Rules Question on Spirit of the Game

[Null N. Void]

I think this was probably covered, but I don't remember the results. At a match last week, there were two different thoughts on how to score it.

 

Here's the scenerio. Three pistol targets. With first 5 shots, shoot a Nevada Sweep starting on the middle target. Sweep can go in either direction. With second 5 shots, follow the directions for the first 5 shots.

 

The shooter did the first 5 fine. On the second five, he started on the wrong target, realized he made a mistake and had incurred a P, and dumped the remaining 4 pistol rounds on the same target he started with. He was told by a very good shooter that this was the way to shoot a stage when you make a mistake. This was a fairly new shooter.

 

Is it a P, or a P and a Spirit of the Game?

 

Remember to be smile when you write a response. I want to give a new shooter an good answer so he/she does not get a SOG at bigger match.

 

South Buffalo Slim

[Jack N. Water]

"CLEAN" AND A "P"

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Never seen anyone shoot a "P" for a competitive advantage. "SHOULD" he have cowboyed up and shot the others...well... probably, but he still had to hit the 'correct type' target.

 

"P"

 

Next shooter

[Madd Mike #8595]

honor and integrity would have kept me-own self from doing such a thang,

new shooter or not,

good / bad advice or not

mileage will always vary

[Grizzly Dave]

Just a P in my mind, though I would have gotten back on track while joking that I should have just dumped.

 

For reference, here is what the RO I has to say

 

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME
30-Second Penalty
• Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a
competitive advantage.
• Shooting ammunition that does not meet the power factor, minimum velocity. The
penalty is applied for each stage a competitor is checked and their ammunition is found
not to meet the power factor or minimum velocity.
• Willfully refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite or otherwise make an attempt
to complete any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions.
Note: Two Spirit of the Game or Failure to Engage penalties will result in a Match
Disqualification.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

in some quarters that will get you a SOG for taking an unfair competitive advantage after he P'ed.

 

Palewolf?

[Anvil Al #59168]

 

honor and integrity would have kept me-own self from doing such a thang,

new shooter or not,

good / bad advice or not

mileage will always vary

 

 

 

Feel the same way.

 

I may not shoot the rest of it exactly as intended. (because by that time I have forgot what it was)

Will do my best to shoot it as close to what was to be as possible.

But that is just me.

[Waimea]

Usually when I "P" on a stage the reason is because I have completely lost my way.

 

Happened a couple weeks ago.

 

When that happens I either go into dump or sweep mode.

Usually dump.

It ain't because of trying to make up the time.

The damage is already done.

 

Most TO's around here won't even tell you which target to shoot after you've had your "P" cuz you can't get back on track.

 

When I was a newbie shooter one of the top shooters told me you can only get one "P" per stage so just dump the rest.

 

Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a
competitive advantage.

 

Most shooters I know after they've gotten a "P" are just trying to finish the stage with whatever dignity they have left.

There ain't no WILLFULL-ness about it.

 

I think the WORST thing you could do to a new shooter is give them a SOG.

 

Mileage in your part of the country may vary (greatly).

 

 

Waimea (smiling, cuz I remember being a new shooter)

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

but, I betcha he wunt du it agin!!!

 

shooting the stage other than intended to gain an unfair advantage.....

 

that's how I teach it, if you p, DO NOT try to dump.....

 

new shooter or not, teach them to do it right!

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

When a shooter screws up a target order and clearly is headed for a P, many times their head is suddenly brain dead temporarily. Unless the TO tells him the sequence, and coaches him or her through it, many times the shooter just dumps the rest of the rounds to avoid misses. Only if the RO coached the shooter through the rest of the sequence vocally and the shooter still dumped on one, only then would I consider a SOG. As an RO I would tread lightly on SOG, and give the shooter the benefit of the doubt most times especially if the shooter is new as in the OP.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

in some quarters that will get you a SOG for taking an unfair competitive advantage after he P'ed.

 

Palewolf?

 

Yes, it could...depending on the shooter's response to the pertinent question to determine INTENT (which is a primary component of the "SOG" violation)

..."WHY did you do that?"

 

FWIW - The ONLY SOG penalty I've ever assessed on a shooter was for DUMPING on the biggest target available after getting a "P"...he'd also holstered his first revolver after only firing 4 shots; had to redraw & fire the 5th round...then went "out of category" by DUMPING with the 2nd revolver using BOTH HANDS in a Duelist category.

When he told me he did it to "make up the time for the "P"...I really had no choice...IMO.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

in some quarters that will get you a SOG for taking an unfair competitive advantage after he P'ed.

 

Palewolf?

This WTC has come up to at least 5 pages before. No one shoots a "P" to a competitive advantage. Yes, for some the big fantasy is 'what would john wayne do' WWJWD.... but for others it's "What would Al SWEARENGEN DO?" WWASD?

 

Both are cowboy characters...so the whole 'cowboy way' argument is cute .... but you can't find it in the rule books. Especially a new shooter who may be so lost as to make a safety error and make it worse.

 

The answer is....I WAS SO LOST I COULDN"T REMEMBER WHAT TO DO.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

This WTC has come up to at least 5 pages before. No one shoots a "P" to a competitive advantage.

In the case I cited, the shooter went on from the first "P" to commit at least three more that he KNEW couldn't be called on him.

He dumped the 2nd revolver on the LARGE (3x2) target instead of the MUCH smaller ones (the large target was in the middle of each of the two 5-shot sweeps)

...

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

In the words of Coyote Calhoun upon hearing from the shooter what he'd done (appealed to him as the MD):

 

"That's a classic example of a "Spirit of the Game" penalty."

[Widder, SASS #59054]

The funny scenerio is when the shooter shoots the first 5 rounds correctly but he/she think they messed up and earned a 'P'.

 

THEN, to make up alittle time, they decide to dump the remaining 5 shots. And actually earn a 'P'.

 

HAR, HAR, HAR!

 

And NO, I haven't witnessed such an occurance but I have heard a couple shooters tell me that they thought they earned a 'P' during the rifle run and 'thought' about dumping with pistols but realized it was not the right thing to do and finished the stage correctly.

 

 

..........Widder

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I'd AGREE....since we don't have to guess the shooter's INTENT in this example. However, if a shooter is lost then the best course is to NOT MAKE IT WORSE. and I would wholeheartedly disagree that the shooter in that instance shouldn't take full advantage of a dump target "correct type" in the middle of the string.

[Waimea]

We've been down this road before and the answer in the end was:

 

What was the shooter's INTENT?

 

That question must be asked and answered before the penalty is applied (hopefully sparingly).

 

 

Waimea

 

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

INTENT!..... SOG is the ONLY penalty that depends on the shooter's INTENT.

 

All the rest of them can't be dependent on INTENT since no shooter has ever INTENDED to shoot a "P"; leave a round on a carrier; have a gun fall out of a prop; miss a target and hit the wrong/ correct type target....etc. etc. etc.

 

So when you are totally lost; forget what the heck the stage description is; can't hear the TO or get so flustered that you can't remember what you're doing with a gun in your hand; DON'T MAKE IT WORSE.

[Krazy Kajun]

Usually when I "P" on a stage the reason is because I have completely lost my way.

 

 

yadda yadda a bunch of other stuff..

Dang Waimea......why don't you ask whar the outhouse is a'fore ya commence ta shootin' :D

 

Kajun(what recently shot his first WB match and on the first stage shot the KD shotgun targets wif his rifle)

[Augustus Goodnight]

SBS, from what you wrote:

 

The first incorrect target engaged was accidental - Plain ole' "P".

 

Where I have a problem is the remaining 4 shots of the second pistol. He didn't even try to get back on pattern. From what you posted he didn’t even make an honest attempt at it. He intentionally dumped to mitigate the penalty he knew he already had coming knowing it can only be assessed once per stage.

 

• Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a
competitive advantage.

 

In this case it was not to gain advantage but to regain the time lost to a legitimate penalty by willfully repeating the same penalty until the pistol was empty.

 

That’s like turning short of second base and heading for third because you know you’re about to be tagged out. In my book that horse don’t run. This is all too close to the “Win at any Cost” mentality I despise.

 

Play by the rules or the Game is nothing. And, that is just what this is, a Game. In this case I think he willfully broke the spirit of the Rule, thus the Spirit of the Game.

 

I'd give him a SoG and I'd expect nothing less if I did anything of the sort.

 

My $0.02

[Waimea]

Dang Waimea......why don't you ask whar the outhouse is a'fore ya commence ta shootin' :D

 

Kajun(what recently shot his first WB match and on the first stage shot the KD shotgun targets wif his rifle)

 

YEE-HAA, Kajun,

 

When you lose your way you do it with style!

 

Can't say I've ever shot a SG knockdown with a rifle.

 

Betcha there was some mighty surprised Pards.

 

Far as the outhouse goes... I prefer to water the trees.

kidding

 

 

Waimea

 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

 

 

I'd give him a SoG and I'd expect nothing less if I did anything of the sort.

 

My $0.02

 

I'd be more inclined ta give him the "P" he earned..

and maybe visit with him a little bit afterwards about what could have been called on him ...

If he told me an experienced shooter told him to do this..

Might have a slight visit with that shooter also..

KInda' like.. yeah.. it ain't wrong... but it's not quite right ta me..

 

 

We had a fella get out of sequence on a Nevada sweep just this weekend...

About 4 people on the posse hollered "Free Style"

Shooter didn't even know he was out of sequence...

 

Rance

Thinkin' sometimes a good visitin' is better than a SOG...

[Augustus Goodnight]

Ya' may be right Rance. I guess I come from that old school of the most painful lessons are ones best learned and longest remembered.

 

I pulled a "P" a couple of weeks back shooting a Regressive on two targets, second pistol should have been 2-2-1, I shot it 1-2-2. I knew I had done it the instant I pulled the trigger on the second shot, at the wrong target.

 

I ended up with the correct number of rounds on each target, just out of order. Walked up to the TO and crooked my pinky finger at him just in case he or the spotters missed it. I guess it's just the way I am. Never did it cross my mind to just dump the last 4 on the 2nd target. To me, that would be cheatin'.

[Cowboy Junky]

The funny scenerio is when the shooter shoots the first 5 rounds correctly but he/she think they messed up and earned a 'P'.

 

THEN, to make up alittle time, they decide to dump the remaining 5 shots. And actually earn a 'P'.

 

HAR, HAR, HAR!

 

And NO, I haven't witnessed such an occurance but I have heard a couple shooters tell me that they thought they earned a 'P' during the rifle run and 'thought' about dumping with pistols but realized it was not the right thing to do and finished the stage correctly.

 

 

..........Widder

I lost a state championship like that....or kinda' like that.....lol. I "thought" I had a P and in frustration really blasted away with my second gun and earning my first and last miss of the match. After the awards I looked and lost the title by 1.5 seconds.

[Spades Hanlin SASS#66204]

2 key points here from what I see..

 

1. new shooter?

2.sketchy advice from experianced shooter?

 

Don't know? Maybe the new guy will get some other advice from the other seasoned shooters about what to do in this situation next time...

 

Spades H. When you do P (We all do) best if ya don't turn into the wind too!!!

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Al lost me when he slit the innocent whore's throat to save what was her name Trixie wadn't it?

 

I despise dumpin' it gets writ in way too much. And a triple tap is terrible. Any more an abomination. Coupla weeks ago we even had a 6tuple tap. Had fun anyhoo. Just me. Lotta times where all others are double and triple etc tappin' I will try to figger out a way to Nevada or straight sweep it all legal like. Had a coupla stages that way at the same match writ so I could do it "my" so I was a happy cowboy.

 

Did y'all know there is a little town in Texas named Happy and the sports teams are the Cowboys. ?

 

So if I P I take it as an opportunity to sweep instead of the green light to dump.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Based on the OP, the new shooter knew he had a "P", willfully dumped remaining rounds to make up time and reported he was told by more experienced shooter to do it that way. He intended to make up time - so, SOG. Seems to fit PWB's example.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Al lost me when he slit the innocent whore's throat to save what was her name Trixie wadn't it?

 

I despise dumpin' it gets writ in way too much. And a triple tap is terrible. Any more an abomination. Coupla weeks ago we even had a 6tuple tap. Had fun anyhoo. Just me. Lotta times where all others are double and triple etc tappin' I will try to figger out a way to Nevada or straight sweep it all legal like. Had a coupla stages that way at the same match writ so I could do it "my" so I was a happy cowboy.

 

Did y'all know there is a little town in Texas named Happy and the sports teams are the Cowboys. ?

 

So if I P I take it as an opportunity to sweep instead of the green light to dump.

If it is a round count, often I take it as a challenge to see iffn I can confuse everyone but me,,,, sometimes it may backfire, but it still brings smiles!!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Once I earn a P, I shoot some kinda sweep that'll simulate what was the correct order...but I won't Dump on a target.

 

That IS WRONG!!!!!

 

Call it what ya want...but it's wrong. Shooter should have some dignity fer gawdz sake.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

[Brazos John]

Greenhorns look to the old hands to get the lay of the land. When yer told "It's OK to Dump after a P", that might sound like a good idea. It's when the other hands give'em their take on Dumping that the greenhorn sees the whole picture. I agree with the cowboys that say a talkin-to is in order, after a P. Maybe even mention Dumping in the next shooter's meeting, before the shoot. I ain't any faster sweeping or dumping, but for some folks, it's an advantage. I ain't never gonna win the Cadillac for first prize, but I ain't looking for no SOG, neither.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Even if I am 100% totally lost. I will not just dump.

 

Just seems wrong to me. If I have NO idea what to do. I will at lease

go to a Nevada sweep or something. Not just dump.

[Null N. Void]

Thank you all for the replies! The shooter involved did not get a SOG, just a P. I had talked to him about being careful not to get into SOG territory and he told me that dumping is what the very, very good shooter told him. That's why I posted it to see where the limit was. I think PWB's explanation of when he called a SOG is a very good explanation. Again, thanks for all of the thoughts and replies.

 

South Buffalo Slim

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Yeah, plus there is absolutely nothing as UN-dignified as missing on a dump plate. If you're going to try to hurry, hurry, hurry OMAHA... after a total brain fade it's way better to totally screw the whole thing FUBAR on a sweep. It's way more 'dignified'....

 

YO!

[The Shoer 27979]

A couple of you are pretty harsh on a new shooter, If he was told by an experienced shooter That dumping after a P was the thing to do. The only thing you can do is give the new shooter a P and explain to him afterwards why it was not a correct move on his part. But to give the new guy a Spirt of the Game penalty for not knowing and being told by an experienced shooter is just plain wrong. Remind me not to shoot with some of you guys.

[Captain Bill Burt]

 

Yes, it could...depending on the shooter's response to the pertinent question to determine INTENT (which is a primary component of the "SOG" violation)

..."WHY did you do that?"

 

FWIW - The ONLY SOG penalty I've ever assessed on a shooter was for DUMPING on the biggest target available after getting a "P"...he'd also holstered his first revolver after only firing 4 shots; had to redraw & fire the 5th round...then went "out of category" by DUMPING with the 2nd revolver using BOTH HANDS in a Duelist category.

When he told me he did it to "make up the time for the "P"...I really had no choice...IMO.

 

If PWB has only found it necessary to call an SOG once in all his years of CAS then I expect it'll be a long time before I need to make this call.

 

A couple of you are pretty harsh on a new shooter, If he was told by an experienced shooter That dumping after a P was the thing to do. The only thing you can do is give the new shooter a P and explain to him afterwards why it was not a correct move on his part. But to give the new guy a Spirt of the Game penalty for not knowing and being told by an experienced shooter is just plain wrong. Remind me not to shoot with some of you guys.

Yep. I like to think that part of my job as a TO and ROII is to do my best to help my shooter avoid penalties, not look for ways to penalize him. If the rules can be reasonably interpreted in his favor then that's what I'm going to do. I think that PWB is saying something similar when he said he 'really had no choice'.

 

I always find it interesting when PWB provides clarification and shooters continue to post that they would call it differently. Based on what, personal preference?