Club Rule

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

One of the clubs I shoot at has a rule that all rifles will show clear on the firing line, after the stage is over, before going to the unloading table. Haven't thought to much about this rule until this weekend. On the last stage I had a problem at the loading table with my pistols coming up short one round. So I unloaded both pistols thinking that I over loaded one and found that there was just nine rounds on the table. The loading block I use, is set up distinctly to show 10 rounds for the rifle and 5 for each pistol. My thought was that I dropped a pistol round and retrieved one from my belt and loaded the pistols. The person following me, checked my pistols to verify the were good to go. Off I go to shoot the stage, pistols ,rifle then shotgun. Went back to the rifle to show clear by closing the lever and pulling the trigger (range rule) to show clear. Guess what, BANG goes the rifle. Scared the livin peawater right out of me. I found the missing round. To back up a little, I have very bad arthritis in my knees and by the 6th stage of the day I was experiencing severe pain and just not paying attention at the loading table, (I take full responsibility for this by the way). This brings me back to the rule of showing clear at the firing line for the rifle. I think it is a good rule and more clubs may want to think about it. Jus sayin.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Well, that's one way of showing it clear..... I think it would be more prudent to work the action several times while having the RO look at it and leave it open to show clear.

[Snakebite]

I've always thought that "Showing clear" at the end of the stage while still on the Stage itself was a good idea, but it has never been picked up in CAS. It suppose that it would take a bit more time, which could really add up at a major match where Beep to Beep time must be kept as fast as possible, but it's still not a bad idea.

 

Snakebite

[Captain Clark]

Interesting! Did you incur any penalties on the rifle? I assume your rifle was pointed downrange..

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Before pulling the trigger, it's VERY prudent to cycle the action a couple of times BEFORE pulling the trigger, whether at the loading table or in this case, complying with a Club rule. When off the clock, it's prudent to look in the action, to visibly see that nothing is on the carrier.

 

RBK

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Interesting! Did you incur any penalties on the rifle? I assume your rifle was pointed downrange..

Should have been a minor safety. Per the Shooter's Handbook and ROI manual.

[Shooting Bull]

Back when I was a bottom feeder (1911 shooter) we had a local steel match that required you to show your open empty action, empty mag well, then lower the slide and pull the trigger. Only then were you allowed to leave the stage. Worked for them but I don't really see it as being necessary in our sport. As long as people follow our established rules of having the action open and empty the gun can't go bang.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Back when I was a bottom feeder (1911 shooter) we had a local steel match that required you to show your open empty action, empty mag well, then lower the slide and pull the trigger. Only then were you allowed to leave the stage. Worked for them but I don't really see it as being necessary in our sport. As long as people follow our established rules of having the action open and empty the gun can't go bang.

That works very well in Wild Bunch for the 1911.

[Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022]

My personal thought on this is to flip rifle over after cycling it and look for the follower face. If you see follower, the gun is indeed empty, anything else, you may have a problem

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

Whoops, sorry quoted the wrong reply!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Well, that's one way of showing it clear..... I think it would be more prudent to work the action several times while having the RO look at it and leave it open to show clear.

Exactly, who the heck came up with the "pulling the trigger thing"??

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Exactly, who the heck came up with the "pulling the trigger thing"??

+1

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Exactly, who the heck came up with the "pulling the trigger thing"??

As Shooting Bull noted, it happens in other shooting genres with semi autos. We do it in Wild Bunch. RO commands: Unload and Show Clear. Slide down. Hammer down(pull trigger). Holster.

[Blastmaster]

Good practice to count the rounds going into each firearm, even if you using a loading block. If you are ever unsure of rounds going in, then unload firearm and start over.

 

I don't just pull the trigger to drop the hammer. Cycle the action several times. If club rule exist, then cycle action several times, point firearm down range and then pull the trigger.

 

I hope that club rule doesn't propagate.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

This event shows the wisdom of NRA's gun safety rules. Always treated a firearm as loaded and keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. The consequence in this case was merely a surprised shooter. BTW we had a lady shooter loose a state championship for this very same thing happening at an unloading table.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

And remembering that magazine tubes get rusty and dented and springs fail. ALWAYS good to look for the follower on the rifle.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I'm not sure we need more rules to cover a situation already covered. Clearing a rifle or pistols is critically important, and should be done at the ULT, then checked again at the LT. The risk of an undiscovered round being fired should be nil, but muzzle safety and other safe gun handling techniques cover all that. We'd never get a round down range if we become so paranoid that we make so many rules that we become afraid to touch a gun. This scenario started with 3 guns and 20 bullets. When one of the bullets became unaccounted for, there were only 3 places to look. It was not in the first two, so there was only one place left for it to be. We probably don't need a layer of regulation because that remaining location was not checked.

 

CR

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

Interesting! Did you incur any penalties on the rifle? I assume your rifle was pointed downrange..

Minor safety, and yes the rifle was pointed at the berm.

[Captain Clark]

Should have been a minor safety. Per the Shooter's Handbook and ROI manual.

I agree BD, was wondering as there wasn't any mention in OP!

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

I'm not sure we need more rules to cover a situation already covered. Clearing a rifle or pistols is critically important, and should be done at the ULT, then checked again at the LT. The risk of an undiscovered round being fired should be nil, but muzzle safety and other safe gun handling techniques cover all that. We'd never get a round down range if we become so paranoid that we make so many rules that we become afraid to touch a gun. This scenario started with 3 guns and 20 bullets. When one of the bullets became unaccounted for, there were only 3 places to look. It was not in the first two, so there was only one place left for it to be. We probably don't need a layer of regulation because that remaining location was not checked.

 

CR

You are correct, it was my fault, and as I said, my thinking was not where it should have been.

[Captain Clark]

Minor safety, and yes the rifle was pointed at the berm.

Thanks For the update Paladin.

[The Wichita Southpaw]

I've done it (but not at a cowboy shoot). It's hard on the underware. Got in the habit of cycling the action 5 or 6 times, every time, before dropping the hammer.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

You are correct, it was my fault, and as I said, my thinking was not where it should have been.

You have been candid about your responsibility for the incident, and I think this discussion, along with an earlier thread about a round that got lodged in the tube, are great refreshers and serve as a reminder to stay safe. I find myself double checking these things a little more in recent times.

 

CR

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

Because of a similar post a week or so ago about rounds getting stuck in the mag tube, I have painted my follower orange so that I can see it while checking my rifle. Don't know if the paint will last, but it didn't cost anything.

[Duncan Disorderly]

My personal thought on this is to flip rifle over after cycling it and look for the follower face. If you see follower, the gun is indeed empty, anything else, you may have a problem

won't work on all rifles, like my '92.

 

If the action is open it can't go bang and you lever it a few times at the unloading table - should be good enough.

[J-BAR #18287]

OK, help me out with a definition here. I'm not trying to be a harda$$, just wanting to understand a distinction.

 

I think we have a rule that any accidental discharge on the firing line, which includes loading and unloading tables is a match DQ. The extra round was not fired during the course of fire. Why would not this situation be considered an accidental discharge? The shooter was not expecting it, the TO was not expecting it...it sounds kinda accidental to me...

 

So how are we to make the judgement between situations that justify a Minor Safety penalty, versus a MDQ penalty?

 

Sorry for my ignorance, but I am confused.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

OK, help me out with a definition here. I'm not trying to be a harda$$, just wanting to understand a distinction.

 

I think we have a rule that any accidental discharge on the firing line, which includes loading and unloading tables is a match DQ. The extra round was not fired during the course of fire. Why would not this situation be considered an accidental discharge? The shooter was not expecting it, the TO was not expecting it...it sounds kinda accidental to me...

 

So how are we to make the judgement between situations that justify a Minor Safety penalty, versus a MDQ penalty?

 

Sorry for my ignorance, but I am confused.

 

There is NO REFERENCE to "accidental" discharge in the rules.

REF: RO1 p.17 #13 for the applicable rule/penalty that would apply in the OP situation.

...besides the MSV for the round left in the long gun.

 

No comment on any "club rules" requiring practices beyond what SASS requires.

[Kid Drover]

"Smedly, My BROWN pants, please!"

 

Let's face it, a major rule of gun safety was broken - " the shooter ASSUMED the gun was unloaded when he pulled the trigger at the unloading table. If you don't check it for being clear at the unloading table what makes everyone think it will be cleared by the TO and Shooter while still on the line....every time. If it was checked properly at the unloading table, and the shooter didn't assume something that obviously was not true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We have a rule that works, why pile on? Just follow the rules we have, and everyone will be safe.

 

KCD

[J-BAR #18287]

Thanks, PWB, for the clarification. Apparently an unexpected discharge is not necessarily "unsafe".

[Blastmaster]

ROI, pg 17

 

13. Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop from five to ten feet from the shooter, while on the stage, will result in a Stage Disqualification. Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop less than five feet from the shooter while on the stage, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, any discharge off the firing line, or any discharge that is deemed unsafe will result in a Match Disqualification.

 

I guess it depends on what is considered an unsafe discharge of a firearm.

 

An unexpected discharge to the shooter & TO would be?

[Boggus Deal #64218]

"Smedly, My BROWN pants, please!"

 

Let's face it, a major rule of gun safety was broken - " the shooter ASSUMED the gun was unloaded when he pulled the trigger at the unloading table. If you don't check it for being clear at the unloading table what makes everyone think it will be cleared by the TO and Shooter while still on the line....every time. If it was checked properly at the unloading table, and the shooter didn't assume something that obviously was not true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We have a rule that works, why pile on? Just follow the rules we have, and everyone will be safe.

 

KCD

Uhhhhmmmm. It wasn't at the unloading table.... It was still on the firing line.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

ROI, pg 17

 

13. Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop from five to ten feet from the shooter, while on the stage, will result in a Stage Disqualification. Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop less than five feet from the shooter while on the stage, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, any discharge off the firing line, or any discharge that is deemed unsafe will result in a Match Disqualification.

 

I guess it depends on what is considered an unsafe discharge of a firearm.

 

An unexpected discharge to the shooter & TO would be?

 

The OP was following established range protocol for THAT club under their range rule that, I'm guessing, is in place to prevent the MDQ for "any discharge at the loading/unloading areas".

IF that is the reasoning behind the method required to "show clear" on the line, then it stands to reason that the club considers a discharge going safely downrange (expected or not) is not an unsafe act subject to any penalty

[Yusta B.]

Never mind already covered.

 

[Outlaw Gambler]

From another view, when I time I consider my job as one of safety director. IE watching where shooter is aiming (in general), 170 rule, not traveling with cocked guns, and most importantly counting the rounds fired with each gun. It is my job as a timer to know how many rounds are required in each gun for the stage and to ensure that the same amount of rounds are fired or jacked out live before allowing the shooter to go to next gun. I have to ASSUME that the people on the loading table did their job to ensure the proper number of rounds were loaded. This being the case and the stage called for 10 rifle rounds, and only 9 were fired and no live ones jacked out, I would have instructed the shooter that there was a round left. If the shooter worked the action and couldn't "find" the round I will hand off the rifle to someone to take to the unloading table.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

For some reason lately I've been working action on my rifle a couple of times as I retrieve my rifle, not a bad idea

 

AO