Black Powder in 45lc

[Tecate Slam 99188]

Given the current shortage of appropriate pistol powders for 45lc, I was thinking about loading up some 200gr bullets with black powder for my New Vaqueros. I have never shot black powder in a cartridge caliber before and so don't know where to begin. Can some of you Pardners give me some counsel?

 

Tecate

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

Lots of good info here: http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Fill the case with 3F/BP till when you seat the bullet you compress the powder 1/16-3/32".

Do not USE SMOKELESS LUBED BULLETS FOR bp.

Firm crimp and std primer.

Clean-up with Windex Multi-surface w/Vinegar.

Use Eezox for gun lube

Welcome to the 'dark-side'.

LG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Real BP will be slightly more work and slightly cheaper than the subs like APP and 777.

Stay away from Pyrodex, even if that is what your local gunshop clerk has tons of. It's hard to clean well enough and fast enough to avoid rust in all the places you don't want rust.

 

Real BP needs BP compatible bullet lube. Soft alloy bullets work better (BNH 9 or so) because BP does not produce high pressures like smokeless does.

 

Most any water-based cleaner will be good enough to clean with. Tons of possible "solutions." Soap and hot water are enough usually.

 

Revolvers will cause the most problems. Many Rugers and the Colt Clones will have a very tight barrel-to-cylinder gap that fills with BP fouling and guns get sticky and hard to cycle after about 3 or 4 stages. Clean that fouling with your cleaning solution on a rag between stages once in a while. The "easy" solution to a binding cylinder is to open the B-C gap to about 0.007 inch. Gunsmiths are able to do that very easily.

 

BP needs a black-powder compatible lube. Several qualify. I use Mobil-1 red wheel bearing grease where I need grease, and Rem Oil where I need oil, but carry a can of Ballistol spray for loosening up fouling in the field.

 

Figure out where you will clean at your house. Many spouses complain about the smell and the mess, so this might need to be a garage-outdoor shop-barn spot for best domestic harmony.

 

Soak your fired brass in a soapy water solution, then rinse till water is clean, before you dry and tumble to clean brass for loading again. Don't let your brass sit after a match for several days or it gets oxidized and can even corrode and weaken the brass.

 

BP is tons of fun. You will clean often, but cleanup is easy once you develop the drill, as you never have leading in barrels or cylinders to be scrubbed out.

 

Good luck, GK

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

You'll it!

 

GG ~

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

200 grainers should be fine in RNV's as long as you use enough soft lube. In rifles 45 Colt can be problematic as the cases tend to not seal well and you get lots of fouling in the works. One of the reasons 44-40 is the most popular BP cartridge, the brass is much thinner and the pressure lets it seal better. I have at least 5 sets of pistols I use for BP and I have never opened up the cylinder gap on any of them. Just use the proper bullet and things work fine. Lube is your friend with BP.

[Bull Skinner]

200 grainers should be fine in RNV's as long as you use enough soft lube. In rifles 45 Colt can be problematic as the cases tend to not seal well and you get lots of fouling in the works. One of the reasons 44-40 is the most popular BP cartridge, the brass is much thinner and the pressure lets it seal better. I have at least 5 sets of pistols I use for BP and I have never opened up the cylinder gap on any of them. Just use the proper bullet and things work fine. Lube is your friend with BP.

+1 My BP rifle caliber is 44-40 for the above reasons.

 

By the way, Slim makes some of the best BP lubed bullets you can buy.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

use 2f it is a bulkier powder and better for larger case loads. I use 2 f for 40 cal and larger and 3f for .38, App is a good sub, less recoil fill case and get a light compression with app. you can use a smokeless bullet without lube, if you use real black use lube to keep fouling soft

Rafe

[Amarillo Rattler]

PM sent.

 

Amarillo Rattler

[John Henry Quick]

+1 My BP rifle caliber is 44-40 for the above reasons.

 

By the way, Slim makes some of the best BP lubed bullets you can buy.

 

I +1 your +1 of his comments, plus I +1 your comment about his +1 bullets.

[Warden Callaway]

I took the plunge and shot the match earlier this month with 45 Colt in rifle, 45 C45S in handgun and 12 gauge. All were loaded with Graf & Sons FF black. The bullet was 200 grain RNFP cast and lubed with Lee Alox. The Cattleman revolvers are stock, unmodified for black powder laods. They held up and functioned with no binding. The cylinder bushings slipped right out and showed no fouling had migrated into the cylinder pin or bushing. The bore was cleaned with hot water. Shined like chrome on a Cadillac bumper.

[John Henry Quick]

Given the current shortage of appropriate pistol powders for 45lc, I was thinking about loading up some 200gr bullets with black powder for my New Vaqueros. I have never shot black powder in a cartridge caliber before and so don't know where to begin. Can some of you Pardners give me some counsel?

 

Tecate

 

I am a huge fan of real gunpowder - I've been using it in artillery and flintlock muskets for decades and I've just recently been shooting it in cartridge guns. I recommend nothing else for .44 WCF and other assorted BP cartridges, but I have to say that the fouling that was accumulating in my .45 Col '73 carbine was so heavy that I had to remove the sideplate, toggles, carrier and magazine spring/cap after each shoot in order to get it even reasonably clean. I tried a heavy crimp to no avail. The only other solution I've heard that sounds promising is to anneal the brass, but I admit that I did not try that.

 

After three stages, I found myself squirting Murphy's Mix onto the sides of the carrier to get the .45 going again, yet there's no evidence of fouling in my .44 after a full day of shooting - I run a boresnake through it and I'm done. The fouling in my .45 became such an annoyance that I have switched to APP (heaven forbid!) in .45 Colt. You may want to give APP a try, particularly if it's still on sale - no date was given for when the sale ends so it may not be too late.

 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225436&hl=

[Blackey Cole]

For APP you don't need the compression or special lubed bullets. Fill case so with bullet seated there is no air gap per makers, seat your bullet crimp and there you go. Reg primer is all that is needed. I use Amsoil mp and have no rust problems others use all sort of mixtures some have had problems with APP. But I've shot it since 2008 at least and find it the easiest to load, shoot and clean up after. I forgot once and didn't clean guns for three weeks and still no rust. I just soften residue and cleaned per normal. Used a couple extra patches is all.

 

I spray my guns smokeless or app with a technique I refer to as spray and store. I spray whichever gun down liberally with Amsoil MP and store in a gun sock. The gun usually comes out cleaner than when it went in. As I put the Gus away on the range. If bp I will normally spray and run patches thru the gun that pm or the next am and it take two to three patches for the rifle add one fo each pistol and the SG get additional two. The first is used to push out the garbage in the barrel clean patch each barrel the next gets soaked in Amsoil mp and is use to wet the bore the next two are used to clean and dry the bore. That easy.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I fill the case with 3F Real Black using a long drop-tube, seat the bullet so it compresses the powder about 1/16 of an inch , lube with SPG or Lyman Gold using 250 gr. bullets ... And I take-down my 66 about once a year to check on the inside parts and give it a scrub .

 

Don't seem to get must blow-bye into the action ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Rye Miles #13621]

I use 2F and fill the case to about 1/8" from the top and I use smokeless lubed bullets for my revolvers only. I am using a 200 gr. bullet in a .44-40 case.

 

Rye

[Wagon Box Willy]

There's no question that 44-40 is the better cartridge for BP in rifles but that doesnt mean you need to suffer with 45 Colt. I can shoot a complete match with my '60 or '66 without any lube when I use annealed cases and a tight crimp. I shoot only Big Lube J/P200 bullets.

 

This past weekend I was shooting some new once-fired brass and was having a hell of a time with the carrier seizing up on my Henry....then I remembered that none of it was annealed yet (note to self...which is why I had put a black "x" on the head)

 

Annealing is easy and as long as you dont overheate the case is safe. I've used two methods, a DIY "socket" for my drill and now my quicker method, a DIY fixture which allows me to rotate the case through the flames from two torches...takes about 4 seconds of flame time. You want to heat it only until the brass just discoulors...you do not want it to get red. Dimming the lights will help you assure you dont overheat it.

 

Also, you must clean the brass after annealing and before you put it through any of your reloading dies (in your wet or dry tumbler). The act of heating the brass precipitates the carbon (I believe) out and onto the surface of the brass and this WILL score your resizing die and ruin it...carbide or not! I know, I've done it.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

 

I am a huge fan of real gunpowder - I've been using it in artillery and flintlock muskets for decades and I've just recently been shooting it in cartridge guns. I recommend nothing else for .44 WCF and other assorted BP cartridges, but I have to say that the fouling that was accumulating in my .45 Col '73 carbine was so heavy that I had to remove the sideplate, toggles, carrier and magazine spring/cap after each shoot in order to get it even reasonably clean. I tried a heavy crimp to no avail. The only other solution I've heard that sounds promising is to anneal the brass, but I admit that I did not try that.

 

After three stages, I found myself squirting Murphy's Mix onto the sides of the carrier to get the .45 going again, yet there's no evidence of fouling in my .44 after a full day of shooting - I run a boresnake through it and I'm done. The fouling in my .45 became such an annoyance that I have switched to APP (heaven forbid!) in .45 Colt. You may want to give APP a try, particularly if it's still on sale - no date was given for when the sale ends so it may not be too late.

 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225436&hl=

Howdy JHQ. You might already know this, but a heavy bullet like a 230 or 250 grain helps a lot. I used to shoot a .45 '92 with a full case of BP and a 250 gr bullet and could shoot 5 stages without Murphy's Mix. The 200 grainers were another story -- filthy!

 

Good luck!

[Noz]

 

I +1 your +1 of his comments, plus I +1 your comment about his +1 bullets.

+1 I agree with that whole heartedly.

[Wagon Box Willy]

My experience is different than some. I tried both J/P200's and PRS250's in .452 and .454 with various crimps and the only thing that made a significant difference was annealing. So much so that I could stay with the 200's and save on some lead (and get more powder in the case as a bonus )

[John Boy]

OK Folks - let's not overdue it ... Grits said all there is to be known!

Shoot em straight and enjoy the smoke

[John Henry Quick]

Howdy JHQ. You might already know this, but a heavy bullet like a 230 or 250 grain helps a lot. I used to shoot a .45 '92 with a full case of BP and a 250 gr bullet and could shoot 5 stages without Murphy's Mix. The 200 grainers were another story -- filthy!

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks, but I've been shooting 250 grain Big Lube bullets - it didn't seem to make any difference for me. I do love the accuracy of those bullets!

[Tom Bullweed]

I shoot .45 Cowboy Specials (.45 Colt machined to .45 ACP length) that holds just enough BP/subs to make the powder requirement.

The rifle requires a lot of modifications, but these short rounds work great in pistols.

A fullhouse load of BP in a .45 Colt is a handful.

I like to shoot APP in the rifle since I use only bullets with standard lubes. The pistols have short barrels that do not generate the pressures found in the rifle, so I will shoot APP in the pistol or real BP if I am running low on APP.

[jrswanson1]

 

Thanks, but I've been shooting 250 grain Big Lube bullets - it didn't seem to make any difference for me. I do love the accuracy of those bullets!

 

Do you full-length resize the brass?

[John Henry Quick]

 

Do you full-length resize the brass?

 

Yup. I thought about only resizing the upper half, but I was concerned about feeding issues in the carbine.

[Wagon Box Willy]

http://www.brownells.com/reloading/reloading-dies/handgun-dies/dual-ring-carbide-sizing-dies-prod44072.aspx

[jrswanson1]

 

Yup. I thought about only resizing the upper half, but I was concerned about feeding issues in the carbine.

 

I tried the resize the first 1/2" of the cartridge with my .45 Colts and my Taurus Thunderbolt and my Winchester 94 and have not run into feeding issues. The way I resize them gives them a slight bottleneck, which helps feeding.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

 

Do you full-length resize the brass?

Every time--

LG

[Sierra Steve]

OK, so I'm new to BP equiv. But here's what I've tried in my new 58 Pieta with conversion cylinder: 205 g lead bullet, lowest load was 20 g (by weight) of Pyrodex P, Win large pistol primer, OAL 1.58 inches, brand new Starline 45 LC brass, one 1/8th inch and one card WAD to take up space and compress. I have no idea how to assess degree of compression - put lots of wear on my Lyman micrometer end stick to see how far down from case edge the powder was, then added the thickness of the WADs plus one sixteenth inch and just did it. (At least I think that was the end result.) Other loads I tried (same powder, primers, WADs and same new Starline brass) had 22 g Pyrodex, 24 g Pyrodex and 26 g Pryodex. A few had beeswax WADs. Couldn't tell difference between "dry" WAD and beeswax WAD. Out of twenty three rounds all except one when off as they were supposed to. The one that didn't go bang I figure either had no powder in the case (yeah, I know, but I thought I checked everyone of them before seating bullet) or somehow I did something with that one cartridge that stopped the powder from igniting. Bullet just cleared the gap and lodged in barrel. At least I was able to get the cylinder off and bang the bullet back out. As for differences in the amount of powder I think the 26 g Pryrodex P round was more than needed, especially for cowboy and was more noise than the others. Lots of smoke with all of them. The lightest loads (20 g Pyrodex by weight) grouped pretty well on a sandbag rest at cowboy distances (approx a 2 1/2 inch diameter circle) and landed a little low and left. Of course the pistol and me account for where the group goes, but with 22 g Pyrodex load the group was about the same but two inches higher on the target. So I decided to try a match with 23 g Pyrodex with my 205 g RNFP bullets with same same as to everything else. But I think I'll wait for a match when I've got all the rest of the day and the next morning to clean the pistol.

 

I just couldn't wrap my mind around submerging the whole pistol in really hot soapy water so i used dry copper bore brush (many many times) and lots (and lots) of dry cloth patches and still had some fouling near the chamber end of the barrel. Used some lead removing bore cleaner, more brushes, cloth patches and near the end I used good ol' Hoppe's No. 9. The cylinder wasn't nearly as hard to clean as the barrel (duh, no lead fouling there of course). When I got it clean I put RemOil all over everytthing. Checked the next day and the next - still clean. Hardest part of this project was figuring out how much Pryodex to use when it is said to be straight across BP equivalent by volume, but the only sure way to know how much powder you're putting in is to weigh it. In the end, I ignored BP recipes and just took advice as to weight for Pyrodex P which I found on a couple of web posts (and had in mind Pieta's warning to not exceed 35 g BP).

 

May I add one question for those with 58 Pieta's? Getting that conversion cylinder in and out of the frame is really tough. I am not sure my posse guys have so much patience that I can arm wrestle those conversion cylinders into and out of the frames at the loading and unloading tables. They usually want to go get lunch before 1:00 p.m. or so and wouldn't like to see me delay the match for an hour and half while I deal with those conversion cylinders for six stages. Is this problem common? Am I just a klutz in loading up conversion cylinders? Would an experienced smith know how to "fix" it, if it can be fixed? Should it be fixed? (I still want to use these for cap and ball sometimes just for fun using the OE percussion cylinders, plus I've a few hundred lead balls but alas, no percussion caps!)

[Blackey Cole]

With bp loading you'll find many ways ranging from the easy to the really anal. I use the easy way myself.

 

I use Amsoil MP and APP. The Amsoil MP bonds with the metal so it protects and cleans it. The APP is really simple and easy to load. Figure you load out then set your powder measure to dispense that load of powder. I run app thru a Dillon measure on my 550. Stage one deprives, full length sizes and primes the case, two bells the case and drops the powder, three seats the bullet( I use regular cowboy bullets) and stage four crimps the round with a lee factory crimp die then it's kicked out to the bib.

 

From the bin the round is examined and gauged then boxed.

 

I spray my guns throughly with Amsoil MP before returning them to their gun sock after shooting and cleaning. So I take the gun out shoot the bp rounds which make enough smoke and have fun during the match. If a gun starts to stick or bind I spray with Amsoil and it normally fixes it. For the SG I do brush and mop the chambers every stage so the shell jump out. Other wise unless it's C&B I don't need to worry about it, C&B I have my system for cleaning and charging on a stage. And my cleaning routine for afterwards during a match I normally wipe them with windex on a cloth rag or paper towel during and run a patch thru between days . Afterwards the frames and cylinders take a hot bath in a sonic cleaner from harbor freight. Back to the match and shooting bp. Afterwards I spray the guns down with Amsoil mp and return them to their socks and head home.

 

Normally it the next day I clean the guns usually to tire the day of the match especially a multi day match. I pull the shotgun out era kit down to three pieces the barrels the action and stock and the fore end stock. I put corks in the chamber end of the barrels and spray with windex with vinegar and set to soak upright. Next I remove the rifle and spray with either Amsoil or windex and run a wet patch trhru to knock out the big stuff. Next I might run a bruch thru if it looks like its needs usually not I run another patch and it come out almost clean another wet patch followed by a dry one and the last comes out clean. Wipe down the bolt and carrier then a liberal spraying with Amsoil mp and back to the sock.

 

Now grab the shotgun barrels we have soaking and a walmart bag pour the crap out of the barrels in to the bag. Remove the corks. From chamber end push a wet patch thru one of the barrels with the muzzle end over or in the bag. Push all the way through an fleet everything fall in the bag.do the same with the other barrel. Now take a new patch and wet it with ?MP. Run it thru one of the barrels, grab the patch flip it over and push thru the other barrel. Now put a new dry patch on the jag and push thru a barrel and flip and thru the other until it comes out clean. Then wipe the action down and reassemble shotgun. Spray liberally with mp and store in sock.

 

Now to the cartridge revolvers. Pull the cylinders out spray with MP run a wet patch followed by a dry patch through the barrels until clean. Then take a mob for the cylinder put a clean patch and push thru each chamber. Reassemble gun, spray liberally with MP and return to sock, repeat for second revolver.

 

There you go the easy route

Loading

Shooting

Cleaning

 

Real easy any question just ask