Royal Flush Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I can't believe nobody asked for clarification of the stage instructions. We shoot this kind of stage all the time and there is always some ? about what to do, even though I state very clearly that all KD must be down before you engage the dump target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Ok, I get what's being said, but how are you coming to the conclusion that the dump isn't part of the "correct type targets?" It's for that gun, on that string, and the stage instructions tell you when to hit it. How is hitting it early not a P? That sounds like a mighty slippery slope for getting out of just about any P. How is that any different than shooting a sweep where it tells you to shoot 3 targets with 9 shots and place your 10th on a 4th target? If you mess up and hit that 4th target early... it's a P. How is this different? Same gun, same shooting position, same string, correct target type. Why is the dump not in play as a potential P if you hit it at the wrong time? I'm just trying to understand the other side here. Not getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 If it says shoot plate rack until down and THEN Dump remaining rounds on dump target. and that dump target is 3-4 feet away. There is room for a clean miss on the plate rack. And unless one is still standing it is not counted a miss. But to me. If you hit the dump. 3-4 feet away before the plate rack is down. You DID NOT follow the instructions. If that plate rack is a slow faller and you are a fast shooter. Then double tap that last target before you move on. I don't care. But to move one before the plate rack is down as was the instructions (if they would have added the word THEN) I don't see how it could not be a P. Stage writers. Make it clear what you want. Or add STAGE NOTES to make clear this stuff for everyone there. As in STAGE NOTE. All falling targets MUST GO DOWN BEFORE moving to the dump plate. Glad to see someone agreed with my take on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Not needed - covered by stage conventions. Stage conventions are included in the rule books so you do not have to explain this all the time in the stage descriptions, thus keeping them short and sweet. Good luck, GJ If it was so clear. Then how come we are on page 3? What is wrong with writing a stage note to clear everything up for shooters?? That takes less time to do than having to answer a bunch of can I do this can I do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 A miss cannot cause a P, even if the stage instruction says the miss is not to be scored as a miss. a MISS can cause a p if it hits another correct target type...then it's a hit on the wrong target...even though you let the shot off a bit too early... Oops! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Plains Hud SASS#64232 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Really no different if it was a neveda sweep starting on either end. I pull pistol and accidentlly, forget , let one loose early, or just plain miss and it hits center target first...... Its a P. Or just plain screw up a sequence of any kind. As long as I hit proper target type. No misses but a P. Just my thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 a MISS can cause a p if it hits another correct target type...then it's a hit on the wrong target...even though you let the shot off a bit too early... Oops! Phantom OK, I can buy this. Dang, I'm agreeing with Phantom again! (I hope PWB doesn't say you/we are wrong) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 OK, I can buy this. Dang, I'm agreeing with Phantom again! (I hope PWB doesn't say you/we are wrong) It's okay...yer friends will still love ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I am sure am glad that some of you aren't on the Supreme Court! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The SHB provides one way to earn a P as the following: " Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description." This clearly fits the bill intent none or not. As Phantom said there's no need for a "then" the "remaining" is clear enough. The SHB also says: "Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural “trap” by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets." Seems we are EXPECTED to judge intent in this situation, they were both pistol targets. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 A miss cannot cause a P, even if the stage instruction says the miss is not to be scored as a miss. He didn't miss. He hit the dump plate. Had he missed the dump, he wouldn't have earned a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I am sure am glad that some of you aren't on the Supreme Court! At least they are pro-gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 said there's no need for a "then" the "remaining" is clear enough. The SHB also says:. I agree that you should not have to. BUT. Why not if it helps clear things up. Really. How hard is it to add it if it help clear things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The SHB also says: "Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural “trap” by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets." Seems we are EXPECTED to judge intent in this situation, they were both pistol targets. No, the handbook is trying to get a stage designer to AVOID having the spotters or RO try to guess the intent of the shooter, by "should be avoided if at all possible". No one likes having to judge on intent. Hard feelings can result very easily. We are in good shape if we are NEVER forced (by stage layout or poor instructions) to guess the shooter's intent. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diablo slim Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 OK LETS MUDDY THE WATER SOME MORE This was a reshoot...every one including the shooter had already shot the stage. Note : When i write this stage i usually put in "Then" in the sentence...but somehow I forgot this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Until the last plate is down NO pistol round fired downrange that misses a plate can be called ANYthing but a miss. Period. Says so right there in the stage instructions. Whether it hits a rock, a tree, or the dump target. Did not impact a still up plate? -- then miss only. Clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Bob Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Well, for me and after 3 pages, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. For me, the call is clean, no P. Next Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 He didn't miss. He hit the dump plate. Had he missed the dump, he wouldn't have earned a P. He actually missed, He missed the last KD. The bullet happened to hit the dump plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Count me in the "P" crowd. He HIT the dump plate (a legal pistol target) out of order. (if he had missed he would have been OK.) He earned a "P". We'll see when PWB gets back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Z Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 He actually missed, He missed the last KD. The bullet happened to hit the dump plate. Unless you are the shooter in question you have no way of knowing his/her intent, this is not obvious from the description. Even so, it hit an appropriate target, out of order. No different from shooting a 3-4-3 as 3-3-4, Procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Until the last plate is down NO pistol round fired downrange that misses a plate can be called ANYthing but a miss. Period. Says so right there in the stage instructions. Whether it hits a rock, a tree, or the dump target. Did not impact a still up plate? -- then miss only. Clean. Did you even read the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Ok Lone Dog, I understand your counter argument now. You are trying to claim the dump target is not an appropriate pistol target until the plate rack is down. But yeah we are going to have to agree to disagree until a final ruling is made. It's an appropriate pistol target and I can't see how the wording makes it otherwise. If he had accidentally hit a rifle or shotgun target it would be "nothing" but he hit a pistol target before he was supposed to during the pistol string with the pistols. That's a P in my book. We'll see what the final ruling is. If it goes your way I'll have to get in line with everyone else and get clarification on the best way to write the stage so it works as intended because I'll have no idea... One thing is for sure, it never gets boring around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Unless you are the shooter in question you have no way of knowing his/her intent, this is not obvious from the description. Even so, it hit an appropriate target, out of order. No different from shooting a 3-4-3 as 3-3-4, Procedural. That is exactly why it is NOT a P. It is simply a miss on the KDs IE not a MISS and NOT a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 That is exactly why it is NOT a P. It is simply a miss on the KDs IE not a MISS and NOT a P. So...the Dump target is non-existent because there is a KD still up...and the Dump target is only engaged after the KD's are down...that's your position? Okay...then I'll never get a P since only targets that is supposed to get hit count as targets. I'll now only get misses...and in the case of KD's, the misses won't count either...CLEAN!!!!! Yaaaaahoooooo!!!!! Uh...wait a minute...the Dump target was/is a pistol target...sitting out there...allllll alone...and shouldn't get hit until the KDs are down...hmmmmm... OY! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Z Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 That is exactly why it is NOT a P. It is simply a miss on the KDs IE not a MISS and NOT a P. What are you referencing when you say "That is exactly it is NOT a P"? Intent? Intent is meaningless in this case as he hit a pistol target, out of order, with his pistol. I always intend to hit my targets in order, but brain farts happen. Still a P when they do. The second part of your comment is ignoring the both the rule and the miss/hit chart. Established by the OP: 1. they were both pistol targets 2. the instruction was to put down the KDs, and 3. dump the remainder on the dump target ( the other pistol target) 4. the shooter put down 4 of the 5 KDs, then 5. Put one on the dump target, then 6. put down the 5th KD. 7. The dump target was 3 feet away from the KD targets (allowing a clean miss) How is this not out of order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I cannot believe this post has gone on this long! JEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Z Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I cannot believe this post has gone on this long! JEL I can't believe that people don't follow the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 After 3 pages to me it is still a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 someone must just be really full of cabin fever and is yanking our chain, oyyyy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 someone must just be really full of cabin fever and is yanking our chain, oyyyy Well, if you go by stats on the main page, visible to anyone, the most frequent posters are as follow. Phantom 13 Anvil Al 7 J-Bar 6 Hacker 6 ... If interested, look for yourself by clicking the nn Replies link on the following page. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showforum=12 Regards, Allie Mo with 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Unless you are the shooter in question you have no way of knowing his/her intent, this is not obvious from the description. Even so, it hit an appropriate target, out of order. No different from shooting a 3-4-3 as 3-3-4, Procedural. Except that the instructions call for all the KDs to fall and that any misses of a KD are not counted. Otherwise you may be right, But I think you are wrong. No Miss No P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Normally I would have been right there with Phantom in the mid teens but I am going to try a new method of just one post with what I think the answer is then wait for the call . Besides this time Phantom and I are on the same side so there went half the fun . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Palewolf!! Please put an end to this idiocy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 What are you referencing when you say "That is exactly it is NOT a P"? Intent? Intent is meaningless in this case as he hit a pistol target, out of order, with his pistol. I always intend to hit my targets in order, but brain farts happen. Still a P when they do. The second part of your comment is ignoring the both the rule and the miss/hit chart. Established by the OP: 1. they were both pistol targets 2. the instruction was to put down the KDs, and 3. dump the remainder on the dump target ( the other pistol target) 4. the shooter put down 4 of the 5 KDs, then 5. Put one on the dump target, then 6. put down the 5th KD. 7. The dump target was 3 feet away from the KD targets (allowing a clean miss) How is this not out of order? Your analysis is ok if there is NO FURTHER instruction in the stage. YET there are. That is why it is NOT a P. If my interpretation of the stage instructions are right then the stage instruction trump all other normal processing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Palewolf!! Please put an end to this idiocy!! Exactly, The lack of PWBs ruling is why this has droned on and on and on ...... Yet he is at Winter Range...... But we need him here ! Let us let him shoot ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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