When a miss is called clean. Whats your call?

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Stage calls for 10 rds in rifle. Last round to be shot at small distance target for a 5 second bonus, a miss does not count. Shooter ejects a round, on bonus target hears a click and informed he had ejected a round, does not reload and moves on to next firearm. Shooter shoots the rest of the stage clean.

Shooter was given a clean stage. Reasoning, a miss didn't count on bonus, and an ejected round unless reloaded is a miss, so no miss. clean

Shooter made the attempt and went through the motions of firing a round at the bonus, even though rifle was empty because of ejected live round. Clean

So, your the 3rd spotter, what's your call?

[Pit Bull Tex]

I would call it one miss.He did not engage the bonus target.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I'd call it CLEAN and not give it much worry.

 

EDIT: unless the rifle bonus was the last shot of the stage, nothing was gained and of course, no bonus was earned.

 

Dang Pit Bull: its awful early here in E.TN and I see you're already up down in Texas. Heck, I ain't even had time to milk the cows or feed the chickens and raid the hens nest for breakfast.

 

 

..........Widder

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

clean

[Wyatt]

Clean........the shooter engaged the bonus.......just no round in the rifle

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

1 miss for the 1 unfired round

 

Stage called for 10 rounds to be fired, shooter only fired 9 rounds.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I have eaten the cows so don,t milk any more.Gave away or eaten the chickens.Don't eat breakfast until lunch time.We had a stage at Bayou Blast last year that the bonus target had to be engaged,if you missed it no miss,if you hit it it was a bonus.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

The dog and the bug have it right. 1 MISS for the un-fired round. If the scenario says you have to fire 10, you have to fire 10.

 

Possum

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

tha gun has to go bang ten times! don't ask how I know,,, last round out of pistols on a no miss dummy was a dud, I thought clean, but NO, it didn't go bang, 1 miss

 

I got peepul to milk the cow, gathur aggs, and git tha paper.

 

cpbc

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

1 miss for the 1 unfired round

 

Stage called for 10 rounds to be fired, shooter only fired 9 rounds.

+1

 

AO

[Buckhorn Bud]

The dog and the bug have it right. 1 MISS for the un-fired round. If the scenario says you have to fire 10, you have to fire 10.

 

Possum

At first I was thinking clean but I believe you are correct. 1 miss!

[Yul Lose]

Uno miss.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Must fire 10.

 

One unfired round. +5 on the score sheet is the way I see it.

Round needed to at least be fired.

[Wyatt]

Somebody is wrong...........again

[Litl Red]

Stage calls for 10 shots.

 

No attempt to fire 10. Failure to engage. Didn't attempt to shoot stage as described.

[Cassalong Hopidy]

The shooter did engage the bonus target. "Engaged" is defined as attempting to fire a round at the target. RO1, p. 29. He did so when he aimed and dropped the trigger, hearing the click described in the OP.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

There is NO "failure to engage"; shooter DID "engage" the target according to the OP.

REF: RO1 p.29

 

HOWEVER, the shooter gets a 5-second penalty (scored same as a miss) for the EJECTED/not replaced round.

REF: RO1 p.19

 

Misses for rounds actually FIRED don't count (as is often the case with KD targets).

[Pit Bull Tex]

I guess I am wrong,but engage to me is to fire a round down range.If you did not have to fire a round and could just point a click why would anyone take the time to shoot at a little target for just a 5 sec. bonus.To me if you failed to replace the round and shoot a round down range on a must engage target then you should get a miss or a spirt of the game "P".

[Wyatt]

So................clean with a 5 second penalty(scored as a miss) for not firing 10 rounds?

 

Hmmm..........are they still in the running for a clean match?

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I guess I am wrong,but engage to me is to fire a round down range.If you did not have to fire a round and could just point a click why would anyone take the time to shoot at a little target for just a 5 sec. bonus.To me if you failed to replace the round and shoot a round down range on a must engage target then you should get a miss or a spirt of the game "P".

 

Pit,

If you make a FALSE attempt to engage, then yes, the SOG could apply. Just pointing your gun down range and saying "BANG" doesn't count as engage. Jacking a round with primer hit or not does. And a 5-second BONUS not engaged, as in this case, would be equal to a 10 second penalty as soon as your competition hit the BONUS. 5 second MISS for the un-fired round and lack of a 5 second HIT.

 

Yer pard,

Possum

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

So................clean with a 5 second penalty(scored as a miss) for not firing 10 rounds?

 

Hmmm..........are they still in the running for a clean match?

 

No. Nyet. Nix. Nada, 非法

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I guess I am wrong, but engage to me is to fire a round down range.If you did not have to fire a round and could just point a click why would anyone take the time to shoot at a little target for just a 5 sec. bonus.To me if you failed to replace the round and shoot a round down range on a must engage target then you should get a miss or a spirt of the game "P".

 

REF: "Glossary of Terms" RO1 p.29 - definition of "ENGAGE" & "FAILURE TO ENGAGE"...also the rule re: DROPPED/EJECTED ammunition RO1 p.19

...(but I repeat myself)

There is NO "spirit of the game" P

 

So................clean with a 5 second penalty (scored as a miss) for not firing 10 rounds?

??

 

Hmmm..........are they still in the running for a clean match?

NO

 

How could this be considered "clean"??

[Wyatt]

How could this be considered "clean"??

 

Random logic for a Monday morning

 

I'm usually better by Wednesday

[Buckhorn Bud]

Random logic for a Monday morning

 

I'm usually better by Wednesday

 

How about a Tuesday morning?

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

I would give the shooter due credit for the click, meaning "engaging" the last round thus not getting a P, however I am not going to credit him a clean stage simply because he did not fire the last round. I can see both sides to this, but I believe in a way the shooter has eased by a P, but fairly. IMO, you can not miss nor hit what you did not shot at although you can get some credit for "engaging" (going thru the motion).

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

How about a Tuesday morning?

 

He ain't much betta on Tuesdays...if'n he wasn't clear across the country, I might have to do something to get his attention & clear his head a bit once in a while.

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup, it is a five second penalty for the unfired round regardless of the stage instructions.

 

I hate this rule because of that!!

 

Always causes confusion. Normally stage instructions would trump, but here it is an unstated exception guaranteed to cause problems.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I would have to reload if it took 5 min.,I get to shoot one more round.

[Krazy Kajun]

Random logic for a Monday morning

 

I'm usually better by Wednesday

Wyatt....3 fingers of your favorite adult beverage....that oughta clear your logic up a mite

[Colonel Dan, SASS #24025]

Clean = Perfect...i.e. no misses; no penalties. The shooter incurred a penalty ergo...not clean.

 

Just the view from my simple foxhole.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yup, it is a five second penalty for the unfired round regardless of the stage instructions.

 

I hate this rule because of that!!

 

Always causes confusion. Normally stage instructions would trump, but here it is an unstated exception guaranteed to cause problems.

YES + 1000!

 

The whole concept of "engagement" needs to be cleaned out of the rule books. "Engaged" is hard to see, and hard for folks to understand when it should be considered. But sending a round down range is (relatively) easy to spot.

 

IMHO, engage needs to be erased completely wherever it is used, and we just count what rounds the shooter sent down range. A click on an empty chamber, a squib, a dead primer, all would get treated the same - shooter did not send a round down range, so it is a round not fired (unless they can load another and fire it).

 

Thanks Marauder!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Lead Ringer]

The dog and the bug have it right. 1 MISS for the un-fired round. If the scenario says you have to fire 10, you have to fire 10.

 

+1

 

Possum

[Buckhorn Bud]

YES + 1000!

 

The whole concept of "engagement" needs to be cleaned out of the rule books. "Engaged" is hard to see, and hard for folks to understand when it should be considered. But sending a round down range is (relatively) easy to spot.

 

IMHO, engage needs to be erased completely wherever it is used, and we just count what rounds the shooter sent down range. A click on an empty chamber, a squib, a dead primer, all would get treated the same - shooter did not send a round down range, so it is a round not fired (unless they can load another and fire it).

 

Thanks Marauder!

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Since the counters are watching the targets it's up to the RO/TO to determine engagement in this sense. If the shooter, knowing a round had been jacked out, simply put the gun down and went on without trying to shoot the bonus target it's a Procedural. If the shooter tried to fire and it didn't go "bang" the target has been engaged thus no procedural. It is, however, a Miss. No, the miss is not because the shooter actually "missed the target." The miss is because of an "unfired round."

[Litl Red]

So....

 

A shooter who drops the hammer on an empty chamber is "engaging". He knows he cycled the action, throwing an unfired cartridge on the ground, and is pulling the trigger on an empty chamber. Good thing about "engaging" is the timer probably won't hear it. Engaging is not in the instructions.

 

Stage instructions say to shoot 10 rounds, LAST ROUND TO BE SHOT at the bonus target. It doesn't say to engage 10 targets. Last round shot wasn't at bonus target.

 

In fact, the shooter engaged too many targets as well.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

So...the shooter gets a "P" on top of the 5-seconds for the unfired round??

But a "miss cannot cause a procedural"...but the target was a "no miss" bonus, so it wasn't really a miss...but the rules say an ejected round MUST be replaced or counted as a missed shot...but maybe the T/O & spotters didn't see the round being ejected...so was it really ejected or not??

...but the shooter didn't even attempt to reload...give him a SOG for intentionally NOT following the stage instructions...but what would be the advantage to NOT reloading?? Shooter already has a 5-second penalty for NOT getting the bonus; but he gains the TIME for not reloading...so...

5+10+30 = 45 seconds in penalties for NOT reloading/engaging/hitting the "no miss" BONUS target??

Yeah...that sounds about right.