Rules of The Game

[Singin' Sue 71615]

So....every board game you buy has a list of rules and 'pieces' you will need to play that game. In order to play, you must follow the rules, and the rules are the same for everyone playing the game, right?

You don't play Yahtzee with 4 dice, or a card game with 49 cards....it just doesn't work!!!

Why then do some folks think our game is any different?

Please, Please for EVERY new member...read your rule book!!! It is easy to download off the SASS page! Know what the rules are, and if you are not sure what meaning the rule has, ask someone!!

I hope he doesn't mind, but Black Jack Zack was our ROI instructor when we first joined. I can't recall the situation, but I said you should be leinent with new shooters because blah, blah, blah.

He answered Why? and NO...because in the long run it will cause problems. Rules are there for consistencey, and consistencey keeps the rules.

I write this in the aftermath of losing a shooter to our club, partly and mostly I think to personality of the shooter, but a great deal to allowing a new shooter get away with infractions over and over again. Ie: breaking the 170 with unloaded shotgun, ect.

After talking with this shooter, I was told that they would not return, that it was supposed to be fun, and each time they came out to shoot, someone told them they couldn't do this or that....and after a SDQ for the 170 rule...wich they felt silly...they would not be back.

I have heard of several clubs lately that are Lax in the rule area. Is yours one?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Sue,

 

A shooter shouldn't need more than one warning about the 170. If anyone feels our safety rules are silly and doesn't come back because of that, it's their loss.

 

I've not shot at a club that I consider lax with safety.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Anvil Al #59168]

You do shooters new or old. A dis-service by NOT calling things.

 

And if a shooter can not handle that. New or old. Then maybe it is time for them to go.

[Turkey Creek Red, SASS # 22854]

+2

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Black Jack Zack is correct.

 

GG ~

[Guest Chance Ramsay, SASS#18962]

The first time they shoot I inform them of the rules and if they break a rule I do my best to stress the importance of safety and there is no "letting it go" unsaid. But the next time they come to shoot they are told: You must follow the all the rules and if they can't they are asked to leave.

Chance

[Boon Doggle]

If a shooter is unable to understand simple safety rules, or so arrogant that he feels thy do not apply to him the club is better off letting him walk. Keeping someone around with that mind set is going to cost the club, and it's members, more in the long run than loosing out on a $20.00 monthly shoot fee.

 

SASS has an excellent safety record. It is the responsibility of all of us to make certain it stays that way.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Newbies, or veteran shooters, if you can't follow or abide by rules, especially were firearms are involved, need to part ways. Rules and penalties need to apply, to apply and given as warranted by actions. Not giving, or enforcing is doing a disservice, and allowing repeated bad handling of firearms. MT

[Hoss]

When I started this game, I read the rules before I ever bought a gun or went to observe my first match. I asked lots of queastions (all happily answered) I read and re-read the rules, especially the safety rules so that I think I know them as well as anybody. I am hopefull to take the RO classes soon.

 

I think anybody interested ought to read the rules, and understand them before picking up a gun. Basic gun handling rules apply of course, plus a few others like the 170 rule and muzzles up. New shooters should be reminded of the rules, I would not be too overbearing on them as safety allows, but new shooters should definitly be told. I recently visited another club and shot with them. There were 2 brand new to SASS shooters there, although both had shot in other diciplines. both were having a hard time keeping their muzzles up whjen going from firing line to offloading table and had to be reminded several times.

 

Some thoughts:

 

A little leeway in the rules for a first time CAS shooter is OK, maybe let them re-start a stage if they get confused or have the proverbial train wreck, or help them with the "cross draw shuffle" obviously, cant let unsafe shooters run amuk, but cutting a little slack on the 170 rule is OK. Obviously, sweeping the whole range would be frowned upon, but we need to coach new shooters, not scare them away.

 

New shooters should be assigned a "mentor" who walks with them thru each stage and makes sure they understand the safety rules. Can also give them little pointers along the way.

 

A match is not the place to learn how to shoot!

 

Every member has a duty to know and follow the rules. Each of us should re-read the rulebook periodically. Its easy to fall into a bad habit.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I think we should show patience while explaining the rules but not be lenient in the enforcement of the rules. Assigning a good mentor to new shooters is a good way to go.

[Bad Hand]

Some thoughts:

 

A little leeway in the rules for a first time CAS shooter is OK, maybe let them re-start a stage if they get confused or have the proverbial train wreck, or help them with the "cross draw shuffle" obviously, cant let unsafe shooters run amuk, but cutting a little slack on the 170 rule is OK. Obviously, sweeping the whole range would be frowned upon, but we need to coach new shooters, not scare them away.

 

There is no "cross draw shuffle" nor "dance", nor should any "slack" be cut on the 170 rule.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

Some thoughts:

 

A little leeway in the rules for a first time CAS shooter is OK, maybe let them re-start a stage if they get confused or have the proverbial train wreck, or help them with the "cross draw shuffle" obviously, cant let unsafe shooters run amuk, but cutting a little slack on the 170 rule is OK. Obviously, sweeping the whole range would be frowned upon, but we need to coach new shooters, not scare them away.

There is no "cross draw shuffle" nor "dance", nor should any "slack" be cut on the 170 rule.

 

 

IMO...that bears repeating.

[Hoss]

Maybe I mispoke. cutting slack not exactly what I meant, but rather making sure that new shooters understand what is meant, and having a mentor close by would help with that. I think some diciplines prefer a muzzle down carry, so that masy take some re-training. I know when my Uncle taught me gun safety he always had me carry a shotgun muzzle down because while hunting, if you tripped and fell, a gun with muzzle up was certaily going to wind up sweeping the area, while a muzzle down was less likely to. Made sense to me then, and still does now, so it took a little re-training for me to remember to carry muzzle up.

 

Sorry if I riled the language police, but I've seen it referred to as the cross draw shuffle or dance on here many times. whatever yopu want to call it it OK with me. And I see folks at nearly every shoot not properly executing a cross draw or re-holster. In my opinion (and I use a crossdraw) even if a shooter stands with left hip pointing downrange, (stanging sidways to firing line) when drawing or re-holdstering there is almost no way they dont break the 170. I see some hardly shift at all. And for that matter, drawing strong side is the same. the muzzle breaks the 170 vertically. I want to be safe, and I think I am, and I want every other shooter around me to be safe, but new shooters have to be taught the proper " SASS approved" methods. I guess that is what I meant by cutting a little slack.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

This isn't a "language police" issue...it's a RULES issue and proper application thereof.

 

New shooters should be made aware of the rules BEFORE handling loaded firearms on the firing line.

 

REF: SHB pp. 22-23 / RO1 pp. 18-19 (#21)

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

What don't folks understand about, ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED, AND TREAT'EM AS SUCH.

I will never give slack in gun safety.

A shooter's 'train-wreck', that's another subject...

LG

[Anvil Al #59168]

Maybe I mispoke. cutting slack not exactly what I meant, but rather making sure that new shooters understand what is meant, and having a mentor close by would help with that. I think some diciplines prefer a muzzle down carry, so that masy take some re-training. I know when my Uncle taught me gun safety he always had me carry a shotgun muzzle down because while hunting, if you tripped and fell, a gun with muzzle up was certaily going to wind up sweeping the area, while a muzzle down was less likely to. Made sense to me then, and still does now, so it took a little re-training for me to remember to carry muzzle up.

 

Sorry if I riled the language police, but I've seen it referred to as the cross draw shuffle or dance on here many times. whatever yopu want to call it it OK with me. And I see folks at nearly every shoot not properly executing a cross draw or re-holster. In my opinion (and I use a crossdraw) even if a shooter stands with left hip pointing downrange, (stanging sidways to firing line) when drawing or re-holdstering there is almost no way they dont break the 170. I see some hardly shift at all. And for that matter, drawing strong side is the same. the muzzle breaks the 170 vertically. I want to be safe, and I think I am, and I want every other shooter around me to be safe, but new shooters have to be taught the proper " SASS approved" methods. I guess that is what I meant by cutting a little slack.

 

 

Depends on what the cant is on the holster. Where they wear the holster, and how they stand when drawing and reholstering.

 

You get it right. You don't have to move or do no dang dance.

[Hoss]

This isn't a "language police" issue...it's a RULES issue and proper application thereof.

 

New shooters should be made aware of the rules BEFORE handling loaded firearms on the firing line.

 

REF: SHB pp. 22-23 / RO1 pp. 18-19 (#21)

i'm not arguing the rules, just the terminology. Bad Hand said there is no "cross draw shuffle" or dance. I think we are all in agreement that some twisting or resetting of feet is required to draw/re-holster from a crossdraw rig. Whatever one wants to call it, at a minimum, a pretty hard twist is required. I prefer to reset my feet. I always draw the crossdraw gun first. It may cost me a nanosecond if the stage is laid out to better accomodate my strongside first, but I have found I would rather just stick to the crossdraw first. and I basically take a step back with my right foot, twisting my body to the right before drawing . some more flexible folks may be able to do it without the step. Most of them probably break the 170 when they do so. As in baseball, calling the balk is subjective, and so is calling the 170. if its obvious, it must be called, if its close, the shooter needs a reminder. if the shooter continues to accidentally cut it close, he needs to be penalized and training. If the shooter intentionally cuts it close to gain an advantage, he needs to be severely penalized, and maybe asked to not come back.

[Grizzly Dave]

Hoss, I don't shoot a crossdraw, so can't tell ya how it is done without a twist or a shuffle, but there are folks who can do it safely, and within the rules. For someone just starting out, especially if they have little or no competition shooting experience, I personally would recommend that they 'do the dance' at the beginning at least until someone shows them how to safely draw the crossdraw pistol otherwise. For this reason when I'm outfitting a new shooter I try to make sure the holsters are double strong side, or have them work with an experienced cross draw shooter on how to draw the cross draw.

[Utah Bob #35998]

The issue is not whether crossdraw dances and gynmastics are required but rather that established rules need to be followed by all participants in the sport. This should be impressed upon new members (and some old ones as well). We aren't playing with cap pistols.

The rules on costuming and behavior are also important, although you might think form some discussions they are not. When one area of official rules gets ignored it becomes much easier to begin to look the other way at other violations.

If rules are bad, we have a lot of good people who work to improve them. I've seen it done many times in the past decade.

If folks just can't bring themselves to follow the regulations set down, then I would submit they should find another hobby where they will be happier.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I'm hoping this shooter doesn't visit any other SASS Club in the area and would prefer he avoid other shooting sports and shooting ranges in general. One who does not subscribe to the basics of firearms safety would be better off playing video games for recreation.

[Hoss]

I hope everybody understands I am not condoning not enforcing rules. I follow the rules to the best of my ability and understanding. I've called rule infractions on myself. I shoot safely, and expect others to as well. And there is no excuse for not reading the rule book. As evidenced by all of the "you make the call" threads on here, not everybody understands the meaning of every rule.

[Wyatt]

Hoss

 

Here is one of the best in Fl, Arcadia Outlaw, shooting crossdraw with no twist or dance, this just happens to be a stand and deliver.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

i'm not arguing the rules, just the terminology. Bad Hand said there is no "cross draw shuffle" or dance. I think we are all in agreement that some twisting or resetting of feet is required to draw/re-holster from a crossdraw rig. Whatever one wants to call it, at a minimum, a pretty hard twist is required. I prefer to reset my feet. I always draw the crossdraw gun first. It may cost me a nanosecond if the stage is laid out to better accomodate my strongside first, but I have found I would rather just stick to the crossdraw first. and I basically take a step back with my right foot, twisting my body to the right before drawing . some more flexible folks may be able to do it without the step. Most of them probably break the 170 when they do so. As in baseball, calling the balk is subjective, and so is calling the 170. if its obvious, it must be called, if its close, the shooter needs a reminder. if the shooter continues to accidentally cut it close, he needs to be penalized and training. If the shooter intentionally cuts it close to gain an advantage, he needs to be severely penalized, and maybe asked to not come back.

You are soooooooo wrong it's scary.

 

I don't "dance" nor do I break the 170 rule. You call a 170 violation on me for not doing a "dance", we'z gunna have a problem.

 

Coming close to violating the 170 is JUST that...coming close. You have got to be kidding that you'd penalize someone for cutting it close...that they should be penalized severely cuz they do so to gain an advantage. Well duh! we do a lot to gain an advantage! So what! There's no rule violation for looking for ways to gain an advantage.

 

OY!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Phantom

[Hoss]

You are soooooooo wrong it's scary.

 

I don't "dance" nor do I break the 170 rule. You call a 170 violation on me for not doing a "dance", we'z gunna have a problem.

 

Coming close to violating the 170 is JUST that...coming close. You have got to be kidding that you'd penalize someone for cutting it close...that they should be penalized severely cuz they do so to gain an advantage. Well duh! we do a lot to gain an advantage! So what! There's no rule violation for looking for ways to gain an advantage.

 

OY!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Phantom

I never said penalize for cutting it close I said if somebody (especially a new shooter) is cutting it close they should be instructed or reminded. If they obviously break the 170 more than once the should be penalized.

 

I don't carry a protractor to measure angles. I figure if I see that big ole black hole at the end of a barrel then it must be past the 180 which would equal a penalty. If a new shooter is not properly executing a cross draw as not to break the 170 then they need to be coached. If they continue then penalize. If an experienced shooter is not properly executing a cross draw to gain a nanosecond then they need to have the approriate penalty applied. Of course it's hard to judge intent. I know the SH specifically says care must be taken when using a cross draw. The SH says a twist. I've heard others call it a shuffle or dance. If you can do it without twisting or shuffling or dancing good for you.

 

Obviously nobody wants to call a penalty on a fellow shooter. However, as shooters we have a duty to be safe, and keep others safe.

 

I've seen shooters try to balance a rifle on a table so that they might gain a small advantage in picking it up quicker, or they throw their gun down quickly at the end of a string, and it slides on the table. If that gun falls, I would have no mercy or pity on the shooter for earning a SDQ or a MDQ. If a shooter drops a gun because they trip, slip or something like that, while the penalty if they drop the gun would have to be assessed, I would feel bad about it.

 

I'm not sure how I got on so many folks bad side. All I want is to shoot safe, have fun, and improve my skill set. I'm not shooting against anybody but myself. I don't want to beat anybody because they had a miss or a penalty, I just want to do my best. In fact, I intentionally don't listen to my times when I shoot. I do look later, and see how I did. I'm never going to be a speed merchant. If I have to be the fastest to have fun, I'll never have fun. Thas the best part f this game. We can all do what we need to do to gain as much enjoyment as we can, as long as we do it safely.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Hoss,

 

Don't worry about it.

 

There are some hot button topics. You just found one, namely the "cross-draw dance." Others are light loads vs manly loads, gamers vs just-in-it-for-the-fun, short strokes vs out-of-the-box... They've been debated, discussed, and cussed so much that folks get testy when they come up.

 

These threads fade away and folks will forget what you wrote. You're new here and everyone will cut you some slack.

 

Happy shooting!

 

Just Allie Mo (not the SWA)

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I never said penalize for cutting it close I said if somebody (especially a new shooter) is cutting it close they should be instructed or reminded. If they obviously break the 170 more than once the should be penalized.

 

I don't carry a protractor to measure angles. I figure if I see that big ole black hole at the end of a barrel then it must be past the 180 which would equal a penalty. If a new shooter is not properly executing a cross draw as not to break the 170 then they need to be coached. If they continue then penalize. If an experienced shooter is not properly executing a cross draw to gain a nanosecond then they need to have the approriate penalty applied. Of course it's hard to judge intent. I know the SH specifically says care must be taken when using a cross draw. The SH says a twist. I've heard others call it a shuffle or dance. If you can do it without twisting or shuffling or dancing good for you.

 

Obviously nobody wants to call a penalty on a fellow shooter. However, as shooters we have a duty to be safe, and keep others safe.

 

I've seen shooters try to balance a rifle on a table so that they might gain a small advantage in picking it up quicker, or they throw their gun down quickly at the end of a string, and it slides on the table. If that gun falls, I would have no mercy or pity on the shooter for earning a SDQ or a MDQ. If a shooter drops a gun because they trip, slip or something like that, while the penalty if they drop the gun would have to be assessed, I would feel bad about it.

 

I'm not sure how I got on so many folks bad side. All I want is to shoot safe, have fun, and improve my skill set. I'm not shooting against anybody but myself. I don't want to beat anybody because they had a miss or a penalty, I just want to do my best. In fact, I intentionally don't listen to my times when I shoot. I do look later, and see how I did. I'm never going to be a speed merchant. If I have to be the fastest to have fun, I'll never have fun. Thas the best part f this game. We can all do what we need to do to gain as much enjoyment as we can, as long as we do it safely.

Your posts are spreading mis-information. Therefore some of us will call that out so that others will learn.

 

Again, you reference the Shooter's Handbook as mentioning a Twist...as though the Handbook is saying that the Twist is a requirement...which it is NOT!

 

This has NOTHING to do with how fast one shoots...or how slow someone shoots...frankly, most of us don't give a rat's behind how fast someone shoots...it's completely irrelevent to the topic.

 

Also, when you make statements such as "to gain a nanosecond" demeans those that work hard...VERY hard to do just that.

 

So that in a nutshell is where I'm coming from.

 

Phantom

[Matthew Duncan]

Hi Hoss,

 

Don't worry about it.

 

There are some hot button topics. You just found one, namely the "cross-draw dance." Others are light loads vs manly loads, gamers vs just-in-it-for-the-fun, short strokes vs out-of-the-box... They've been debated, discussed, and cussed so much that folks get testy when they come up.

 

These threads fade away and folks will forget what you wrote. You're new here and everyone will cut you some slack.

 

Happy shooting!

 

Just Allie Mo (not the SWA)

Or wear their pant legs in their boots like a Townie or on the outside of their boots like a real Cowpoke

[Matthew Duncan]

Blasted Yankee iPhone double tap...

[Rio Brazos Kid]

You know, every time this subject comes up, it gets so out of hand and mean spirited, that it makes me want to vomit.

 

We all know that it ISN"T in the rules that you have to do the Dance, Shuffle, or Twist, when using the crossdraw. We understand that there are ways of doing it, without doing any of this. However, not all Shooters know how to do it, or can do it safely, without some movement. It may be that they arent wearing the holster correctly, or that the cant of the holster isn't just right for their physical body shape, or any one of several conditions may contribute to this. One thing we all know is that YOU CAN'T BREAK THE 170, without being penalized, and rightfully so.

 

If a person cannot use a Crossdraw without some movement, SO WHAT!! It's not illegal to move, twist, or shuffle, if thats what it takes for YOU PERSONALLY, to be able to use the crossdraw safely. Fact is that's what's desirable, if that's what it takes for YOU PERSONALLY to draw or holster safely.

 

Cut us some slack here. If you can do it without body movement, Power to You. Just don't treat those of us that DO need some body movement, as though we were doing something illegal or prohibited. It just ain't so.

 

RBK

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

I never said penalize for cutting it close I said if somebody (especially a new shooter) is cutting it close they should be instructed or reminded. If they obviously break the 170 more than once the should be penalized.

 

I don't carry a protractor to measure angles. I figure if I see that big ole black hole at the end of a barrel then it must be past the 180 which would equal a penalty. If a new shooter is not properly executing a cross draw as not to break the 170 then they need to be coached. If they continue then penalize. If an experienced shooter is not properly executing a cross draw to gain a nanosecond then they need to have the approriate penalty applied. Of course it's hard to judge intent. I know the SH specifically says care must be taken when using a cross draw. The SH says a twist. I've heard others call it a shuffle or dance. If you can do it without twisting or shuffling or dancing good for you.

 

Obviously nobody wants to call a penalty on a fellow shooter. However, as shooters we have a duty to be safe, and keep others safe.

 

I've seen shooters try to balance a rifle on a table so that they might gain a small advantage in picking it up quicker, or they throw their gun down quickly at the end of a string, and it slides on the table. If that gun falls, I would have no mercy or pity on the shooter for earning a SDQ or a MDQ. If a shooter drops a gun because they trip, slip or something like that, while the penalty if they drop the gun would have to be assessed, I would feel bad about it.

 

I'm not sure how I got on so many folks bad side. All I want is to shoot safe, have fun, and improve my skill set. I'm not shooting against anybody but myself. I don't want to beat anybody because they had a miss or a penalty, I just want to do my best. In fact, I intentionally don't listen to my times when I shoot. I do look later, and see how I did. I'm never going to be a speed merchant. If I have to be the fastest to have fun, I'll never have fun. Thas the best part f this game. We can all do what we need to do to gain as much enjoyment as we can, as long as we do it safely.

Curious.... If you are standing 20 feet from the shooter how far in front of you is the 170?

 

Stan

 

PS....it's 21 inches from the firing line......you could easily be several feet back from the firing line and still see the barrel of the gun and it still be within the 170.....the only requirement is to stay within the 170.

[J-BAR #18287]

Lets see,

 

A shooter gets embarrassed for getting called for a 170 violation and decides to quit the sport.

 

Well, bye.

[Blastmaster]

You know, every time this subject comes up, it gets so out of hand and mean spirited, that it makes me want to vomit.

 

We all know that it ISN"T in the rules that you have to do the Dance, Shuffle, or Twist, when using the crossdraw. We understand that there are ways of doing it, without doing any of this. However, not all Shooters know how to do it, or can do it safely, without some movement. It may be that they arent wearing the holster correctly, or that the cant of the holster isn't just right for their physical body shape, or any one of several conditions may contribute to this. One thing we all know is that YOU CAN'T BREAK THE 170, without being penalized, and rightfully so.

 

If a person cannot use a Crossdraw without some movement, SO WHAT!! It's not illegal to move, twist, or shuffle, if thats what it takes for YOU PERSONALLY, to be able to use the crossdraw safely. Fact is that's what's desirable, if that's what it takes for YOU PERSONALLY to draw or holster safely.

 

Cut us some slack here. If you can do it without body movement, Power to You. Just don't treat those of us that DO need some body movement, as though we were doing something illegal or prohibited. It just ain't so.

 

RBK

Well said!

[Billy Bristol]

After watching the video in post #22 I see why there was no dance.He is already standing at a slight angle and the holster is positioned more toward the middle of belly. Therefore no dance is needed. If someone wears his holster more toward the side a slight dance would probably be required unless he was standing at more of an angle.

So it would be helpful for someone to suggest to a new shooter to move his holster closer to center if they see him coming too close to the 170 rule until he has more experience with cowboy action shooting.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

You know, every time this subject comes up, it gets so out of hand and mean spirited, that it makes me want to vomit.

 

We all know that it ISN"T in the rules that you have to do the Dance, Shuffle, or Twist, when using the crossdraw. We understand that there are ways of doing it, without doing any of this. However, not all Shooters know how to do it, or can do it safely, without some movement. It may be that they arent wearing the holster correctly, or that the cant of the holster isn't just right for their physical body shape, or any one of several conditions may contribute to this. One thing we all know is that YOU CAN'T BREAK THE 170, without being penalized, and rightfully so.

 

If a person cannot use a Crossdraw without some movement, SO WHAT!! It's not illegal to move, twist, or shuffle, if thats what it takes for YOU PERSONALLY, to be able to use the crossdraw safely. Fact is that's what's desirable, if that's what it takes for YOU PERSONALLY to draw or holster safely.

 

Cut us some slack here. If you can do it without body movement, Power to You. Just don't treat those of us that DO need some body movement, as though we were doing something illegal or prohibited. It just ain't so.

 

RBK

You say that "we all know it isn't in the rules that you have to do the Dance....." and it has been repeatedly demonstrated here on the wire that not everyone knows that.......heck in this thread even.....I still hear it at Safety Meetings for matches.

 

Who said you couldn't do the dance?....

 

Stan

[Hoss]

Hi Hoss,

 

Don't worry about it.

 

There are some hot button topics. You just found one, namely the "cross-draw dance." Others are light loads vs manly loads, gamers vs just-in-it-for-the-fun, short strokes vs out-of-the-box... They've been debated, discussed, and cussed so much that folks get testy when they come up.

 

These threads fade away and folks will forget what you wrote. You're new here and everyone will cut you some slack.

 

Happy shooting!

 

Just Allie Mo (not the SWA)

 

 

Thanks Miss Allie Mo. I certainly had no intent to create or fuel such a controversy.