Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Creeker, SASS #43022

When does the pistol string end?

Recommended Posts

I was working on the stages for the Eldorado Cowboys "Best Shoot by a Dam Site" when I had a "hmmm" moment.

 

The stage I was working on contains split pistols.

As a matter of fact, the firearm sequence is

pistol-shotgun-rifle-shotgun- pistol.

So I decided to make it a single position stand and deliver; allowing the Gunfighters to draw both pistols, shoot five, ground the pistols and return to them as needed.

Easy enough, we do it all the time.

 

But then it got me to thinking about other categories and choosing to ground their pistols.

The rules allow the 1st pistol to be grounded and the 2nd pistol to be shot (completing the pistol string) before holstering either pistol.

 

In my sequence of split pistols; when does the pistol string end?

 

Could a shooter choose to ground their first pistol, shoot the other firearms and then shoot their 2nd pistol and then holster their 1st grounded pistol at the end of the stage?

 

Or because there are other firearms in play; does this create two separate pistol strings and require a shooter to holster pistol number one before firing a different type of gun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all is in the scenario and the Match Director can decide if the first revolver has to be reholstered before the second firearm was shot or it she shooter can or had to stage this pistol before the second firearms and take an holster it after the last gun was shot. This way do not let room for long debates during the pre stage briefing

Edited by Curly Red Ryder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

......or could a GF shoot the stage double duelist, ground the first pistol shoot the other firearms and then shoot their 2nd pistol and then holster their 1st grounded pistol at the end of the stage?

 

I think the answer to the question is, are there any rounds left in the pistol before moving on to the next type of firearm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could put the directive in after the first pistol to " make safe"

Shooter can then ground it, shoot other guns and holster it at the end of 2nd pistol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Contrary to apparently popular belief, Gunfighters do not have to draw both pistols at the same time. The one time I tried Gunfighter, there was a state with split pistols. I shot it double duelist. Caused some confusion but somebody checked they handbook and saw that it was a perfectly legal way to do it.

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you described the Stage, there are two pistol strings. If you say nothing about staging pistols, then the first pistol must be holstered per stage conventions. If you state "make pistol safe", then the shooter has the option of staging or holstering the pistol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO, if NOT shooting GF, the first pistol would need to be holstered before shooting the next gun.... unless the scenario states otherwise.

 

Snakebite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO, if NOT shooting GF, the first pistol would need to be holstered before shooting the next gun.... unless the scenario states otherwise.

 

Snakebite

TADA!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading the definition of shooting string in the shooters handbook, I think you would need to holster the first pistol prior to shooting the next type of firearm. I think gunfighters would be the only ones who could stage pistols after the first pistol sequence. I could be wrong though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To reinforce what DS stated, because you are getting into a gray area with your stage where the rules could get argued either way, your stae description had better make it clear which way you are going to allow shooters to run the guns.

 

It sounds like your design intent here is to split the pistols with shotgun following each of 5 revolver shots. A GF can accomplish that either by double duelist (and either by drawing one gun at a time, or drawing two and shooting only one, staging, and picking up one or both but only firing the second pistol duelist). So, state the SEQUENCE of guns clearly. In this case, yes, you would have two separate revolver strings and two separate shotgun strings. Meaning the first pistol should be returned to leather for non GF, UNLESS your stage instructions give the shooter permission to stage the revolver(s) between strings.

 

If you don't care if a shooter mixes the sequence of guns and only want a revolver to start and rifle not last, state it that way. And you will get folks who shoot all 10 revolver shots first. And some shooting all 10 rifle shots first. More of a shooter's choice stage.

 

All will depend upon how you write the stage to make it clear.

 

Good luck, GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe just write the stage to where everything is staged on the table, and guns may be returned to the table or holstered?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my humble opinion, it's clear as it's written. Pistol-shotgun-rifle-shotgun-pistol. That is two separate pistol strings.

Stage conversations say revolvers go back to leather after the string except gun fighters.

Anything else would be covered in stage instructions, if you want to make it confusing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my humble opinion, it's clear as it's written. Pistol-shotgun-rifle-shotgun-pistol. That is two separate pistol strings.

Stage conversations say revolvers go back to leather after the string except gun fighters.

Anything else would be covered in stage instructions, if you want to make it confusing.

I agree that it is 2 pistol strings as written. However an argument could have some merit based on the rule which says that a gunfighter may not engage a stage in a manner that other styles can not. This creates a small gray area that I have not thought about before. I would like to hear the opinion of the ROC on this one. If a gunfighter can stage his pistols and retrieve them at the end of the stage I feel like everyone else should have that option. I personally never have done that in a match and don't plan to but that is neither here nor there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it's a stand and deliver give the shooters the option. I have witnessed, issued and received too many penalties for not reholstering when pistols start from a non muscle memory position. The only time I would make it mandatory to reholster the pistols when they start on a table is if there will be a safety issue such as down range movement. Makes no difference on this stage, unless the stage writer likes the idea of mandatory reholster for some reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe just write the stage to where everything is staged on the table, and guns may be returned to the table or holstered?

I like this idea. Seems simple and covers muscle memory (holstering) or speed (not holstering).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this case, yes, you would have two separate revolver strings and two separate shotgun strings. Meaning the first pistol should be returned to leather for non GF, UNLESS your stage instructions give the shooter permission to stage the revolver(s) between strings.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Yep, if you want to allow non-GF to be able to stage the first pistol on prop then it needs to say this in stage instructions. When I write stages I always put notes at the bottom that say sumpin like; Sweeps may start on either end, sweeps may go in either direction. Stage Conventions apply. I see no gray area, GF may choose different ways to shoot this stage. I think everything here is covered by Stage Conventions, rules and definitions.

Stage Conventions RO I p13

7. Revolvers are returned to leather after the shooting string.

8. Revolvers are drawn and used in accordance with the shooter’s category.

RO I p15

6. Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered) with hammer down on a spent case or empty

chamber at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically

directs otherwise; e.g., “move to next position and set gun on table or prop.” A shooting

string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

(Gunfighters may choose to shoot five rounds, safely stage their loaded revolvers, hammer

down on a spent cartridge, shoot another firearm, retrieve the revolvers, and finish the

“shooting string” before re-holstering.)

Definitions p31

Shooting string – shots from one type of firearm prior to use of the next type of firearm engaged.

 

Or you could use two shooting postions; 1st five pistol rounds table 1....move to table 2. SG, Rifle, SG, Pistol. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe just write the stage to where everything is staged on the table, and guns may be returned to the table or holstered?

You could do this, BUT IMO best remind the GF he must use both hands. I can see where the GF sets up his gun to shoot Duelist and uses both with strong hand. Yes he should know the rules. BUT I've seen it happen and get called.

 

EMM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could do this, BUT IMO best remind the GF he must use both hands. I can see where the GF sets up his gun to shoot Duelist and uses both with strong hand. Yes he should know the rules. BUT I've seen it happen and get called.

 

EMM

The GF would earn a progressive penalty, with the first stage earning a P for the GF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Creeker

 

In the proposed stage, there are 5 strings, including 2 revolver strings--whether you are shooting GF or not---because all shooters are changing firearm types 4 times. Yes, the stage conventions, as noted, require that the revolver be returned to leather at the end of the string, BUT those shooting GF style are expressly forbidden to reholster with the intent to use the revolvers again and so must shoot double duelist unless stage design accommodate grounding the pistols. Furthermore, as the relevant stage convention pertaining to a single revolver being deployed specifically notes, it may be overridden with instructions requiring or permitting the revolver to be staged rather than reholstered. It is not necessary that the revolvers first be staged in order to permit/require them to be staged after use. For the sake of clarity and consistency, in writing your stage instructions, you could simply require all shooters to stage the revolver(s) at the end of the first revolver string. Or you could permit it for those shooting other than GF style, allowing them the choice either of reholstering the first revolver or of staging it until the stage concludes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on the original post, I figured the stage was probably written something like this...

 

Draw first pistol and engage target

Make pistol safe

Use shotgun to engage target twice

Make Shotgun safe

Use rifle to engage target

Make Rifle safe

Use Shotgun to engage target twice

Make Shotgun safe

Draw second pistol and engage target.

 

 

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Don't see what all the fuss is about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BUT IMO best remind the GF he must use both hands. I can see where the GF sets up his gun to shoot Duelist and uses both with strong hand. Yes he should know the rules. BUT I've seen it happen and get called.

 

EMM

;)

 

Don't see what all the fuss is about.

I don't either, we've been shooting split pistols since we signed up for SASS many moons ago. If you want shooters to have an option usually not permited in their category say it in stage instructions. There are Stage Conventions, rules and definitions for all to read. No need to remind GF or any other category what their limitations are. When in doubt :huh: ask when the stage is read. Other than that "STAND BY......BEEP" :D Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No need to remind GF or any other category what their limitations are.

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Ok, then answer the initial question.

 

If a supported shooter or a duelist grounds pistol one and then proceeds to shoot their rifle and shotgun.

Then shoots pistol two and THEN holsters both pistols.

 

Are you calling a penalty for failing to holster at the conclusion of the pistol string?

 

Is a pistol string all rounds from both pistols or does the inclusion of other guns between the pistol create two separate pistol strings?

 

It is a "possible" action and I do not see a definitive answer in the books.

All I really want to do is get the call correct; regardless of what the call ends up being.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on the original post, I figured the stage was probably written something like this...

 

Draw first pistol and engage target

Make pistol safe

Use shotgun to engage target twice

Make Shotgun safe

Use rifle to engage target

Make Rifle safe

Use Shotgun to engage target twice

Make Shotgun safe

Draw second pistol and engage target.

 

 

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Don't see what all the fuss is about.

No need to state "Make XXXX Safe" If a shooter ain't smart enough to know that already, they need a talking to. What else are they gonna do? Make them unsafe? By saying make them safe you have practically DOUBLED the stage instructions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Give the shooters and the TOs a gift. Tell them in the stage instructions that as long as they use the firearms in the specified order no P's will be assessed.

 

Now go have fun! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Is a pistol string all rounds from both pistols or does the inclusion of other guns between the pistol create two separate pistol strings?

 

Are two pieces of string separated by a wall one string or two? Sure it's two strings.

 

 

Write it into the stage if you want to override standard stage conventions and NOT require immediate re-holstering of revolver after the first five shots for anyone but GF style.

 

Or make it real simple and REQUIRE restaging revolvers back on the table! Collect them after the stage is done.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No need to state "Make XXXX Safe" If a shooter ain't smart enough to know that already, they need a talking to. What else are they gonna do? Make them unsafe? By saying make them safe you have practically DOUBLED the stage instructions.

I have to disagree. Make safe instruction on a split pistol means make the pistol safe. Either laying on a flat surface pointed down range or holster. I do agree it is kinda of redundant to say make safe after each gun. Unless you are allowing it to be staged at another location from the shooting station.

 

We shoot a lot of shooters choice, therefore I see a lot of make safe. It gives the shooter more options. Besides it is only two words but gives a lot of lead way.

 

Good shooting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When they fire the next firearm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to disagree. Make safe instruction on a split pistol means make the pistol safe. Either laying on a flat surface pointed down range or holster. I do agree it is kinda of redundant to say make safe after each gun. Unless you are allowing it to be staged at another location from the shooting station.

 

We shoot a lot of shooters choice, therefore I see a lot of make safe. It gives the shooter more options. Besides it is only two words but gives a lot of lead way.

 

Good shooting

I reiterate, shouldn't have to tell them to make safe. Shooter has two choices. Either to make it safe or unsafe. If a shooter doesn't already know to make it safe, they need to learn.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I reiterate, shouldn't have to tell them to make safe. Shooter has two choices. Either to make it safe or unsafe. If a shooter doesn't already know to make it safe, they need to learn.......

Not quite right Boggus, yes we all know how to make safe, but the rules state pistols must be holstered at the end of the shooting string. The string is 10 shots even if it's split, so if you ground the first pistol and their are no instructions to do so like make safe then yes you will cop a penalty.

Trouble is today there are not many spilt pistol stages cause gunfighters don't like em. LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The string is 10 shots even if it's split,

 

WRONG! Not applicable when a different gun type is what causes the split. It is true when movement to a new position causes the "split" - but then, that is not a split by the definition below, either.

 

Here's the applicable definition:

 

A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

Shooter's Handbook, Page 23

 

When shooter goes to any other gun but another revolver, the first revolver string ends!

Either holster by stage convention, or override the need to holster with instructions in the stage description.

 

It's really pretty simple to do EITHER and avoid arguments at the match.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not quite right Boggus, yes we all know how to make safe, but the rules state pistols must be holstered at the end of the shooting string. The string is 10 shots even if it's split, so if you ground the first pistol and their are no instructions to do so like make safe then yes you will cop a penalty.

Trouble is today there are not many spilt pistol stages cause gunfighters don't like em. LOL

Jackaroo, my point has nothing to do with when the string ends, in what order the guns are fired or where they start. It's very simple. When finished with a gun we MUST MAKE IT SAFE. If a shooter don't know that, someone needs to have a chat with them. As a stage writer, I don't need to waste time writing it. As a posse marshal, I don't need to waste time saying it. Edited by Boggus Deal #64218

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is a pistol string all rounds from both pistols or does the inclusion of other guns between the pistol create two separate pistol strings?

 

It is a "possible" action and I do not see a definitive answer in the books.

All I really want to do is get the call correct; regardless of what the call ends up being.

Howdy Creeker, IMHO it is covered in several locations from RO I, by definiton a shooting string ends with shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type. As soon as you start shooting a different firearm the prior string is over. GF or B-W shooting GF are the only categories allowed to stage pistols on prop or table, unless otherwise specified in stage instructions. BTW, I do like your stages and have been know to use them to add some western flavor. Good Luck :)

RO I Stage Conventions p13

7. Revolvers are returned to leather after the shooting string.

RO I p15

A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

RO I Definitions p31

Shooting string – shots from one type of firearm prior to use of the next type of firearm engaged.

 

Penalty- Not returning revolvers to leather unless otherwise specified.

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was working on the stages for the Eldorado Cowboys "Best Shoot by a Dam Site" when I had a "hmmm" moment.

 

The stage I was working on contains split pistols.

As a matter of fact, the firearm sequence is

pistol-shotgun-rifle-shotgun- pistol.

So I decided to make it a single position stand and deliver; allowing the Gunfighters to draw both pistols, shoot five, ground the pistols and return to them as needed.

Easy enough, we do it all the time.

 

But then it got me to thinking about other categories and choosing to ground their pistols.

The rules allow the 1st pistol to be grounded and the 2nd pistol to be shot (completing the pistol string) before holstering either pistol.

 

In my sequence of split pistols; when does the pistol string end?

 

Could a shooter choose to ground their first pistol, shoot the other firearms and then shoot their 2nd pistol and then holster their 1st grounded pistol at the end of the stage?

 

Or because there are other firearms in play; does this create two separate pistol strings and require a shooter to holster pistol number one before firing a different type of gun?

The way you have explained the stage.....And without stage instruction allowing tableing/grounding the pistols.....

Two handed shooters and Duelists would be required to holster the pistol after shooting the first five shots, as it was the end of the five shot string.

Shooters shooting Gunfighter style could stage the two pistols for further use or shoot the stage double duelist holstering the pistol after the first five shots.

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Boggus, what you're saying is that we can leave a pistol anywhere if not in the holster, as long as it's deemed safe?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Boggus, what you're saying is that we can leave a pistol anywhere if not in the holster, as long as it's deemed safe?

Not Boggus, but no, unless the stage directions allow you to, otherwise it must be holstered. And if there is another gun between the pistols, the pistol string consists of FIVE shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.