Club Rule

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

I have to ASSUME that the people on the loading table did their job to ensure the proper number of rounds were loaded.

Not to hijack the thread here, and not to be contentious, just curious, but you're saying that you're expecting someone at the loading table to count how many rounds each person loads into each of his/her firearms? Isn't that kind of hard to do if you've got more than one person loading at a time, which is generally how it goes around here?

 

Again, just curious...

[Titus A. Gnatsass, SASS #71705]

From another view, when I time I consider my job as one of safety director. IE watching where shooter is aiming (in general), 170 rule, not traveling with cocked guns, and most importantly counting the rounds fired with each gun. It is my job as a timer to know how many rounds are required in each gun for the stage and to ensure that the same amount of rounds are fired or jacked out live before allowing the shooter to go to next gun. I have to ASSUME that the people on the loading table did their job to ensure the proper number of rounds were loaded. This being the case and the stage called for 10 rifle rounds, and only 9 were fired and no live ones jacked out, I would have instructed the shooter that there was a round left. If the shooter worked the action and couldn't "find" the round I will hand off the rifle to someone to take to the unloading table.

 

I agree with your explanation given. However, in the OP, although not completely spelled out, it sounds as if the correct number of rounds were not loaded into the rifle (one extra) and the correct number of rounds were fired. This is where the R.O. would be 'comfortable' with the shooter having emptied the rifle (correct number of rounds fired). That is why it is good practice to always cycle the rifle action a couple of times and visually inspect for a round in the gun. Not sure I like the "closing the lever and pulling the trigger (range rule) to show clear" club rule, but if that is what they require, it must be followed. Again, in your post you suspect that there is a round left in the rifle due to you only counting 9 rounds fired on a 10 round stage. It should always be assumed that there is a round left in any firearm until proven otherwise. That's why all firearms should be treated as loaded from the time they are loaded at the Loading Table until they have been cleared and deemed 'safe' at the Unloading Table.

[Titus A. Gnatsass, SASS #71705]

Not to hijack the thread here, and not to be contentious, just curious, but you're saying that you're expecting someone at the loading table to count how many rounds each person loads into each of his/her firearms? Isn't that kind of hard to do if you've got more than one person loading at a time, which is generally how it goes around here?

 

Again, just curious...

 

If I am working the Loading Table I do not let but one shooter load at a time. You are correct, it is hard, and thus not SAFE, in my opinion. Might make some shooters mad, but as the Loading Table attendant, I will not compromise. If the club or someone else overrules me, I walk.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

From another view, when I time I consider my job as one of safety director. IE watching where shooter is aiming (in general), 170 rule, not traveling with cocked guns, and most importantly counting the rounds fired with each gun. It is my job as a timer to know how many rounds are required in each gun for the stage and to ensure that the same amount of rounds are fired or jacked out live before allowing the shooter to go to next gun. I have to ASSUME that the people on the loading table did their job to ensure the proper number of rounds were loaded.

This would also be assuming that there is a LTO on duty at the loading table to observe the shooter.

 

This being the case and the stage called for 10 rifle rounds, and only 9 were fired and no live ones jacked out, I would have instructed the shooter that there was a round left.

If the shooter worked the action and couldn't "find" the round I will hand off the rifle to someone to take to the unloading table.

Why would the T/O be "handing off" the shooter's rifle? Why not follow standard procedure and notify the ULTO as the shooter takes his own rifle to the unloading area to be cleared?

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

 

If I am working the Loading Table I do not let but one shooter load at a time. You are correct, it is hard, and thus not SAFE, in my opinion. Might make some shooters mad, but as the Loading Table attendant, I will not compromise. If the club or someone else overrules me, I walk.

At Winter Range, for example, there are as many as four people loading at the same time, in order to keep the flow of the match on schedule. That makes it pretty much impossible for anyone but the shooter to count how many rounds he/she puts in the firearm in question. And isn't it, after all, the shooter's responsibility to have the correct number of rounds, per stage instructions, at the loading table and loaded into the proper firearm?

 

Again, I'm just curious. I know that different clubs in different parts of the country have different protocols for this sort of thing...

[Titus A. Gnatsass, SASS #71705]

At Winter Range, for example, there are as many as four people loading at the same time, in order to keep the flow of the match on schedule. That makes it pretty much impossible for anyone but the shooter to count how many rounds he/she puts in the firearm in question. And isn't it, after all, the shooter's responsibility to have the correct number of rounds, per stage instructions, at the loading table and loaded into the proper firearm?

 

Again, I'm just curious. I know that different clubs in different parts of the country have different protocols for this sort of thing..

 

If there is a need for more than one person to be loading at one time, I personally see no need for a LT officer/attendant. If you are talking about more than one shooter loaded and ready to shoot at the LT, then, yes I witness that all the time. However (again, my opinion) it shouldn't take any shooter longer to load than it takes a shooter to be called to the line, shoot and then have the T.O. ready the line for the next shooter, therefore, never a need for more than one person loading at a time.

 

And to your point regarding it ultimately being the shooters responsibility to have the correct number of rounds loaded, yes it is. But I have been victim to, and seen it happen to others as well, a shooter not loading the correct number of rounds. It happened while I was working the LT and allowed more than one shooter to load at a time. The stage called for 9 rifle and the shooter had loaded 10. After the shooter received the earned penalty, he informed me that I had just cost him a clean match! And, yes, he was serious. So if I work the LT, it's one at a time or not at all. If I have my choice, I'll pick up brass, spot, run the timer, or work the ULT. All day long. LT is my least favorite job, but I'll do it if needed. Hope I don't seen like I'm being obstinate, I believe most folks would call me an easy going pard. But in this case I feel past experience and the focus on safety warrants my feelings.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Remember: The primary responsibility always rests with the competitor. Shooters should always know the condition of their firearms and should never depend upon the Loading and Unloading Officers to ensure their firearms are correctly loaded and unloaded. The Loading and Unloading Officers are simply an added measure of safety. A competitor may never blame the Loading Officer for an incorrectly loaded firearm, and at no time will this claim be considered grounds for dismissal of penalties.

RO1 p.10

[Hoss]

LTO Blues!

 

I go to a largish annual match every year where club rules require an LTO, and only one person loading at a time. Last month while loading pistols I had a high primer, pulled it out, replaced it. When I got to the line shot first pistol 5 times, second 4 times and a click ran it around again. still click. reloaded one from my belt, and shot it. went to unloading table, thinking I had a dud round, discovered I had somehow only loaded 4. I guess I never got around to replacing that high primer round. TO was fine with what I did. One of the spotters thought it was a MSV for reloading one from my belt. He then went on to say I could have had a live round under the hammer of that pistol, and should have grounded it. I told him no way there was a live round under the hammer as I had just shot the last round in the pistol. He kept arguing that I could not know where the live round was. (in this case, no dud round was in the gun, as I had only originally loaded 4) I told him true, I did not know where the live round was, but I knew where it wasn't which was under the hammer. He did not believe it was OK to reload a dud round. In the end, no penalty was given (other than all the time it took to go around, then load another round) Long story short, even with a loading officer watching, its easy to make a mistake at the loading table, which is why the ULT is so important.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

LTO Blues!

 

I go to a largish annual match every year where club rules require an LTO, and only one person loading at a time. Last month while loading pistols I had a high primer, pulled it out, replaced it. When I got to the line shot first pistol 5 times, second 4 times and a click ran it around again. still click. reloaded one from my belt, and shot it. went to unloading table, thinking I had a dud round, discovered I had somehow only loaded 4. I guess I never got around to replacing that high primer round. TO was fine with what I did. One of the spotters thought it was a MSV for reloading one from my belt. He then went on to say I could have had a live round under the hammer of that pistol, and should have grounded it. I told him no way there was a live round under the hammer as I had just shot the last round in the pistol. He kept arguing that I could not know where the live round was. (in this case, no dud round was in the gun, as I had only originally loaded 4) I told him true, I did not know where the live round was, but I knew where it wasn't which was under the hammer. He did not believe it was OK to reload a dud round. In the end, no penalty was given (other than all the time it took to go around, then load another round) Long story short, even with a loading officer watching, its easy to make a mistake at the loading table, which is why the ULT is so important.

Hoss, that spotter needs a lesson from the handbooks.

[Titus A. Gnatsass, SASS #71705]

RO1 p.10

 

Remember: The primary responsibility always rests with the competitor. Shooters should always know the condition of their firearms and should never depend upon the Loading and Unloading Officers to ensure their firearms are correctly loaded and unloaded. The Loading and Unloading Officers are simply an added measure of safety. A competitor may never blame the Loading Officer for an incorrectly loaded firearm, and at no time will this claim be considered grounds for dismissal of penalties.

PW...I totally agree with this rule. But as I stated, whether a shooter knows the rules (and they should) or not, they can still have the perception in their mind that it is, even if only partially, the LTO's fault that they made a mistake. And for that reason, I usually try not to work the LT if possible, choosing instead one of the other posse duties.

[Hoss]

Hoss, that spotter needs a lesson from the handbooks.

Yup.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

 

If I am working the Loading Table I do not let but one shooter load at a time. You are correct, it is hard, and thus not SAFE, in my opinion. Might make some shooters mad, but as the Loading Table attendant, I will not compromise. If the club or someone else overrules me, I walk.

When I attended my first shoot, there was no loading table officer, so I asked the shooter in front of me to inspect my pistols for to confirm they were properly loaded. This person had been shooting CAS long before SASS, was a war hero, had been shooting his whole live, started a couple of the major shoots we all love today, and honored by SASS. He looked at me and said son, if you do not know how to properly load your firearms, you should unload them and go home or somewhere else and learn to properly load them and then come back to shoot another day. I learned really quickly it was my responsibility to load my guns correctly and pay the penalties if I screwed up so take the time to do it right the first time.

 

In our neck of the woods we do not use loading table oversight. If I find a club that has a loading table officer that insists on only one shooter loading at a time, or attempts to count my rounds, is talking to shooters loading, or insists I take my rounds out of my loading strips and put them into a club provided loading block, I either leave immediately or never return.

 

A few years ago, I was posse marshal at a major shoot warm up day and had a member of the Wild Bunch in my posse. He was quite upset we did not have loading table officers. On the first stage he was first in line and I was second. He told me he insisted that I check his guns to see that they were properly loaded. I told him the same advice I got at my first shoot. He finally got another shooter to check his guns.

 

I am of the belief that if a shooter always leans on someone else to check his guns, he will lose some small amount of personal responsibility and diligence doing it correctly knowing someone else will catch his error.

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

I shoot at the same club. In addition to CAS I shoot other Action Range disciplines. The procedure is always the same. You drop the hammer before leaving the firing line. In most other disciplines, if the gun goes 'bang' your day is over - MDQ.

 

It's just the way it is in a big club. There are other rules that seem kind of over the top but they are the result of someone doing something people thought was impossible before it happened.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

I shoot at the same club. In addition to CAS I shoot other Action Range disciplines. The procedure is always the same. You drop the hammer before leaving the firing line. In most other disciplines, if the gun goes 'bang' your day is over - MDQ.

 

It's just the way it is in a big club. There are other rules that seem kind of over the top but they are the result of someone doing something people thought was impossible before it happened.

Do you have to clear your revolvers and shotgun on the line? And then go to the unloading table? Just curious.

[Titus A. Gnatsass, SASS #71705]

When I attended my first shoot, there was no loading table officer, so I asked the shooter in front of me to inspect my pistols for to confirm they were properly loaded. This person had been shooting CAS long before SASS, was a war hero, had been shooting his whole live, started a couple of the major shoots we all love today, and honored by SASS. He looked at me and said son, if you do not know how to properly load your firearms, you should unload them and go home or somewhere else and learn to properly load them and then come back to shoot another day. I learned really quickly it was my responsibility to load my guns correctly and pay the penalties if I screwed up so take the time to do it right the first time.

 

In our neck of the woods we do not use loading table oversight. If I find a club that has a loading table officer that insists on only one shooter loading at a time, or attempts to count my rounds, is talking to shooters loading, or insists I take my rounds out of my loading strips and put them into a club provided loading block, I either leave immediately or never return.

 

A few years ago, I was posse marshal at a major shoot warm up day and had a member of the Wild Bunch in my posse. He was quite upset we did not have loading table officers. On the first stage he was first in line and I was second. He told me he insisted that I check his guns to see that they were properly loaded. I told him the same advice I got at my first shoot. He finally got another shooter to check his guns.

 

I am of the belief that if a shooter always leans on someone else to check his guns, he will lose some small amount of personal responsibility and diligence doing it correctly knowing someone else will catch his error.

 

GCK, I share your opinion of the LTO. I don't think we need them. That being said, some clubs and in some cases, some T.O.'s/R.O.'s insist on having them. Again, if at all possible, I don't work the LT. If I must, that's when I insist on one at a time. Again, we are all responsible for our own actions. I do agree that if used, they add an additional measure of safety, but one I don't feel is necessary. If I'm at the LT without a LTO and a shooter asks me to verify their guns I'll do so, but I won't ask another shooter to do it for me.

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

Do you have to clear your revolvers and shotgun on the line? And then go to the unloading table? Just curious.

No sir, only the rifle.

[Blastmaster]

No sir, only the rifle.

Do you have to reclear the rifle at the ULT?

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

Do you have to reclear the rifle at the ULT?

Yes sir, just as a safety precaution.

[Blastmaster]

Yes sir, just as a safety precaution.

Thank you.

[Randingo]

In the 80's when I was shooting High Power Rifle we used a Chamber Safety Flag. It's a plastic device designed to slide into the chamber and is visible from several feet. With it in the rifle, there can be no cartridge chambered.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Went back to the rifle to show clear by closing the lever and pulling the trigger (range rule) to show clear. Guess what, BANG goes the rifle. Scared the livin peawater right out of me. I found the missing round.

Next time unload everything when rounds go "missing." At least then you're sure of where they aren't.

Might be a good idea to look in the chamber before pulling the trigger as it tends to cut back on accidental discharges. It wasn't anything but an accidental discharge. I'm glad you're okay. I hope you can see how out of control you were in this case and learn from it. That's a MDQ anywhere else but SASS. Your club rule got you an AD on top of a MSV.

Respectfully, one who has been there.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Next time unload everything when rounds go "missing." At least then you're sure of where they aren't.

Might be a good idea to look in the chamber before pulling the trigger as it tends to cut back on accidental discharges. It wasn't anything but an accidental discharge. I'm glad you're okay. I hope you can see how out of control you were in this case and learn from it. That's a MDQ anywhere else but SASS. Your club rule got you an AD on top of a MSV.

Respectfully, one who has been there.

 

Please ref: post #27.

 

The "club rule", IIRC, was in response to an incident in which a long gun was not cleared at the ULT...round went off in the parking area as the shooter was putting firearms in vehicle to go home after the match.

 

BTW - We really don't care how various practices are handled "anywhere else".

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

 

Please ref: post #27.

 

The "club rule", IIRC, was in response to an incident in which a long gun was not cleared at the ULT...round went off in the parking area as the shooter was putting firearms in vehicle to go home after the match.

 

BTW - We really don't care how various practices are handled "anywhere else".

Thanks, PaleWolf

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

 

Please ref: post #27.

 

The "club rule", IIRC, was in response to an incident in which a long gun was not cleared at the ULT...round went off in the parking area as the shooter was putting firearms in vehicle to go home after the match.

 

BTW - We really don't care how various practices are handled "anywhere else".

+1000

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Personal responsibility and LTO resentment aside, the rule is the rule. It is not a bad practice. When you know you have to show someone the condition of your guns, then you'll most likely double check yourself to make certain it's right before you do. The checking is redundant, but what's the harm in that? Every club has a little different approach, so roll with it and enjoy the match.

 

CR

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

 

Please ref: post #27.

 

The "club rule", IIRC, was in response to an incident in which a long gun was not cleared at the ULT...round went off in the parking area as the shooter was putting firearms in vehicle to go home after the match.

 

BTW - We really don't care how various practices are handled "anywhere else".

So does this club feel the SASS rules are inadequate or unsafe?

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

So does this club feel the SASS rules are inadequate or unsafe?

No sir, this club is a large multi faceted gun club, and once the "incident" happened, that rule was put in place. For everyone's safety it is a good rule. Nuff said.

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

No sir, this club is a large multi faceted gun club, and once the "incident" happened, that rule was put in place. For everyone's safety it is a good rule. Nuff said.

Keep in mind that this club has something North of 5,000 members with varying levels of shooting experience and skill. Picture a conversation with a shooter who asks if a .45 ACP bullet is bigger than a .22. Yup, it happened.

 

Safety rules need to be at the level of the lowest common denominator. That turns out to be a very low standard.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

I should have realized that the AD didn't matter. Sorry for mentioning it.

[Gawd Awful]

Keep in mind that this club has something North of 5,000 members with varying levels of shooting experience and skill. Picture a conversation with a shooter who asks if a .45 ACP bullet is bigger than a .22. Yup, it happened.

 

Safety rules need to be at the level of the lowest common denominator. That turns out to be a very low standard.

The parent gun club has a lot of specific rules for all of its different areas, and all of the "action shooting sports" that shoot there, both for the shooters, during and after a stage, as well as rules for match directors and how they can set up stages. Some areas of the facility even have specific rules on how you remove guns from, and return guns to your car.

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

When I attended my first shoot, there was no loading table officer, so I asked the shooter in front of me to inspect my pistols for to confirm they were properly loaded. This person had been shooting CAS long before SASS, was a war hero, had been shooting his whole live, started a couple of the major shoots we all love today, and honored by SASS. He looked at me and said son, if you do not know how to properly load your firearms, you should unload them and go home or somewhere else and learn to properly load them and then come back to shoot another day. I learned really quickly it was my responsibility to load my guns correctly and pay the penalties if I screwed up so take the time to do it right the first time.

 

In our neck of the woods we do not use loading table oversight. If I find a club that has a loading table officer that insists on only one shooter loading at a time, or attempts to count my rounds, is talking to shooters loading, or insists I take my rounds out of my loading strips and put them into a club provided loading block, I either leave immediately or never return.

 

A few years ago, I was posse marshal at a major shoot warm up day and had a member of the Wild Bunch in my posse. He was quite upset we did not have loading table officers. On the first stage he was first in line and I was second. He told me he insisted that I check his guns to see that they were properly loaded. I told him the same advice I got at my first shoot. He finally got another shooter to check his guns.

 

I am of the belief that if a shooter always leans on someone else to check his guns, he will lose some small amount of personal responsibility and diligence doing it correctly knowing someone else will catch his error.

I have been shooting for over 60 years, not quite my whole life. I have been in a war, whether I am a hero is debatable. I have been an instructor at the 5th Army NCO academy. In short, I have been around the block a couple of times. I have also seen some VERY EXPERIENCED people MAKE MISTAKES. I believe that I know how to load my firearms properly and safely, but if I ever get so arrogant that I resent someone helping me be sure that I am being safe it will be time for me to sell my guns and sit in a rocking chair on the front porch so that I don't hurt somebody.

 

Duffield

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

I have been shooting for over 60 years, not quite my whole life. I have been in a war, whether I am a hero is debatable. I have been an instructor at the 5th Army NCO academy. In short, I have been around the block a couple of times. I have also seen some VERY EXPERIENCED people MAKE MISTAKES. I believe that I know how to load my firearms properly and safely, but if I ever get so arrogant that I resent someone helping me be sure that I am being safe it will be time for me to sell my guns and sit in a rocking chair on the front porch so that I don't hurt somebody.

 

Duffield

Well said.

[Griff]

No comment. An LTO is an ounce of prevention, whereas the ULTO is several tons. Neither is worth a tinker's dam if not done properly. I don't mind LTOs, if they're halfway respectful and know what they're about. But, when they tell me I have to have the barrel of my '51 pointed down, while I charge the cylinder (no charging away from the loading table), or tell me I can't load my Colt with the time proven 'load 1, skip one, load four, pull the hammer back and then the trigger', I'll just wait until they ain't at the loading table.

 

As for cycling the action on the rifle on the line and pulling the trigger, it's a false sense of security. Murphy was an optimist. I'll bet that before the century is out, there'll be another parking lot discharge.

[Titus A. Gnatsass, SASS #71705]

No comment. An LTO is an ounce of prevention, whereas the ULTO is several tons. Neither is worth a tinker's dam if not done properly. I don't mind LTOs, if they're halfway respectful and know what they're about. But, when they tell me I have to have the barrel of my '51 pointed down, while I charge the cylinder (no charging away from the loading table), or tell me I can't load my Colt with the time proven 'load 1, skip one, load four, pull the hammer back and then the trigger', I'll just wait until they ain't at the loading table.

 

As for cycling the action on the rifle on the line and pulling the trigger, it's a false sense of security. Murphy was an optimist. I'll bet that before the century is out, there'll be another parking lot discharge.

 

Well said Griff!

[Paladin Gun For Hire]

No comment. An LTO is an ounce of prevention, whereas the ULTO is several tons. Neither is worth a tinker's dam if not done properly. I don't mind LTOs, if they're halfway respectful and know what they're about. But, when they tell me I have to have the barrel of my '51 pointed down, while I charge the cylinder (no charging away from the loading table), or tell me I can't load my Colt with the time proven 'load 1, skip one, load four, pull the hammer back and then the trigger', I'll just wait until they ain't at the loading table.

 

As for cycling the action on the rifle on the line and pulling the trigger, it's a false sense of security. Murphy was an optimist. I'll bet that before the century is out, there'll be another parking lot discharge

Griff,

You may be right about it happening again, but at least it puts another step in the process making sure the gun is clear.