When a miss is called clean. Whats your call?

[Fargo Bill, SASS #4942]

"SPIRIT OF THE GAME"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SHOOT THEM ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PWB that ole boy could be right next door and it would still be an all day chore for ya. Us'n's on the "list" have to uphold our lack of standards/

I suspected as much.

 

Hypotheticals:

 

1. Shooter knows he cannot hit the tiny #10 bonus target. For whatever reason, old eyes, never put the rifle on paper, etc. SO loads 9 and "engages" target ten by sort of aiming that direction, levering and dropping the hammer on empty chamber. What's the call, bear in mind he gains the time from round 9 to engagement only #10 because the timer doesn't pick up that faint click. ?

 

2. Shooter knows he cannot hit the tiny #10 bonus target so he loads 10 but intentionally jacks out the 10th round before "engaging" and dropping the hammer to the inaudible to the timer click.

 

 

#1 Since one can not determine the shooter intentionally didn't load enough ammo assess 5 second penalty for unfired round.

 

#2 Since one cannot determine another person intentended to eject a round assess 5 second penalty for unfired round.

 

Unless there was more than 5 seconds of movement between rounds #9 and #10 the shooter gains no advantage for intentionally not firing the round.

 

BB covered this one 100%

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Well that was swift and sweet.

 

I was kinda sorta thinkin' (I know I know workin' w/o tools agin) that in the first case of only loading 9 rounds an argument could be made for SDQ for failing to adhere to loading/unloading procedures but has that ever covered underloading? Probably not, at least I never heared a sich. Now that overloading is no longer any penalty surely that extends to underloading as well ??

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Well that was swift and sweet.

 

I was kinda sorta thinkin' (I know I know workin' w/o tools agin) that in the first case of only loading 9 rounds an argument could be made for SDQ for failing to adhere to loading/unloading procedures but has that ever covered underloading?

 

Probably not, at least I never heared a sich. Now that overloading is no longer any penalty surely that extends to underloading as well ??

 

NO!...never has...never will.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Thankye kindly once again sir.

[Jess Ducky]

Pale, Pale, Pale. My friend. I just gotta dissagree...you stated it yourself up the ladder a bit, that a round lost and not recovered/replaced and fired is treated at a missed shot. A missed shot. And what is the panalty for a missed shot, on a target that is not penalized if you miss? You don't get the bonus. So. Our shooter is said to have aimed at the target and pulled the trigger, and heard that resounding click of an empty chamber. Realizing, perhaps then, perhaps previously, that he had jacked out the cartridge, and electing for whatever reason to abandon the effort at that point and go on, he does not reload and try again. His option. What does he lose? The time necessary to aim and fire, and the bonus. Does he get any other penalty? Not in my opinion. And not according to the course requirement.

 

Bonus targets are frequently given "special value" in our matches, becuase they are sometimes difficult or nearly impossible to hit, and the match director/course designer wants to set them apart as something, well, special. Thus the common trend to make them "no miss" targets, even if the course description requires the shooter to take a crack at them. But, in the course of fire, if the shooter took a crack at target #5, say, and got that lovely click from the rifle, and went on to the rest of the array without reloading to pick up #5, what would be his penalty? It would be treated as a missed shot, pure and simple. We are not required to reload when things go south, it is always an option. We do earn the appropriate panalty if we leave the target un-hit.

 

And the penalty in this case, as specifically stated in the course description, is loss of the bonus. Rgds, Ducky

[Talon Jamison]

₊

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Duck, Duck, Duck...I believe that what was meant in post #17 was that "no miss" bonus targets are not penalized if missed with rounds ACTUALLY FIRED...same as KD's, plate racks and TX star targets, & some SG flyers (if the stage directions so state).

 

Penalties for (ejected/not loaded) UNFIRED rounds would still apply.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

maybe we need to add, If it dunt go bang, it's a miss, if not replaced and then goes bang and hits the target!

 

really?

 

cpbc

[Buckhorn Bud]

Pale, Pale, Pale. My friend. I just gotta dissagree...you stated it yourself up the ladder a bit, that a round lost and not recovered/replaced and fired is treated at a missed shot. A missed shot. And what is the panalty for a missed shot, on a target that is not penalized if you miss? You don't get the bonus. So. Our shooter is said to have aimed at the target and pulled the trigger, and heard that resounding click of an empty chamber. Realizing, perhaps then, perhaps previously, that he had jacked out the cartridge, and electing for whatever reason to abandon the effort at that point and go on, he does not reload and try again. His option. What does he lose? The time necessary to aim and fire, and the bonus. Does he get any other penalty? Not in my opinion. And not according to the course requirement.

 

Bonus targets are frequently given "special value" in our matches, becuase they are sometimes difficult or nearly impossible to hit, and the match director/course designer wants to set them apart as something, well, special. Thus the common trend to make them "no miss" targets, even if the course description requires the shooter to take a crack at them. But, in the course of fire, if the shooter took a crack at target #5, say, and got that lovely click from the rifle, and went on to the rest of the array without reloading to pick up #5, what would be his penalty? It would be treated as a missed shot, pure and simple. We are not required to reload when things go south, it is always an option. We do earn the appropriate panalty if we leave the target un-hit.

 

And the penalty in this case, as specifically stated in the course description, is loss of the bonus. Rgds, Ducky

 

Very well said Duck. (Are you a lawyer?) I will agree completely that the shooter should not be awarded a miss.

 

Unfortunately, the shooter is not being penalized for a "miss." He/she is being penalized for an "unfired round." Although they may be recorded the same on a score sheet, and unfired rounds are often called a miss, (I think I called it that myself earlier in this thread) they are two very different penalties.

[Jess Ducky]

Wolfman, I saw that hired thug Talon Jamison hidin' down the alley up there, gonna back shoot me fer shore! Now you call that killer leash-dog of yours off or there'll be more 'an words between us!

[Jess Ducky]

Bud, I would have to dissaggree. The specific target we are talking about is not a regular target--it is a target bearing special gifts to the shooter, i.e., a bonus if hit, and no penalty if not hit. The shooter engaged it, we all seem to agree on that. For whatever reason (no round in the gun in this case) he did not hit the target. The only penalty applicable is that which is described in the course description, to whit, he does not get the bonus. There is nothing in the rules that I have found which states a penalty is applicable to a target which, by course description, bears no penalty. The rules state that a target which is not fired at, i.e., the round on the ground, is scored as a miss. That is for targets, which, logically, to miss them is a "miss." In this case, to miss is not a miss. To miss is to forfiet the bonus. The shooter takes the forfiture, and no other penalty applies. Or so I see it. Duck

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Wolfman, I saw that hired thug Talon Jamison hidin' down the alley up there, gonna back shoot me fer shore! Now you call that killer leash-dog of yours off or there'll be more 'an words between us!

 

He's headed your way...and what he got in mind ain't no spellin' contest.

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

so, the shooter that had the dud or unfired round makes out better than the shooter who shot but missed?

 

let it go.

 

It's a miss

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Do I really need to start packing? as in luggage.

 

pb

[Jess Ducky]

CC, I don't see how the shooter who tosses a round on the ground makes out better in this particular situation. Both shooters take the time to aim at the target--one goes bang, misses, he ends up with no bonus. The other aims, goes click, he ends up with no bonus. To me they are exactly the same.

[Cypress Sun]

CC, I don't see how the shooter who tosses a round on the ground makes out better in this particular situation. Both shooters take the time to aim at the target--one goes bang, misses, he ends up with no bonus. The other aims, goes click, he ends up with no bonus. To me they are exactly the same.

 

If something costs $10.00, you give them $10.00. If you drop $1.00 on the ground,don't get another $1.00 out of your wallet to make it up...........do you still get the item you are trying to purchase? Nope, only gave them $9.00......even with the coupon.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

CC, I don't see how the shooter who tosses a round on the ground makes out better in this particular situation. Both shooters take the time to aim at the target--one goes bang, misses, he ends up with no bonus. The other aims, goes click, he ends up with no bonus. To me they are exactly the same.

 

One LAST time:

 

When applying SASS rules to the situation:

the one who ejected a round w/no replacement gets a 5-second penalty (as long as the target was actually "engaged")

the one who fired & missed breaks even

the one who fired & HIT the bonus gains the 5-second "gift" for doing so.

 

The raw TIME factor should be about the same for all three.

 

FWIW - I have an opinion about those who habitually eject a round during a "speed rifle" string...but wouldn't want to alienate a 'host of friends'.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

CC, I don't see how the shooter who tosses a round on the ground makes out better in this particular situation. Both shooters take the time to aim at the target--one goes bang, misses, he ends up with no bonus. The other aims, goes click, he ends up with no bonus. To me they are exactly the same.

the shooter whose gun went bang recorded the shot, the one who went click din't record the time taken for the bonus. so he would be better off.

 

 

BUT, it is still a MISS if it dint go BANG!

[PECOS PETE, SASS#16437]

PaleWolf has cited the rules, so that's it. Howerver, I think the issue was caused by the Cowboys own action , not by a round that did not fire, and should be a FTE as the stage seemed to be written. Looks like it would take a rules change/modifaction to make so.

A "bonus" is only a "bonus" until the first Cowboy makes it, then it's a penalty !

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Stage calls for 10 rds in rifle. Last round to be shot at small distance target for a 5 second bonus, a miss does not count.

Shooter ejects a round, on bonus target hears a click and informed he had ejected a round,

does not reload and moves on to next firearm. Shooter shoots the rest of the stage clean.

...

 

REF: post #'s 17 & 22

[Griff]

The specific target we are talking about is not a regular target--it is a target bearing special gifts to the shooter, i.e., a bonus if hit, and no penalty if not hit... Or so I see it. Duck

You need to look at it from the perspective that your "special" target only has magical properties if a bullet is fired at it.

 

If you want shooting at the bonus to be truly optional, make loading for iit optional.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I write bonuses as optional. In my mind, if it's not optional, it's not a bonus, only a no-miss miss. 10 seconds to load and shoot a small and far target with the option of stopping after the regular targets have been engaged allows you to decide if you want to take the risk.

 

CR

[Jess Ducky]

Griff, I don't consider shooting at the target optional. Nor did the competitor in this instance--he took the time to aim and attempt the shot. It was not his intention, or so I surmise, to somehow "fake" the shot and thus gain some mysterious advantage. He did what the course required, it's just that his rifle didn't cooperate. I maintain that the "magical properties" of this target pertain to any shooter who complies with the engagement instructions. If you shoot at it and miss, you simply lose the bonus. If you attempt to shoot at it, and no bullet hits the target, you simply lose the bonus. Why do we need to find a non-existent penalty for a guy who does what is asked, but has the missforture of an equipment malfunction? Just sayin'.... Duck

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Time to re-read the first post.

 

Stage calls for 10 rifle rounds. Only 9 rifle rounds fired. One unfired rifle round. Thus, scored as one miss.

 

If Stage writer wanted a different result, then the Stage needed to be written differently.

 

The Rule is the Rule until the Rule is changed. Not about fairness, which is in the eye of the beholder.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Griff, I don't consider shooting at the target optional. Nor did the competitor in this instance--he took the time to aim and attempt the shot. It was not his intention, or so I surmise, to somehow "fake" the shot and thus gain some mysterious advantage. He did what the course required, it's just that his rifle didn't cooperate. I maintain that the "magical properties" of this target pertain to any shooter who complies with the engagement instructions. If you shoot at it and miss, you simply lose the bonus. If you attempt to shoot at it, and no bullet hits the target, you simply lose the bonus.

Why do we need to find a non-existent penalty for a guy who does what is asked, but has the missforture of an equipment malfunction? Just sayin'.... Duck

 

RIght there's the hole in the argument...the penalty is specifically listed in the RO1 "Penalty Overview" - 5-SECOND PENALTIES ~23~

 

 

You need to look at it from the perspective that your "special" target only has magical properties if a bullet is fired at it.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

if it dunt go BOOM, it's a miss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or 5 seconds, whatever u wanna call it!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

When a miss is called clean. Whats your call?

My call is that the shooter got lucky.