rippin kid Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Stage begins with, "Starts with Shotgun in any Safe Position" In the last two weekends I have shot a match in two states Maryland and Ohio, both had a stage that started with this line. Both had very different descriptions of what this means. What does it mean in your state, or club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 What it sez- OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 At EOT the used in hands or at low ready but based on the op directions I would say in hands would be the equivalent phrase and that allows the gun shouldered both hand on it no ammo in gun or hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 If no further info was provided as to starting position I would tend to assume that shotgun could be in hands. However it could be that the stage writer meant 'staged anywhere safely.' Around here stages are written specifying where guns are staged, and if the first gun is in hand which position, low ready, port arms, etc. or just 'in hands.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Actually, it ONLY means that you start with your SG. Position becomes irrelevant when worded as you stated. UNLESSSSSSS, someone has changed the definition of 'ANY' since Friday... This is just my opinion. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korupt Karl Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 When it says "safe" position and nothing more it simply means it can be staged anywhere with the barrel in a safe direction and or in hand or hands. Pretty much like it says. Some people like Widder would prefer to be at port arms as he practices it that way. Others like it on the shoulder, etc. It just gives people options and most will start with it in both hands, but some may want to start another way.... KK At the two shoots you went too, did anyone have to change how they started???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 When it says "safe" position and nothing more it simply means it can be staged anywhere with the barrel in a safe direction and or in hand or hands. Pretty much like it says. Some people like Widder would prefer to be at port arms as he practices it that way. Others like it on the shoulder, etc. It just gives people options and most will start with it in both hands, but some may want to start another way.... KK At the two shoots you went too, did anyone have to change how they started???? +1 Was there ANYTHING else in that, that could mean anything else. What else was written to go with it???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 at the clubs I've shot with that, FT Lauderdale for instance, you din't start with SG, but you cud place it anywhere you wanted,,,, most put it where it was to be used, I put it between the shooting position before it and where it was to be shot,,,, grabbing it along the way..... it's same as "make it safe", when they don't say exactly where you must make it safe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hi Rippin Kid, What I have seen is something like the four following instructions. SG safely staged open and empty, which means SG is on a prop, bale, or window sill. Sometimes the location for staging is named. SG at port arms. SG at the ready (can have SG up and sighted on target) SG at Cowboy Pose, which has butt on prop, one hand on hip, other hand holding gun upright. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Stage begins with, "Starts with Shotgun in any Safe Position" In the last two weekends I have shot a match in two states Maryland and Ohio, both had a stage that started with this line. Both had very different descriptions of what this means. What does it mean in your state, or club? Please tell us what were the two descriptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I would like to know where this description was in MD and what they meant by it as I live in MD. I would take it to mean just what it says. Safe posistion is wide open , in hand/hands or on a prop as long as no safety rules are being broke. So I would start with SG shouldered and left hand right over shells. If they wanted more they should have written more. MW Ok I know where you shot in MD so if you don't want to use the clubs name that's fine. But I don't think this says anything bad about them. I go there as often as posible and they are a great bunch of people. But I would like to know what each club meant by it because you say each was different. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Eldorado Cowboys use the term "IN HANDS" Firearm does not have to be held in a traditional manner and hands are not required to be in the expected or traditional placements. Simply firearm pointed in a safe direction with both hands in contact with firearm. Oh, and hands are those dangly things below your wrists - it is not required that the palms or fingers be in contact with the firearm - the back of your hand is still your hand. Opens up a lot of latitude for the shooter to utilize their preferred methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I think it means you can have the shotgun at the ready. I don't know if you can load it before the buzzer. Frankly, I think a smart cowboy would have asked the TO who would have probably asked for a clarification from the match director if one hadn't been given during the walk through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Eldorado Cowboys use the term "IN HANDS" Yes, I forgot that one. It would mean the same as "at the ready" and is probably even more common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Stage begins with, "Starts with Shotgun in any Safe Position" In the last two weekends I have shot a match in two states Maryland and Ohio, both had a stage that started with this line. Both had very different descriptions of what this means. What does it mean in your state, or club? Is shotgun the first gun. or are they talking about staging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Stage begins with, "Starts with Shotgun in any Safe Position" In the last two weekends I have shot a match in two states Maryland and Ohio, both had a stage that started with this line. Both had very different descriptions of what this means. What does it mean in your state, or club? To me that means start with shotgun in any safe postion As long as I'm not breaking the 170 or trying to balance it on my nose (unsafe gun handling) that should be considered safe Most clubs it means you can start with it on your shoulder, at low ready, port arms or any where you want it. However, I have shot at a couple of clubs that do not allow "Cowboy Port Arms" by range rule of not allowing any gun to have the muzzle pointed over the berm. At these clubs there are no shotgun clay poppers used They either use "Low Ready" or "In Hands" (not pointed over berm), most shooters start this one on the shoulder. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 "Start with Shot gun in any safe position" Poor stage instruction. Needs to be specific. Starting position should be the same for all shooters, not choose what you like best. Unfair advantage can be the result from such lack of specific instructions. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 "Start with Shot gun in any safe position" Poor stage instruction. Needs to be specific. Starting position should be the same for all shooters, not choose what you like best. Unfair advantage can be the result from such lack of specific instructions. RBK What might be unfair if everyone has the same options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 "Start with Shot gun in any safe position" Poor stage instruction. Needs to be specific. Starting position should be the same for all shooters, not choose what you like best. Unfair advantage can be the result from such lack of specific instructions. RBK Totally disagree. Same as. At The Ready. Which can be different places for different people. If the shooter gets to pick which they like best. Then everyone had the same choice. If some pick bad. Well. They should have paid more attention and picked better. Same as stages that let you pick which gun you start with. Not everyone does those the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I do not see what precludes it being shouldered with a double open with two in the chambers, or a 97 having hammer down with the action closed on an empty cylinder, assuming the SG is shot first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 "Start with Shot gun in any safe position" Poor stage instruction. Needs to be specific. Starting position should be the same for all shooters, not choose what you like best. Unfair advantage can be the result from such lack of specific instructions. RBK I write open ended features into my stages all the time...and I don't consider my stage instructions poor at all. Others may disagree...who knows as no one has ever said anything to me. What can be more "Fair" then letting a shooter use their imagination and build a plan of attack to a stage that bests suits them? In this case we are talking about a starting position (which sounds like nothing more then the common start "with shotgun in hand"), which is clear to me. Too me, the worse type of stages are those that try and control every aspect of the stage...like...sheep...baaaah! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I do not see what precludes it being shouldered with a double open with two in the chambers, or a 97 having hammer down with the action closed on an empty cylinder, assuming the SG is shot first. How about #4 of the SASS Stage Conventions. "Staged shotguns shall be open and empty." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 When the starting position is dictated by stage instructions, there will ALWAYS be some shooters who favor that particular position and there will always be others who favor a different starting postion. That is why some of your TOP stage writers will have variations of starting positions thru-out a match. When the stage instructions allow the shooter to start in a SAFE position and the shooter can decide how they prefer to start, my opinion is that the only advantage anyone might have is the person who has practiced their choice of start positions will have an advantage over a shooter who doesn't practice anything. Give me a shooter who has practiced a port-arms starting position and a shooter who has practiced a table pickup starting position for a few thousand rounds, and I'll suggest you break out the camera for some great entertainment and speed demonstrations. Give me a shooter who NEVER practices and it won't matter what starting position they choose, they will be at a disadvantage. This of course, is just my opinion. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I write open ended features into my stages all the time...and I don't consider my stage instructions poor at all. Others may disagree...who knows as no one has ever said anything to me. What can be more "Fair" then letting a shooter use their imagination and build a plan of attack to a stage that bests suits them? In this case we are talking about a starting position (which sounds like nothing more then the common start "with shotgun in hand"), which is clear to me. Too me, the worse type of stages are those that try and control every aspect of the stage...like...sheep...baaaah! Phantom + 1000000000000!! I get so tired of being spoonfed every step, every shot, every direction. Thanks, Phantom. I see the instructions from the original post as the shotgun could be staged here, there, vertical, horizontal. Anywhere, anyhow, as long as it's safe. Or if it's the first gun, like you said, in hand. Of course there is the other side to that coin. "One table for rifle and shotgun. One 4'x8' target, engage ten times with pistols, ten times with rifle and four times with shotgun. Don't end with the rifle." Half of the shooters won't have any clue what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 How about #4 of the SASS Stage Conventions. "Staged shotguns shall be open and empty." It is not staged if you have it in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 It is not staged if you have it in hand. Doesn't say in hand. OP said "Starts with Shotgun in any Safe Position" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checotah Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 How about #4 of the SASS Stage Conventions. "Staged shotguns shall be open and empty." Key word is "Staged". Stage direction does not specify staged, but allows "any safe position". In hand, open, with rounds in chamber is a safe position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Key word is "Staged". Stage direction does not specify staged, but allows "any safe position". In hand, open, with rounds in chamber is a safe position. So is in hand, loaded and closed! If I don't take more than one step, sweep anybody or drop it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 When we carry on conversatoins like this on the wire, where most everyone has some sense, I think how bad a day listening to Congress must be. Depends on what the definition of is is. Safe is safe. If the stage writer wanted limitations on what a shooter could do, beyond being safe, they should have/would have said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Have never seen or heard of such a start being used. Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 When we carry on conversatoins like this on the wire, where most everyone has some sense, I think how bad a day listening to Congress must be. Depends on what the definition of is is. Safe is safe. If the stage writer wanted limitations on what a shooter could do, beyond being safe, they should have/would have said so. +1000000000000000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 It is not staged if you have it in hand. Having the gun in hands negates that stage convention? I bet not. The convention was written so stage writers wouldn't have to specify "shotgun open and empty" in every scenario. So if a stage starts with SG on horse, shooters hands at sides, we all know the SG has to be open and empty. By your logic, if a scenario has the shooter starting with SG in hands, the shooter can put shells in it unless the stage writer specifically states that shotgun is "open and empty" That's a leap I'm unwilling to take unless clarified by the ROC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I would presume someone on the posse would ask for clarification and then I would know or ask myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Besides the Stage Convention that applies to STAGED shotguns, the following rules also apply to SHOTGUNS: 16. Shotguns are always staged open with magazine and chambers empty and are loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands. SHB p.24 • Pump and lever action shotguns are allowed to load no more than two live rounds at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. SHB p.12 This gives the stage writer the option of allowing the SG to be "in hand(s)"/loaded/cocked/& aimed at the targets waiting for the beep. There is also a provision that allows repeating SGs to have the magazines loaded with more than two rounds at a time...as long as the stage instructions specifically say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Besides the Stage Convention that applies to STAGED shotguns, the following rules also apply to SHOTGUNS: SHB p.24 SHB p.12 This gives the stage writer the option of allowing the SG to be "in hand(s)"/loaded/cocked/& aimed at the targets waiting for the beep. There is also a provision that allows repeating SGs to have the magazines loaded with more than two rounds at a time...as long as the stage instructions specifically say so. So can I load my double every time we start in hands or port arms unless stage writer specifies differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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