If Rank Points Are Truly Here To Stay

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I learned a saying in the Army, that has benefited me my whole life. It is the KISS Principle. KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID"! Honestly this is starting to look like IPSC!

Like it or not, RP has been around for quite a while and looks as though it's here to stay. The OP was a suggestion that might improve RP scoring. I favor the notion and am pleased someone has started thinking about how to work out a solution within the rules instead of just griping about them.

 

CR

[Griff]

Then, there those of us who feel total time doesn't represent different scenarios on all stages.

 

Suggestions are better received than simple negative comments that don't further the discussion. So here goes:

 

However, if you're going to make one infraction based on a percentage of the number of shooters, then would it not make the logicical progression to assign all penalties values on the same basis. I already see issues as a disparity in the value of the penalty based on the size of one match to another. But within a match it means the value of an infraction is constant from fastest to the slowest shooter.

 

I do like the idea of increasing the value of the MSV, and sorta think it should be elevated to the level of the SOG. But, then the actual infractions need to be reviewed in order to insure that the action is truly a MSV.

 

But, as a true compromise, I think shot value scoring is a good start, but would like to see penalties also reflected as the percentage of shots. But whether to make a miss, for example, 1/24th of the fastest, slowest or median time for the stage is a huge quandry.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Griff

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Then, there those of us who feel total time doesn't represent different scenarios on all stages.

 

Suggestions are better received than simple negative comments that don't further the discussion. So here goes:

 

However, if you're going to make one infraction based on a percentage of the number of shooters, then would it not make the logicical progression to assign all penalties values on the same basis. I already see issues as a disparity in the value of the penalty based on the size of one match to another. But within a match it means the value of an infraction is constant from fastest to the slowest shooter.

 

I do like the idea of increasing the value of the MSV, and sorta think it should be elevated to the level of the SOG. But, then the actual infractions need to be reviewed in order to insure that the action is truly a MSV.

 

But, as a true compromise, I think shot value scoring is a good start, but would like to see penalties also reflected as the percentage of shots. But whether to make a miss, for example, 1/24th of the fastest, slowest or median time for the stage is a huge quandry.

You're liable to get a warning for actually replying to the OP

 

CR

[Griff]

You're liable to get a warning for actually replying to the OP

 

CR

Well, just slap me silly! (It's just a figure of speech, not an actual invite)!

[Bramble Mountain Buzzard]

Very slightly off topic. Why does a spent case left on the carrier and a live round on the carrier, bear the same penalty? One's potential is pretty much nil and the other catastrophic!

[Blastmaster]

Very slightly off topic. Why does a spent case left on the carrier and a live round on the carrier, bear the same penalty? One's potential is pretty much nil and the other catastrophic!

Don;'t know!!!

 

Why do you ask???

[Hairtrigger Hayes]

I prefer rank points for this simple reason, they favor the more consistent shooter. I've been at matches where I wasn't the fastest shooter but at the end of the day I was most consistent (no misses, no Ps) and won top gun. A good example would be Wyatt Earp. Not the fastest gun but always hit his target thereby proclaiming him the WINNER!

 

I do respect and agree with the safety aspect of the OP though, and agree an MSV might need to carry more weight under any scoring system.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Something certainly needs to be done on this scoring and timing. There are fellas whipping me by 5-10 even 15-20 seconds or more and I know for a fact I am smarter and more good looking than they are. I think I discovered what is going on. Now, I am no science expert but I do watch the X-files and occasionally the Discovery Channel. There seems to be these "alien abductions" and loss of time and something called a"disturbance of the space time continuum." I ain't no math whiz either but this is the only thing that adds up.

So, my question is how does SASS accommodate for those of us handicapped by cosmic forces?

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I prefer rank points for this simple reason, they favor the more consistent shooter. I've been at matches where I wasn't the fastest shooter but at the end of the day I was most consistent (no misses, no Ps) and won top gun. A good example would be Wyatt Earp. Not the fastest gun but always hit his target thereby proclaiming him the WINNER!

 

I do respect and agree with the safety aspect of the OP though, and agree an MSV might need to carry more weight under any scoring system.

... I have beaten a fellow shooter on 7 of 10 stages , had two less misses ,been less than 1/2 second slower than him on 3 stages and 63 seconds faster on total time and he beat me in RANK Points !!!!

I guess he was more CONSISTENT than me, in being slower shooting and missing more ...

 

If this is the Consistancey that rank point rewards ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Then RANK really is a Great discription of this method of scoring ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Edited September 13, 2013 by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217

[Hoss]

...I have beaten a fellow shooter on 7 of 10 stages , had two less misses ,been less than 1/2 second slower than him on 3 stages and 63 seconds faster on total time and he beat me in RANK Points !!!!

I guess he was more CONSISTENT than me, in being slower shooting and missing more ...

 

If this is the Consistancey that rank point rewards ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Then RANK really is a Great discription of this method of scoring ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Jabez, I'm kind of with you, I think TT is the way to go. But, aint nobody asked me (or likely to! ) I've been looking at this issue with somewhat of an open mind, since I aint likely going to win any matches either way, its somewhat easier to be objective. I would be interested if you could post or PM me the detailed scores in theis match, so I could look at them and see how this could happen. Seems pretty unusual, and I am in agreement, 63 seconds slower, with more misses, yet ahead in rank points makes no sense!

Edited September 13, 2013 by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217

[Griff]

... I have beaten a fellow shooter on 7 of 10 stages , had two less misses ,been less than 1/2 second slower than him on 3 stages and 63 seconds faster on total time and he beat me in RANK Points !!!!

I guess he was more CONSISTENT than me, in being slower shooting and missing more ...

 

If this is the Consistancey that rank point rewards ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Then RANK really is a Great discription of this method of scoring ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Ah, and this is THE point, how many other folks beat you on those 3 stages. There were other competitors than just you two, right?

 

You can't "cherry pick" a coupla facts and expect not to get called out on it. I'm a rather consistent shooter... consistently poor, but... whether I finish 27th or 57th, each of my stage rankings is generally within 2-3 of that overall ranking.

 

Remember, RP ain't about the time, it's about placement. If you slow down, just a hair on a fast stage (stand & deliver) and 57 other people don't... you weren't consistent!

Edited September 13, 2013 by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217

[Griff]

I'm going to be really cruel, it doesn't matter why you think you lost... complaining about and blaming the scoring system is "un-cowboy". Face it, regardless of the scoring system, he doesn't necessarily need to "beat you", he just has to let you "beat yourself". But, under RP, he can get a LOT of anonomynous help if you have a trainwreck.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

...I have beaten a fellow shooter on 7 of 10 stages , had two less misses ,been less than 1/2 second slower than him on 3 stages and 63 seconds faster on total time and he beat me in RANK Points !!!!

I guess he was more CONSISTENT than me, in being slower shooting and missing more ...

 

If this is the Consistancey that rank point rewards ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Then RANK really is a Great discription of this method of scoring ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Howdy Jabez.

 

about 2 years back, I was at a 5 stage monthly match.

 

I won 4 of the stages. I had a miss on one of the stages that the top 10 shooters didn't have a miss. BUT, those top 10 shooters did have a miss on other stages.

 

Anyhow, I earned 11 rank points on that stage for a total of 15 rank on the day (best of my memory).

 

I placed 2nd to the shooter who ranked with 8 or 10 points and only won 1 of those stages.

 

I agree with you that sometimes, consistency isn't the name of the game but rather the point and time your inconsistency happens determines the size of its ill effects (I hope I stated that right. Sounds to phylosophical to me)....

 

 

..........Widder

Edited September 13, 2013 by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217

[Griff]

Widder,

 

I would unequivocably say you were consistent for those 4 stages. Would you say you were as consistent for that 5th? If that was your only miss, I would offer that you weren't.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Griff.

 

For the whole match, most of the top 5 or 6 shooters were consistent within their realm of efficiency. If I recall correctly, each one of them had a miss. My total time was better than anyone. My miss just happen to cost me the most rank points on that particular stage.

 

I did finish 2nd Overall. If my memory serves me well, the Top Gun for the match placed 2nd on the 4 stages that I won and 1st place on the stage where I had a miss. My miss costed me more rank points than his miss.

 

My thoughts are that consistency can have its variables also.

 

 

..........Widder

[Litl Red]

Howdy Jabez.

 

about 2 years back, I was at a 5 stage monthly match.

 

I won 4 of the stages. I had a miss on one of the stages that the top 10 shooters didn't have a miss. BUT, those top 10 shooters did have a miss on other stages.

 

Anyhow, I earned 11 rank points on that stage for a total of 15 rank on the day (best of my memory).

 

I placed 2nd to the shooter who ranked with 8 or 10 points and only won 1 of those stages.

 

I agree with you that sometimes, consistency isn't the name of the game but rather the point and time your inconsistency happens determines the size of its ill effects (I hope I stated that right. Sounds to phylosophical to me)....

 

 

..........Widder

 

When you earned 11 rank points that meant 10 other people finished ahead of you on that stage alone.

 

Rank points really is a count of how many people finished ahead of you in the entire match (minus the number of stages in the match). It gives you a value for your performance over all the stages. Think of it as how many times you were beaten that day.

 

The guy who came in 2nd with 8 or 10 points..... You won 4 stages so the best he could have done on them was 2nd. That'd give him 8 points for those 4 of the 5 stages. So he probably won the match with 9 or 10 points. That meant for the entire 5 stages, he was beaten 8 or 9 times that match.

 

He finished with 9 or 10 points. How often was he beaten? Either 4 or 5 times.

You finished with 15 points. How often were you beaten? 10 times.

 

Who got beaten the most that day?

 

Rank is just a scoring system. It makes a pretty good job of showing how many times each entrant had someone finish better than they did.

 

Matches that have a lot of different length stages, rank is a very good way to pick the best shooter. With matches where all the stages take very little time, rank still shows what it shows. However, speed is the name of the game, and rank isn't a speed result. So using TT is probably the most suitable way to score today's matches.

[Knarley Bob]

Hell, no matter how ya score the match, some of us is ALLWAYS ridin' drag

[Utah Bob #35998]

 

Hell, no matter how ya score the match, some of us is ALLWAYS ridin' drag

Yup. At the end of the day I reckon I don't care. To much math for me anyways. Whatever the majority (which is to say the WB) decides.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Utah Bob #35998

[Hairtrigger Hayes]

Wider, your point almost answers itself. RP takes stage difficulty into account to a certain degree. If you were fastest yet just one miss cost you 10 rank points the stage was undoubtedly a simpler stage or one where an inconsistency would affect you more.

 

Anyway, RP or TT, I ain't about to quit or even slow down. This is the best damned game I've ever played!!!

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

In Classic Cowboy shooting big bore, hammered double, and duelist the effects of a miss or train wreck can be astronomical. A rifle jam on a 25 sec stage that becomes a 45 sec stage, as HH observes when it happens on a relatively fast stage at a major match, a CCowboy may suddenly pick up 100-300 RP's and it may change the placement 5-10 places.

 

Now that the WBAS has ironed some of the bugs out of that system it may be time to back test it into SASS to see what the results might be.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

With rank scoring, it can be like in a football game as to the impact of a problem. Say that two teams are nearly equal. Your team fumbles on your 10 yard line which resulted in the opponent quickly scoring. The opponent also fumbled, but on you 30 yard line. And you were able to defend that distance better.

 

Or a gunfight where it is at more distance with barriers. Both folks miss some. and it doesn't matter too much.

 

In another gunfight, it is up close with no barriers. One miss may and that fumble was fatal....

 

But Bud points out a weakness in that if you are competing towards the bottom of the bunch. You are being beat a little by your pard, then he screws up and gets a P and a MS. But since you are low on the board, that doesn't result in many rank points lost at all. So you still lose. His suggestion would largely improve that.

 

I lost first place in my category by one rank point but was 1 second faster. But I realized that slight fumble on a fast stage did me in. I was beaten fair and square.

[stepnmud#33546]

Rank points I understand, good or bad. What is the T.T. penalty for a stage DQ as opposed to R.S.?

[Yusta B.]

Rank points I understand, good or bad. What is the T.T. penalty for a stage DQ as opposed to R.S.?

TT - Basically 1 miss for each target + 30 sec. 24 target stage would be 150 sec.

RP - 999 sec

[stepnmud#33546]

OK. So a shooter with a 6 stage match shoots a 200 second match, but gets a stage DQ and a shooter with a 300 second stage and clean and would pull ahead because a 150 sec. added to a total of 350 sec.?

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

When you earned 11 rank points that meant 10 other people finished ahead of you on that stage alone.

 

Rank points really is a count of how many people finished ahead of you in the entire match (minus the number of stages in the match). It gives you a value for your performance over all the stages. Think of it as how many times you were beaten that day.

 

The guy who came in 2nd with 8 or 10 points..... You won 4 stages so the best he could have done on them was 2nd. That'd give him 8 points for those 4 of the 5 stages. So he probably won the match with 9 or 10 points. That meant for the entire 5 stages, he was beaten 8 or 9 times that match.

 

He finished with 9 or 10 points. How often was he beaten? Either 4 or 5 times.

You finished with 15 points. How often were you beaten? 10 times.

 

Who got beaten the most that day?

 

Rank is just a scoring system. It makes a pretty good job of showing how many times each entrant had someone finish better than they did.

 

Matches that have a lot of different length stages, rank is a very good way to pick the best shooter. With matches where all the stages take very little time, rank still shows what it shows. However, speed is the name of the game, and rank isn't a speed result. So using TT is probably the most suitable way to score today's matches.

All I'll say is in total time all recieve 5 sec for a miss, 10 sec for a MS an 10 sec for a proc. SAME ACROSS THA BOARD! Anytime a person takes that total time score + penaltys an manapulates it into another outcome someone gets screwed!

Bar none! simple as that. One cannot figure RP without first figuring TT!

 

When I first started shootin we had a club wid 10 sec misses, I loved it cause wid a 10 sec miss Harland wolff could not practice pushing tha envalope cause I'd hold back an shoot clean. Wid him having only one miss I'd beat him even though i was 25 sec behind him, cause their wasn't any shooters between us normally.

Did I beat him, Hell no! Tha cussed scoring system beat him!

RP rewards mediocre shooting as far as I'm concerned

 

 

RRR

[Widder, SASS #59054]

RP rewards mediocre shooting as far as I'm concerned

 

 

RRR

 

I'll add another thought to that.

 

A fast runner enters a big track meet. This is a rank point track meet.

 

The contest consist of 5 individual laps around the track. Each lap is timed and runners rest alittle between each lap before the whole group starts another lap.

 

Runner #1 burns on the first 4 laps while the rest of the runners walk fast. Runner #1 ends each lap about 30 seconds ahead of the fastest walker.

 

On the last portion of the whole track meet, Runner #1 takes off in another fast run, falls and twist an angle. All the other runners decide to finally JOG around the track and some of them come in ahead of Runner #1.

 

The fastest Jogger wins the overall track meet.....not the fastest runner.

 

 

..........Widder

Edited September 14, 2013 by Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054

[Griff]

This discussion shouldn't have devolved into a RP vs TT discussion.

 

There's ALWAYS two sides to a coin; TT encourages running beyond the ragged edge, sometimes relying on luck. RP is a decathalon, don't fall on yer face in any event. What I still have the harest time justifying in TT is why any place finish is not equal to that same place finish on any other stage. But then, I don't see how they can say "WB ain't CAS with 1911s..." with a straight face, when they don't allow 7 shot strings?

[Badlands Bud #15821]

This discussion shouldn't have devolved into a RP vs TT discussion.

 

Yeah. I can guarantee you that the OP didn't intend that.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Coming back nearer to the original direction of this thread: SASS is the ONLY shooting organization on the planet that has "minor safeties". Every other sport has either SDQ's or MDQ's for safety violations. As a matter of fact I can only think of a couple that even have SDQ's. If you incur a safety infraction of any kind in almost all shooting sports it is a Match Disqualification. In an effort to be "kinder and gentler" SASS has created a bunch of problems for itself over the years.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Coming back nearer to the original direction of this thread: SASS is the ONLY shooting organization on the planet that has "minor safeties". Every other sport has either SDQ's or MDQ's for safety violations. As a matter of fact I can only think of a couple that even have SDQ's. If you incur a safety infraction of any kind in almost all shooting sports it is a Match Disqualification. In an effort to be "kinder and gentler" SASS has created a bunch of problems for itself over the years.

Hi HJ,

 

I recently noticed that, in one CAS-related discipline, a dropped unloaded gun is a SDQ; a dropped loaded gun is a MDQ. No quibbling about where it came to rest and the direction it was pointing at that time.

 

That said, there was still flexibility about a prop failure.

 

Regards,

 

AM

[Widder, SASS #59054]

This discussion shouldn't have devolved into a RP vs TT discussion.

 

Yep, part of my bad.

 

back to the topci:

 

Buds OP has merit. Maybe someone alittle up the chain of command might check it out.

 

 

..........Widder

[Kirk James]

I would hope that those who make the decisions in SASS would look into the finals of EOT and into Bud's idea. I do not want to take away from Savage Sam's championship. He won it under the current rules that have been used for years and is the champion. I do believe that any contest should evaluate the results and see if the rules are turning out the outcome they are trying to achieve such as the fastest, most consistent etc....When you look at the total times of the no. 2 and 4 shooter overall and the no. of stages won by these shooters, I do see a situation that needs attention and Bud's proposal should be looked at.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I would hope that those who make the decisions in SASS would look into the finals of EOT and into Bud's idea. I do not want to take away from Savage Sam's championship. He won it under the current rules that have been used for years and is the champion. I do believe that any contest should evaluate the results and see if the rules are turning out the outcome they are trying to achieve such as the fastest, most consistent etc....When you look at the total times of the no. 2 and 4 shooter overall and the no. of stages won by these shooters, I do see a situation that needs attention and Bud's proposal should be looked at.

 

That being said Sam shot the match that was in front of him. He's capable of turning in much faster times but with faster times comes higher risks. He played the game. He was the best at the game that weekend. We all knew how we would be scored when when we started. Knowing just how tough it is to stretch out 12 stages over three days and looking at the scores he shot one heck of a match.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Some folks have commented on using the Wild Bunch scoring system. I would RESIST using it for several reasons. The first is that it uses round count as the determining factor for a how a stage is scored. If you "win" a stage with a high round count then you are rewarded with more points than if you win a stage with a lower round count. Yet a high round count does not guarantee how difficult a stage is. Reloads, movement, target distance are ignored. For example. A Stand and deliver stage with ten rifle rounds and 6 pump shotgun rounds and only two pistol reloads is worth 260 points for example yet a stage with 5 pistol strings at long ranges from say three different would only be worth 250 points.

Additionally when the score sheets are posted you cannot verify the scores by comparing them with your personal score sheet. The raw times and misses are not posted just the percentage to the "winner".

If you want to rank within a category then just use the existing rank system and set it up within a category.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Other shooting sports are not relevant. For example. They don't allow re-holstering until you are finished shooting, they only load at the line and they unload at the line under the instruction of the TO. The other disciplines use safety barrels for the long guns and they must put the safety on when staging or re-staging. Additionally most of the stages they shoot require them to move down range. For the most part we shoot side to side. We use a loading table and allow folks to re-holster and we do these things because our discipline has unique types of firearms and we don't have manual safeties on most of our firearms.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Joe LaFives #5481