Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Doesn't change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 'With the pistol shoot the plate rack till down Dump remaining pistol rounds on red cowboy(Dump Plate)" Some days are a little foggy - I will withdraw my call for a miss! but I'm still calling this a "P" ! Based on the info in the post he hit all but one then hit the dump plate. Then he goes back and hits the last rack plate so now earns the "P" That's the way I see it! I'll add this - I enjoy dump plates as much as anyone - BUT - the instructions need to make it clear on what is expected and include when you may get a penalty. Yes that could become a long write up but that's why some cringe at a dump post because misses and "P"'s will cause a lot of disagreement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 If it is not a P. It dang well should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Al, For once, I disagree with you. Fast-draw Willie shoots KD's 1,2,3,4 down and misses 5. Pulls second pistol, hits 5, sees it start back, swings over and puts a couple of shots on stationary, sees out of the corner of his eye that 5 is still up, swings back, knocks 5 down and puts remaining 2 shots on dump. I can't see how this should be penalized. The dump is only there to give a shooter a place to put left-over rounds instead of him/her dumping them into space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Clarification on my original call... I assumed (I know bad word) that a miss on the plate rack does not count.. but... The original OP doesn't state that.. So that could change the outcome of everyone's call on this one.. Rance Thinkin' I still say clean assuming "miss on plate rack does not count" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diablo slim Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Misses on the plate rack do not count but misses on the dump did count... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I don't think any rounds that don't connect with a knockdown plate should be called anything until ALL plates are down. I agree, we've all had a wild shot before, much more than 4-5' from the intended target J R-E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 To me. This is one of those stages that the stage writer could have added one word to clear things like this up. Shoot plate rack until down. THEN put remaining rounds on the dump target. That lets all shooters know that the plate rack must go down BEFORE you can put any remaining rounds on the dump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 To me. This is one of those stages that the stage writer could have added one word to clear things like this up. Shoot plate rack until down. THEN put remaining rounds on the dump target. That lets all shooters know that the plate rack must go down BEFORE you can put any remaining rounds on the dump. That would have changed my vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Bob Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 My problem with that Al is at times we look at the shooter. If he is well known and knowledgeable, this may "taint" ones opinion as to "Was this intentional or was this an Oh Sh*t and pulled/jerked their shot"(who has never done that can cast the first stone). If it was a new shooter that was having problems hitting the barn, then, again tainted view, would more likely look past it. Unless the shooter admits to the error, then by all rights, benefit of doubt goes to the shooter. Last plate was not down when the shot was fired. My understanding is we are not to assume what the shooter was actually aiming at. But again, I earn my alias easily!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 To me. This is one of those stages that the stage writer could have added one word to clear things like this up. Shoot plate rack until down. THEN put remaining rounds on the dump target. That lets all shooters know that the plate rack must go down BEFORE you can put any remaining rounds on the dump. Gotta disagree with ya Al... Even if "shoot plate rack til down" was there... A miss doesn't count on the plate rack... Doesn't matter where that wild miss goes (well to a degree can't be within' so many feet of the shooter or SDQ & etc) Rance Thinkin' still clean.. Edit: added etc.. meaning a wild shot could get the shooter more than a non counting miss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 For those that don't think the dump target was a target...pullllease! It's a pistol target just as the KDs were pistol targets. The dump target is to be engaged based on how one shoots the KDs. Therefore it follows the Flow Chart. If you engage the dump while a KD is going down...but then it doesn't go down...well...guess ya shoulda waited a fraction of a second to make sure it went down or shot it again. Gawd...sometimes... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Gotta disagree with ya Al... Even if "shoot plate rack til down" was there... A miss doesn't count on the plate rack... Doesn't matter where that wild miss goes (well to a degree can't be within' so many feet of the shooter or SDQ & etc) Rance Thinkin' still clean.. Edit: added etc.. meaning a wild shot could get the shooter more than a non counting miss... Who sez it doesn't matter where it goes?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 It's been a long winter without shooting so I saw the light and changed my post #37 realizing with the stage as written there can be no miss on the rack BUT I still stand on the "P". Top shooter, new shooter, if the dump target was 3-4 feet from the rack I can't imagine how you could not see him/her going for the dump and not the rack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Hi Folks, PWB is at Winter Range. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Hi Folks, PWB is at Winter Range. Regards, Allie Mo Well somebody hand him a cell phone!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Howdy Allie Mo.. Remember the rifle targets down at Sparta... They were all misses... No "P" envolved... On this scenario.. misses on the Knock Down plate rack did not count.. Rance Thinkin' same logic applies I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Howdy Allie Mo.. Remember the rifle targets down at Sparta... They were all misses... No "P" envolved... On this scenario.. misses on the Knock Down plate rack did not count.. Rance Thinkin' same logic applies I think Did not count as misses...didn't say nothing about P's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The problems caused by this type of scenario regardless of how the stage instructions are written is the reason I quit writing stages like this years ago. I am in the "P" corner. If you don't allow more rounds than there are targets you won't have these issues. If there are 5 knockdowns allow 5 rounds. This whole issue of "kinder,gentler" allow shooters more chances to hit the targets is nothing but a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The problems caused by this type of scenario regardless of how the stage instructions are written is the reason I quit writing stages like this years ago. I am in the "P" corner. If you don't allow more rounds than there are targets you won't have these issues. If there are 5 knockdowns allow 5 rounds. This whole issue of "kinder,gentler" allow shooters more chances to hit the targets is nothing but a problem. I tend to agree HJ...so long as folks calibrate the targets to go down with relative easy...and move them in close because they are generally small(er) targets...I'm good with 5 for 5...or 6 for 6...etc,etc. Cheers!!! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 If it says shoot plate rack until down and THEN Dump remaining rounds on dump target. and that dump target is 3-4 feet away. There is room for a clean miss on the plate rack. And unless one is still standing it is not counted a miss. But to me. If you hit the dump. 3-4 feet away before the plate rack is down. You DID NOT follow the instructions. If that plate rack is a slow faller and you are a fast shooter. Then double tap that last target before you move on. I don't care. But to move one before the plate rack is down as was the instructions (if they would have added the word THEN) I don't see how it could not be a P. Stage writers. Make it clear what you want. Or add STAGE NOTES to make clear this stuff for everyone there. As in STAGE NOTE. All falling targets MUST GO DOWN BEFORE moving to the dump plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 You can frequently write stages with pistol & revolver knockdowns that allow the shooter to clean up any knockdowns left standing with the shotgun, thus allowing them to stay clean for the stage. --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 You can frequently write stages with pistol & revolver knockdowns that allow the shooter to clean up any knockdowns left standing with the shotgun, thus allowing them to stay clean for the stage. --Dawg beats the crap outta some racks...bad angles get massive splash back too. But if the targets can handle it and the splash back is survivable...then you're right, good clean up method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 For those that don't think the dump target was a target...pullllease! It's a pistol target just as the KDs were pistol targets. The dump target is to be engaged based on how one shoots the KDs. Therefore it follows the Flow Chart. Phantom Ya gotta a point there Phantom You can frequently write stages with pistol & revolver knockdowns that allow the shooter to clean up any knockdowns left standing with the shotgun, thus allowing them to stay clean for the stage. --Dawg Yep, Yep, that's the I write most of mine. But when I do use KDs I still write do bla,bla,bla..THEN shoot the dump. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 beats the crap outta some racks...bad angles get massive splash back too. But if the targets can handle it and the splash back is survivable...then you're right, good clean up method. Yep. Don't think I would want my plate rack taking the abuse of a bunch of SG makeups. Now add something else at the end to make it up with a SG. Fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The only sequence in the revolver targets is that KDs must be shot first, and REMAINING shots on the dump target. That makes the five KDs much different than the dump target, in that there are two separate sequences with the revolver - the KDs (in any order) and the dump plate. Shooting revolver targets in other than the order specified is a P. The only way you can say that a hit on a target out of sequence on the correct type of target is anything but a P is if the targets are so close as to not allow a clean miss. Eye witnesses removed any doubt that there was a "too close" dump target involved - it was separated from the KDs by a few feet. The clearest rule that applies exactly is in the Stage Conventions, which must apply unless the stage description says clearly to do something that is different from the conventions. 2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss. (page 13, RO I handbook) My view (agreeing with Phantom) - it's a P for hitting the dump target before all the KDs were down. MISSING the dump target with the 6th shot, however - THAT could have been considered a miss on the KD and shooter could have been clean over the entire stage. Hard to call the 6th shot a miss if it hit a target of the correct type, but out of order. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 OK folks I hate to admit this, but there have been times when the gun went off a leeetle bit before I wanted it to, and the shot went wide. So if that unintentional wide shot happened to hit the dump plate then I get a P? It was a lousy shot, a bad miss, but I had no desire to hit the dump plate, it just happened. Anvil Al's clarified instructions won't make any difference, a bad miss could still happen. Shooter gets benefit of the doubt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 OK folks I hate to admit this, but there have been times when the gun went off a leeetle bit before I wanted it to, and the shot went wide. So if that unintentional wide shot happened to hit the dump plate then I get a P? It was a lousy shot, a bad miss, but I had no desire to hit the dump plate, it just happened. Anvil Al's clarified instructions won't make any difference, a bad miss could still happen. Shooter gets benefit of the doubt? Sorry, nope. That would be a P if you hit a target of the right type in the wrong order. We don't judge intent, just the result. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Well, I'll just add one more thought: some of you got it right.....and some of you don't. YO! ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 We do this all the time. It's a P. Flow chart: "Did the shooter hit all the correct type targets with legally acquired ammo?" YES. (the plate rack and the dump are both correct type targets for this string) "Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?" NO. (stage instructions: "With the pistol shoot the plate rack till down Dump remaining pistol rounds on red cowboy(Dump Plate)") Not much wiggle room there. Needed to be written "THEN dump..." just to eliminate all question but it's not really necessary the way it's written.) "Did the target placement give the shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument?" YES. (It was stated the dump was several feet away) "Assess Procedural." ----------------- What the shooter did is cut and dry on this one. Where it gets interesting is if he does something that begs deciding intent when we aren't supposed to. For example what if he shot at the dump before the plates were down... and MISSED THE DUMP? In that case the shooter can't have intent assigned and got very lucky because there are no misses until the plate rack is down. But in this case the shooter hit the dump before the plate rack was down. Still no miss but absolutely a P. In fact, this is about the only way to get a P in this situation. It happens more than you'd think especially when the shooter is in a hurry and leaves the last plate up. SASS rules get a little odd when you start dealing with no-miss bonuses. Gotta have this worked out ahead of time because it's going to happen during the match. We love to use them though, because especially at monthlies we can get the difficult targets out (texas star, tombstone rack, plate rack, knockouts, etc...) without making shooters nervous about blowing a match with a ton of misses. By just making them either no miss (10 shots for x number of plates) or giving a 1 second bonus (5 shots for 5 plates, no miss 1 second bonus each) you minimize their value and penalty making them way more fun for all shooter categories and skill levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 OK folks I hate to admit this, but there have been times when the gun went off a leeetle bit before I wanted it to, and the shot went wide. So if that unintentional wide shot happened to hit the dump plate then I get a P? It was a lousy shot, a bad miss, but I had no desire to hit the dump plate, it just happened. Anvil Al's clarified instructions won't make any difference, a bad miss could still happen. Shooter gets benefit of the doubt? If I miss it that bad. I will just cowboy up and take my P. At 3-4 feet away. There was room for a clean miss on the plate rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 A miss cannot cause a P, even if the stage instruction says the miss is not to be scored as a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 STAGE NOTE. All falling targets MUST GO DOWN BEFORE moving to the dump plate. Not needed - covered by stage conventions. Stage conventions are included in the rule books so you do not have to explain this all the time in the stage descriptions, thus keeping them short and sweet. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runamuck, SASS #49216L Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 A miss cannot cause a P, even if the stage instruction says the miss is not to be scored as a miss. A miss did not cause the P....a round out of order caused the P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 A miss cannot cause a P, even if the stage instruction says the miss is not to be scored as a miss. Applying this old rule of thumb, which is NOT in the rule book, is not always right, as for this situation. In this case, shot #6 was not a miss, it hit a revolver target. That HIT gets scored as a P. Good luck, GK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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