Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Exactly, The lack of PWBs ruling is why this has droned on and on and on ...... Yet he is at Winter Range...... But we need him here ! Let us let him shoot ! Let's make it 14. So here we have the only time that one can hit an appropriate target when it's not yet to be hit...and no P will be rewarded. Yea...that's the Ticket! Oy... No one is arguing the Miss issue...the dang bullet hit a correct type target out of order. OYOYOY!!!!!! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 No different from shooting a 3-4-3 as 3-3-4, Procedural. Exactly. In that situation we don't let the shooter claim to have intended to shoot a 3-4-3 and missed his seventh shot, hitting the third plate accidentally. Not as long as room is given for a clean miss. So here we have the only time that one can hit an appropriate target when it's not yet to be hit...and no P will be rewarded. Yea...that's the Ticket! Phantom Exactly. Lot less Ps that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Repeat, If one follows the Flow Chart and the stages instructions, as written, NOT the shooters intent and NOT the stage writers intent - as written in American English, the Call is a "P". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Repeat, If one follows the Flow Chart and the stages instructions, as written, NOT the shooters intent and NOT the stage writers intent - as written in American English, the Call is a "P". I maintain the same statement except for the conclusion. The call is clean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, February 25, 2014 - insult Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, February 25, 2014 - insult I maintain the same statement except for the conclusion. The call is clean! You shoot a lot of matches? Just curious...would like to know where you are coming from...since you seem to not care that the "Miss" on the KD hit an appropriate type target. Phantom Link to comment
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Let's make it 14. So here we have the only time that one can hit an appropriate target when it's not yet to be hit...and no P will be rewarded. m Repeat, If one follows the Flow Chart and the stages instructions, as written, NOT the shooters intent and NOT the stage writers intent - as written in American English, the Call is a "P". If everyone would simply abide by the stage writers intent, instead of adding their own take, this would be much easier. The shooter had 10 rounds to take down kd targets. Until those kd are down - misses don't count. Meaning ANY round that does not strike or take down a kd does not count. (obviously safety issues are not the same thing). These are the stage writers intentions and these instructions over ride conventions, miss flow chart or prior experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 First, we must clarify what is a miss and what is a procedure (thanks to a 2001 rule change that got them all confused together). From page 19 of the handbook: A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Missed targets are scored as five-second additions to the competitor’s raw time for the stage (at annual matches and above). Procedurals are unintentional “mistakes” where the competitor engages the stage in a manner other than the way it is supposed to be shot. Procedurals are scored as ten-second additions to the competitor’s raw time for the stage, no more than one per stage. As such, a hit on the appropriate type of target (the dump plate) cannot be considered a “miss” so it is a HIT by definition. Now if that shot had hit nothing, it would have been a miss. And per the stage instructions the miss would not have counted for score. Per the flow chart – Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo? The answer is yes [if the shooter did a true miss (as per the definition above) some on the plates, they would not count per the stage instructions) ] The next question is: Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses? The answer is NO because the dump plate was HIT prior to all plates falling. So it is a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I certainly respect your opinion Creeker you're knowledgeable and active in the sport and on the wire. It seems a stretch to go from misses don't count, to anything that round does other than hit the knockdown doesn't count. That's the crux of your position. Doesn't that conflict with the implied instruction about 'remaining' rounds on the dump target? That seems to indicate that the dump isn't an eligible target until all KDs are down and is essentially the bank. The rule book supports differentiating based on weapon type before so that rifle hits on pistol targets are misses, but not the type you imply. Doesn't mean I'm right, just never heard it interpreted that way. Edit: Much better interpretation Marauder, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Really? The stage writers intent? How does one ascertain the stage writers intent if the stage writer is not readily available When a question is asked? The only thing we can go by is how the stages are WRITTEN. Engage the plate rack till down. Place remaining rounds on the dump plate. If you HIT the dump plate BEFORE you have completed the "till down" requirement how can it not be a P? The stage writer could have said "engage the plate rack and the dump plate with 10 rounds. Misses only count after all the plates are all down"..... Or something to that effect. Stan - in the P camp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I certainly respect your opinion Creeker you're knowledgeable and active in the sport and on the wire. Don't fall into that trap - Respecting my opinion is usually an error. But the one thing I am pretty good at is seeing both sides of an debate - and usually I am able to advocate for either one. Really? The stage writers intent? How does one ascertain the stage writers intent if the stage writer is not readily available Stan - in the P camp One the range - (especially with the distances referenced between targets) I would most likely agree with the "P" call, but I do think folks are sometimes a little too quick to ignore the fact that knock downs are (sometimes) subject to different scoring than static plates. When the stage writer allows multiple shots (without penalty) to take down a knockdown - they are offering their intent that rounds that do not strike a Knockdown are not counted toward your score. Solely in my opinion and worth exactly the price paid for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Unless specified by the stage instructions then how can we ignore SASS scoring procedures? Where was the exclusion for P's? Misses - yes Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Where does it say "without penalty"? Maybe I should go back to the OP...but I thought only misses on KD's don't count as misses unless they are left standing...nothing about being without penalties. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Great minds think alike......oy....lol Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Great minds think alike......oy....lol Stan Yea...but you were quicker at the draw! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosscut hardy Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 crosscut .. also in the P camp. Only specific stage writting would prevent the "P" that's the way I see it. ....crosscut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 'With the pistol shoot the plate rack till down Dump remaining pistol rounds on red cowboy(Dump Plate)" Ok had one shooter use 8 rounds to get the first 4 of 5 kd plates down...then shoots one on the dump target and goes back and picks up the last pistol KD. Whats the call you guys... Given the stage instructions... the shooter can use his 10 pistol rounds to "hit" pistol targets, the dirt, rifle targets, shotgun targets... with the only two requirements being that he knock down the 5 KDS before hitting the dump plate (last pistol target). Ergo, straight line boolean logic says that since he didn't didn't knock down the 5 KDs before he hit the dump plate, then he shot the pistol targets out of order... In any interpretation of the current SASS Handbook, RO1 & RO2 Manuals, you should conclude the proper score is a "P". For you that say "clean", where do you see that the stage instructions state anything that allows for shooting the dump plate BEFORE the KDs are ALL down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, February 25, 2014 - Insult Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, February 25, 2014 - Insult You shoot a lot of matches? Just curious...would like to know where you are coming from...since you seem to not care that the "Miss" on the KD hit an appropriate type target. Phantom YOUR COMMENT IS RUDE AND INCOMPETENT. Link to comment
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Whew! Guess I got home just in time to stop the brawl... Play nice or I'll put this thread out of it's misery. Regards, Allie "PWB please hurry back" Mo PS I think every possible argument has been covered and I haven't seen anyone budging. So what do you say to everyone going to their corners until WR is over. Then, someone can BTT it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 OK. I'm in my corner waitin' fer PWB. (in the OY! camp...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Z Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Except that the instructions call for all the KDs to fall and that any misses of a KD are not counted. Otherwise you may be right, But I think you are wrong. No Miss No P. Are you forgetting that he hit a pistol target out of order, this is not a miss on a KD, this is a hit on a pistol target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Z Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I'm done too Allie, just don't understand how anyone can get to a clean from the OP's description using the rules as they current exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Allie; You could pin this Threat at to top, with a Note "Waiting for PWB" Take Care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Great discussions. One thing I managed to do last night that 'might' interest some of you. when 2 targets are placed 3-4 feet apart and the shooter stands 7 YARDS away, it only takes about a 3-4 inch swing of the front sight to go from one target to the other. But, that still appears to be ample room for a clear miss. No doubt that JEDI Creeker's comments (and others) make good points and could possibly sway some MD into calling this Clean. BUT, based on my understanding of our rules/guidelines.....I would call it a 'P'. And, I would call it a 'P' on meowndangself if I were to do it also. p.s. - Allie, now that I've added my useless comment, you can FREEZE this thread until PWB arrives. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I will stop in from time to time to see how far this one turns into left field For the record I'm going with P.......key words "until down" Three days later and four pages............still going into left, left field PWB is roffleol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 If everyone would simply abide by the stage writers intent, instead of adding their own take, this would be much easier. The shooter had 10 rounds to take down kd targets. Until those kd are down - misses don't count. Meaning ANY round that does not strike or take down a kd does not count. (obviously safety issues are not the same thing). These are the stage writers intentions and these instructions over ride conventions, miss flow chart or prior experiences. I in this boat. We all know if you have two targets on each side of the range and have to alternate between the two IF the shooter misses one and then reengages it then it's a miss not a P. PW uses that one as an example. We all know what the intent "was" but intent doesn't matter anymore. So with that in mind (IMO) he could have shot two rifle targets, and the dump and went back and cleaned up the plate and still would have been ok because a miss is a miss. No I will wait patiently to see if I'm a zero or a hero.........lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Allie; You could pin this Threat at to top, with a Note "Waiting for PWB" Take Care Great discussions. One thing I managed to do last night that 'might' interest some of you. when 2 targets are placed 3-4 feet apart and the shooter stands 7 YARDS away, it only takes about a 3-4 inch swing of the front sight to go from one target to the other. But, that still appears to be ample room for a clear miss. No doubt that JEDI Creeker's comments (and others) make good points and could possibly sway some MD into calling this Clean. BUT, based on my understanding of our rules/guidelines.....I would call it a 'P'. And, I would call it a 'P' on meowndangself if I were to do it also. p.s. - Allie, now that I've added my useless comment, you can FREEZE this thread until PWB arrives. ..........Widder Three days later and four pages............still going into left, left field PWB is roffleol I saw PWB today, even spoke with him some. Forgot to mention this thread. Maybe tomorrow, but thinking he's on vacation. Personally I think it's a P, but at the club I shoot most at the directions are a bit more clear as to how to shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Clayton, SASS #63196 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 P Whado I win for being right? Until KD plates are down means no shooting at other targets until the KD plates are down, or you run out of bullets. I'd P myself if it were me. Stuff happens. Move on. -Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hi C0ckr0ach, I could pin it; but folks complain about too many pinned items. I have a reminder for myself and will BTT if he doesn't see it. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 My very first thought when I read the original thread was a "P" then when I read Grizz's post .. I rethought it.. clean... Then when Possum Skinner & Creeker backed up Grizz.. I'm still thinkin' "clean.." I'm in the right camp.. But.. After readin' the other cowpokes fer and against... I'm thinkin' the dump WAS a legal pistol target hit out of order... So.... Reckon I'm changin' camps... "P" Rance Thinkin' this is hard on the ol' noggin' can't handle all the indecisiveness Dang ... Thinkin' I was wrong again... I'm thinkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Doggle Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I'm thinking' this horse has been shot, "P"ed on, and needs to be put out of our misery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I'm thinking' this horse has been shot, "P"ed on, and needs to be put out of our misery. Ah Boon Doggle.....some sayeth it was a miss :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 OK, I just read the OP... ...it's a P. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 "P" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Whew! HAHAHA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Sorry, I couldn't help myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.