them to employ lever-action rifles. So it's a legitimate question in my opinion. There is no analogy to ideology-driven terrorists shooting; these are very different.

 

But there is a huge public relations and political problem brewing out there. I think a breaking point is approaching.

 

But  it is directed at all AR or other “assault rifle” owners.....if the goal is to ban said rifles and confiscate them?

 

Google “ghost gunner”, I also posted a thread in this sub forum. I think the debate IS settled. Gun control has lost in reality. People can now create firearms in their own homes with a 110v outlet.

 

And I think your talking about “preppers” who own assault rifles? I do not think most of these violent shooters fit that mold. As far as people who own “assault rifles”? We are diverse as people who own sports cars. Hunters, 3 gunners, Veterans, Hobbyist, Home defense, Survivalists, etc...... Its not one stereotype. I personally don’t like AR’s much. I don’t like the direct impingement gas system nor the .223. Of course AR’s now come in gobs of different cartridges, and you can buy piston systems for them. Plus the parts are cheap and everywhere. It’s the 350 Chevy motor of the gun world.

 

 

 

 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

22 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

One of the problematic things about discussions of controversial subjects is that often people think that a proposition is directed to themselves personally. But this is not so.

 

I have spoken to people and read the "literature" of people who exhibit a very high degree of fantasy with respect to the use of military-style (and yes, I know what is and what isn't a military weapon) guns in their various  apocalyptic fantasies. Have you ever read or listened to these scenarios about roving bands of marauders when the "SHTF"?

 

And clearly these school shooters are acting out some kind of fantastic delusions. And these fantastic delusions do not lead them to employ lever-action rifles. So it's a legitimate question in my opinion. There is no analogy to ideology-driven terrorists shooting; these are very different.

 

But there is a huge public relations and political problem brewing out there. I think a breaking point is approaching.

“So, what are the fantasies of those who own AR 15-type rifles?”

You asked and I am an AR 15 owner, so I answered.

Perhaps you meant, “What are the fantasies of these AR 15 owners who commit mass murders?”

[Sixgun Sheridan]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with owning a particular firearm out of playful fantasy, as long as one has the mind and maturity to separate it from reality. We all like cowboy guns because they take us back to the Old West. My 1920's Colt Pocket Hammerless takes me back to the gangster era. My M1 Garand takes me back to the beaches at Normandy. And yes I have an A1-type AR-15 that brings to mind rice paddies and the whomp-whomp-whomp of helicopter blades whenever I handle it. Is there anything wrong with that? If there is then I guess most of us should not be owning guns in the first place unless you're a hunter or serious target shooter. I am neither... I simply like to collect guns for their historical or cultural significance.

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

54 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

But there is a huge public relations and political problem brewing out there. I think a breaking point is approaching.

 

And a cold rain will fall.  I predict that the AR15 will be the "sacrificial lamb," and that a great many pro-gun folks will either openly, or silently, acquiesce. And so it will begin....  Make no mistake, we have a real fight on our hands.

[grenadier]

4 hours ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

Common misconception, the Swiss do not require anyone to own nor have in their homes a firearm. Even military are no longer required to keep their firearms in their home. Firearm ownership in Switzerland is strong but it is not what it was 50 years ago. I do not believe I have been inside of a home in Switzerland that did not have at least one firearm.

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

I suppose you could lay it to my own fantasy: that these guns had never entered civilian ownership. But they did, and  that cat was out of the bag decades ago.

 

There are lots of solid gun owners who don't like ARs at all, and I suppose it isn't totally surprising that a cowboy shooting group would have at least a few. I know a few outside the game who feel the same way (a few is to say the least). These are a lightning rod and we spend all our time on talking about them under very lousy circumstances.

 

There is a reason for this that goes well beyond the simple fact that they are guns. Maybe it's because we have been at war for 50 years or so and it is a reaction. But I think it simply boils down to the fact that they are inherently intimidating, and that with high-capacity magazines they are used to kill schoolchildren en masse, and other gathered groups, more than any other weapon.

 

I guess I've more than said my piece. I bear animus to no one here. I am very concerned about what happens when the dam breaks, a point we are getting very close to. A couple more will do it, I think.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

5 hours ago, Grizzly Adams 3674 said:

  I predict that the AR15 will be the "sacrificial lamb," and that a great many pro-gun folks will either openly, or silently, acquiesce. And so it will begin....  Make no mistake, we have a real fight on our hands.

If anyone really believes it will stop when all "Assault rifles are confiscated.

 That all criminals will register their firearms and turn their Assault guns in, are living in a fantasy world.

As to how many firearms or amount of ammunition a person has or owns, doesn't mean that that person is or has evil thoughts.

As to firearm owners, hunters, target shooters, or even CAS, starts to divide and support the notion that certain firearms are good or evil, well, those that want to take away our guns, are winning. It maybe Assault guns today, but tomorrow it will be the CAS firearms.

I would like to knowf, what is it about the ARs that make them evil?  Is it because they are semi-auto, or have magazines?   Is it because they look like a military firearm? If so to any, what firearm pistol or rifle that you own, or someone you know owns is Semi-Auto, is magazine fed, or looks like a military firearm, pistol, revolvers, and long guns that was at one time a standard issued. MT

[Sedalia Dave]

Red Gauntlet,

 

Please don't blame the tool. The church shooter in Texas was stopped by a good guy armed with a so called assault rifle. In this case it was an AK-47 that saved the lives of his next victims. Tools are just that, tools and they can be used for good or they can be used for evil. Even the bible has been used as a tool to justify evil for centuries. Does that make all bibles evil or just the versions used to perpetrate evil? Or is the real problem the evil that resides in some people souls?

 

Did you ever consider the fact that they are used so often is a by product of the fact that the news media keeps saying how deadly they are over and over and over.  Maybe the hype is why those bent on committing harm chose it over other firearms.  Why wouldn't a person bent on evil choose one? After all everyone knows they are the most lethal firearm ever made and were designed specifically to kill people.. Just ask a reporter and he/she will spend days touting how deadly the AR-15 as compared to any other firearm.

Maybe it is because over 98% of all semi-automatic rifles currently manufactured are variant of a military rifle. Cabelas has 133 center fire rifles listed on their website for sale. Only 2 did not resemble any countries military semi-automatic rifle.

 

While it is true that all firearms are deadly the .223 is no more lethal than any other centerfire rifle round. Every firearm cartridge ever made was designed to maximize its lethality.

The only thing that separates the AR-15 platform from any other semi-automatic rifle is that is was designed to maximize interchangeability. I could fabricate 30 round mags for my 50 year old Remington 742 chambered in .243 and shoot just as many rounds just as fast as I could with an AR.

 

If suddenly all semi-auto rifles were to vanish tomorrow the next school shooting would likely be done with a pump action or lever action rifle. A bump stock is nothing new. The concept is at least couple of decades old and can be easily done without the need to purchase a special stock. All you need is some stout string and a little ingenuity.  Selling the stocks was just a way for an entrepreneur to make money by selling something that you could do all by yourself for a lot less money.  BTW they are not as easy to use and you might think. They require a modicum of coordination and practice to make function and the resulting accuracy is rather poor to say the least. 

 

If firearms were to suddenly vanish tomorrow these same mentally disturbed individuals would resort to another tool that meets their needs.

Just yesterday they arrested two brothers in New York collecting the materials to make a bomb. One was a teacher paying students to disassemble fireworks and collect the black powder. Initial indications were that they were going to target children

 

The real problem is that the 24 hour news cycle puts tragedy like this in everyone face continuously for days making the perpetrators infamous in the process. Each news source is vying for your attention so they do all they can to get you glued to their broadcast. This plants ideas into the minds of the mentally disturbed until they too begin to plan their attack because they want to be infamous and remembered by history for their despicable acts.

 

The sensationalizing of a tragedy creates copy cats. Suicides in the US rose 10% after the much publicized suicide of Robin Williams.

 

One last parting thought;

About 2000 16 to 19 year old children die in automobile accidents every year and over 200,000 are injured every year This breaks down to 5 deaths and 549 injuries EVERY DAY yet no news organization is putting this tragedy in our faces 24-7 and demanding that congress pass more laws to keep them from being killed and injured in automobiles. 

 

 

 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Final add on, and hope some will see and understanding:

The Bill of Rights- The first 10 Amendments which add specific rights guarantees to personal rights and Freedoms.

Freedom of the Press- does not specify what maybe written nor hinder the writer. Back then it was mostly newspapers, today its also the internet, Television and radios, none of which were in existence when written, yet are still protected.

 

Freedom of Religion-Does not specify what Religions, but since written, over 100 new religions and sects have been started, all are protected.

 

Freedom to Bear Arms- Does not specify what arms maybe held or owned by individuals. Nor was it ever debated during the centuries as new innovation and inventions have progressed. It was only during the 20th Century that limitations and restriction have come about, and in some areas, firearms by individuals are limited.

 

What is troublesome, is that seeing and hearing that there are shooters and gun owners that actually agree what guns we may and may not have.  YUP! Slowly their winning,  MT

 

I'm done on this subject. My heart goes out to those that have lost loved ones.

But also, lets get to what the real problems are and not the means used.

Only law abiding people will ever follow laws and restrictions. How will laws and restrictions be enforced on the criminals? We can't even control drugs coming into our country, nor enforce the laws on them. How many young kids die from drugs each year?  MT

[Pat Riot]

Ok, let’s take a different tack...

 

How would you feel about a trend or a law that says that if guns were not manufactured in a facility that had computer or electronic cataloguing and records keeping were put up as needing to be banned as they can no longer be tracked?

 

Be careful nit-picking because you don’t like something. There are other ways to skin our cats!

 

[Saddle Up Slim]

The news is talking about a coach who put himself in the line of fire to protect the students. I keep wondering what would have happened if he were armed. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

5 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

I suppose you could lay it to my own fantasy: that these guns had never entered civilian ownership. But they did, and  that cat was out of the bag decades ago.

 

 

This, in California, is an "assault rifle."


Note the evil and deadly flash hider and the detachable magazine.

Do you really think that the Ruger Mini-14 should have "never entered civilian ownership?"  

How about other semi-auto rifles?  Getting onto a real slippery slope here, and well into the incrementalism the gun banners are using.  

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

6 hours ago, grenadier said:

Common misconception, the Swiss do not require anyone to own nor have in their homes a firearm. Even military are no longer required to keep their firearms in their home. Firearm ownership in Switzerland is strong but it is not what it was 50 years ago. I do not believe I have been inside of a home in Switzerland that did not have at least one firearm.

 

grenadier:

    Thank you for that insightful comparison.

    More to the point, the fact that criminals KNOW the potential for regular citizens to carry (even if they don't) can result in less crime.

    That's why having these posted  only INVITES criminals.

                If a choice had to be made,

 

[Smoken D]

49 minutes ago, Saddle Up Slim said:

The news is talking about a coach who put himself in the line of fire to protect the students. I keep wondering what would have happened if he were armed. 

 

Why we have armed faculty in our schools. No one other than the school board knows who they are. Even the faculty does not know which ones are armed. They go through a very tough training every year and shoot at least once a month. And we are just a small school system in the poorest county in the state.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

I see that this thread has gone somewhat off course from the OP, and I am somewhat guilty of the same, in that regard.

There is a tragedy that has occurred here, and our hearts go out to those who have lost LOVED ONES.

Gun Control, Gun Regulations, 2nd Amendment rights have been debated ad nauseam, and are just an off-shoot of that tragedy.

I guess I can best sum up my stance on this thread by relaying what happened this morning on the drive into work. The radio played more news on the shooting, but it wasn't until I heard a father talk of loosing his 14 year old daughter that I began to choke up with my eyes welling up with tears at the pain this family is going through. My wife and I do not have children, but the fact that I can still feel his pain through the mere sound of his voice, makes me sad.

THAT is what is at the heart of this matter.

[Utah Bob #35998]

MSN article this morning. This is how anti gun groups play fast and loose with the facts.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/no-there-haven’t-been-18-school-shootings-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/ar-BBJbqgy?li=BBnb7Kz

[Dantankerous]

My opinion only, for what it's worth...

 

In most if not all school shooting cases including my own as well as this week's example the shooters are usually students themselves. As an adult and a parent it is my nature to want to protect all children and kids. And I'm sure if I came face-to-face with a 14 or 15 year old kid who my brain was having a hard time wrapping around the truth that he was pointing a gun at me or someone else in a classroom setting in school would naturally give me pause. That would need to sink in, the "is this really happening?" question we would ask ourselves immediately. I'm sure anybody in that situation might experience this. However, it is also my opinion that if a student is pointing a gun at another student or teacher in said school setting they have stopped being an innocent child/student and have become a dangerous criminal threat and must be dealt with accordingly. Answering the question of what is in fact "accordingly" I will leave alone. At least for now.

 

We live in a peaceful society for the most part and most people never have to deal with violence in person. Nor do we expect to. First responders have to deal with ugly all the time. They get used to it and train for it. Teachers and educators by and large are more nurturing in many ways than not, at least that is my hope. How does one make a split-second decision to offensively protect their students as opposed to defensively protect their students just as we have seen brave teachers sacrifice their lives for their students in the face of ugly violence? Some teachers training for and carrying concealed weapons is only part of the equation. Mindset and preparedness for that worst possible day in your life is another. I would like to think teachers should teach and professionally trained security guards could provide protection. In smaller schools with less money that paid security might not be an option.  The issue is obvious. Getting to all the answers will be unfortunately more complex than not especially given the politically correct mindset of half the people in this country. And who will be the losers? More students. 

[Wapaloosie73]

57 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

I see that this thread has gone somewhat off course from the OP, and I am somewhat guilty of the same, in that regard.

There is a tragedy that has occurred here, and our hearts go out to those who have lost LOVED ONES.

Gun Control, Gun Regulations, 2nd Amendment rights have been debated ad nauseam, and are just an off-shoot of that tragedy.

I guess I can best sum up my stance on this thread by relaying what happened this morning on the drive into work. The radio played more news on the shooting, but it wasn't until I heard a father talk of loosing his 14 year old daughter that I began to choke up with my eyes welling up with tears at the pain this family is going through. My wife and I do not have children, but the fact that I can still feel his pain through the mere sound of his voice, makes me sad.

THAT is what is at the heart of this matter.

 

I think we are within the OPs intent to debate how best to stop this menace?

 

My heart also goes out to all the parents and survivors. I have four children myself.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Wonder if the rifle was really bought by the shooter? 

If a person truly believes, that if you remove a item from society-and that it will then end this carnage.

They have been in their 'cave', way to long........

OLG

 

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

8 minutes ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

 

I think we are within the OPs intent to debate how best to stop this menace?

 

My heart also goes out to all the parents and survivors. I have four children myself.

 

Wapaloosie73:

   Sincere apologies if my intent was confusing.

   I wasn't trying to negate the need to debate over how to resolve these type tragedies from occurring, but that they are two separate issues that seem to be intertwining in this one thread. Emotions are high on grieving for those that lost loved ones, and posts relating to that topic have become intermingled with the gun debate.

   I guess I was trying to point out that I would have liked to see two separate threads, one for the grieving and one for the gun debate.

   Sort of feels like someone rushing into a prayer vigil for the LOVED ONES to talk about how to solve the problem of gun violence. IMHO, Oil & Vinegar.

   No disrespect intended, as that was never my intent.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Wonder if the rifle was really bought by the shooter? 

If a person truly believes, that if you remove a item from society-and that it will then end this carnage.

They have been in their 'cave', way to long........

OLG

 

 

OLG:

   According to the FBI, the gun was purchased by the shooter legally; however he supposedly had no previous criminal history.

   Doesn't account for the change in attitude subsequent to the purchase and eventual incident, as is such the case in these tragedies.

[Oklahomabound]

...forget the firearm discussion and focus on the real issues:

1. How did he get in the school-round here the schools are locked down and have to go to one door and request entry...

2. This kid(killer) had been reported to the FBI about his youtube videos weeks before....

3. This kid(killer) was mentally ill and all the kids said they knew he would be the one...

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

3 hours ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

 

I think we are within the OPs intent to debate how best to stop this menace?

 

My heart also goes out to all the parents and survivors. I have four children myself.

As the OP, my intent actually was not to spark discussion or debate, merely to inform what had just happened. 

We have this exact same debate everytime there is a mass shooting. Just allows us to vent I guess.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Latest info indicates that the FBI REALLY blew it this time. Terrible! 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Some want more gun control laws or bans on certain firearms (won't express what I think of such folks here) -  yet the government can't even get a handle on enforcement protocols with the laws already on the books. 

 

GG ~ 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

8 hours ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Final add on, and hope some will see and understanding:

The Bill of Rights- The first 10 Amendments which add specific rights guarantees to personal rights and Freedoms.

Freedom of the Press- does not specify what maybe written nor hinder the writer. Back then it was mostly newspapers, today its also the internet, Television and radios, none of which were in existence when written, yet are still protected.

 

Freedom of Religion-Does not specify what Religions, but since written, over 100 new religions and sects have been started, all are protected.

 

Freedom to Bear Arms- Does not specify what arms maybe held or owned by individuals. Nor was it ever debated during the centuries as new innovation and inventions have progressed. It was only during the 20th Century that limitations and restriction have come about, and in some areas, firearms by individuals are limited.

 

What is troublesome, is that seeing and hearing that there are shooters and gun owners that actually agree what guns we may and may not have.  YUP! Slowly their winning,  MT

 

I'm done on this subject. My heart goes out to those that have lost loved ones.

But also, lets get to what the real problems are and not the means used.

Only law abiding people will ever follow laws and restrictions. How will laws and restrictions be enforced on the criminals? We can't even control drugs coming into our country, nor enforce the laws on them. How many young kids die from drugs each year?  MT

That is incorrect. There are rules and regulations governing all of the bill of rights. There are libel laws and fairness doctrine for the press. Freedom of speech isn’t all encompassing. You must have permits to assemble and are subject to noise and other laws. And the list goes on. I don’t agree with the current attempts at gun control, but let’s not assume only the second amendment is being regulated. 

[Sixgun Sheridan]

11 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

There are lots of solid gun owners who don't like ARs at all, and I suppose it isn't totally surprising that a cowboy shooting group would have at least a few. I know a few outside the game who feel the same way (a few is to say the least). These are a lightning rod and we spend all our time on talking about them under very lousy circumstances.

 

My father and I were always at odds over this subject. He coveted his M1 Garand, yet he always said "nobody needs one of those damn AR-15s". I was always quick to remind him that his Garand is a weapon of war no different than an AR-15. Same with his bolt-action 1917 Enfield, which was also built for fighting wars and not for hunting. Nonetheless he always drew the line with ARs, for reasons that to this day remain fuzzy to me. I guess it's a generation thing. AR-15s are so different from the old guns of yore with their blued steel and walnut stocks that it's probably easy to separate them.

[Pat Riot]

1 hour ago, Oklahomabound said:

...forget the firearm discussion and focus on the real issues:

1. How did he get in the school-round here the schools are locked down and have to go to one door and request entry...

2. This kid(killer) had been reported to the FBI about his youtube videos weeks before....

3. This kid(killer) was mentally ill and all the kids said they knew he would be the one...

 

It has been my personal experience on 2 different occasions reporting anything to the FBI is a joke and a waste of time. Perhaps they need to be taken to task even more than they have been of late.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Latest info indicates that the FBI REALLY blew it this time. Terrible! 

 

Most likely too involved in the cover up regarding the Russian collusion scenario. 

Sorry, got off topic again. 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

27 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

That is incorrect. There are rules and regulations governing all of the bill of rights.

Were in the Constitution, please show me were there were Rules written to regulate the Original Bill of Rights? Laws were written, enacted, later to control misused, or control from abuse, or regulate. I was using the term as original written.

The Press can and does write outrageous print, we see it daily. Also you still have the Freedom of Speech, regulating assemble, doesn't take away the Freedom of Speech, just maybe a different venue to give your view.

I have no idea what otherwise your post says as written.  MT

I can imagine the outrage if the government did try to regulate the Press, or religion.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Were in the Constitution, please show me were there were Rules written to regulate the Original Bill of Rights? Laws were written, enacted, later to control misused, or control from abuse, or regulate. I was using the term as original written.

The Press can and does write outrageous print, we see it daily. Also you still have the Freedom of Speech, regulating assemble, doesn't take away the Freedom of Speech, just maybe a different venue to give your view.

I have no idea what otherwise your post says as written.  MT

Now you’re saying two different things. Your first paragraph says no regulations in the bill of rights as written. Ok fair enough

 

Then you go on to say that regulating speech isn’t removing the freedom. That’s exactly what the antis say about gun control 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

1 minute ago, Redwood Kid said:

 

 

Then you go on to say that regulating speech isn’t removing the freedom. That’s exactly what the antis say about gun control 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

 Freedom of speech isn’t all encompassing. You must have permits to assemble and are subject to noise and other laws. And the list goes on. I don’t agree with the current attempts at gun control, but let’s not assume only the second amendment is being regulated. 

Going by what you write. Your last word being "regulated". MT

 

[Clay Mosby]

2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Latest info indicates that the FBI REALLY blew it this time. Terrible! 

Just saw a statement from the FBI acknowledging that they dropped the ball on this one! Did not expect them to take responsibility this quickly.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

8 minutes ago, Clay Mosby said:

Just saw a statement from the FBI acknowledging that they dropped the ball on this one! Did not expect them to take responsibility this quickly.

 

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-on-the-shooting-in-parkland-florida

 

GG ~