stock/unaltered/original guns

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

No.

 

There is no problem with him asking. He is new and just wanted to know.

 

The problem is when someone brings it up OVER AND OVER. Harps on it every chance he gets ON HERE.

 

But then turns around does not do one other thing, to try and get it off the ground. Does not even TRY, to get is started

on the local level. Just harps on it over and over on here.

 

There is when the person runs into problems and back lash.

 

As that gets SO old SO fast.

 

I haven't "brought it up" in more than a year unless asked (there was one thread about three months ago where someone asked what we though the sport was lacking -- I replied it was lacking a stock category, with statement I wasn't trying to pick a fight and that I only mentioned it because I was asked).

 

And I'm not picking a fight now, so we can't have one, no matter what has gotten old. The sport has headed down a road that I don't like. So mote it be.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I hope you have on asbestos underwear, because suggesting this idea will draw flames.

No, you get flammed when ALL you do is talk about a "Stock" category yet do ZERO about it.

 

It's an unobtainable category...don't believe me? Then go ahead and make up guidelines for the category and then try it out locally to see how it works.

 

YOU WON'T DO IT....NO ONE HAS nor WILL THEY...

 

OY!!!

[Anvil Al #59168]

I haven't "brought it up" in more than a year unless asked (there was one thread about three months ago where someone asked what we though the sport was lacking -- I replied it was lacking a stock category, with statement I wasn't trying to pick a fight and that I only mentioned it because I was asked).

 

And I'm not picking a fight now, so we can't have one, no matter what has gotten old. The sport has headed down a road that I don't like, and it continues to lie about itself in its promotional material. So mote it be.

 

 

Yes. You have been pretty good about not harping on it lately.

 

And don't know about going down the wrong path. NCOWS has that attitude and stock categories. But no shooters.

SASS numbers at matches is still better than most anyother shooting sport.

[Badlands Beady]

All the games you've mentioned employ paid professionals...

Yup, and professionals generally play against professionals. Below the professional level, however, high school teams don't play against junior high, varsity doesn't play against junior varsity, etc. Point being, players generally play against their own skill levels. I admit I have seen the Harlem Globetrotters play against high school teams (and lose), but those were special occasions. Seriously, what would you think if your (grand)child were required to compete against someone twice his/her age and skill, or not be allowed to play at all?

 

If you're in it to win a buckle then practice more rather than try to penalize others who are willing to make the sacrifices required to be an amateur unpaid champion.

I'm not in it to win a buckle, but it would be nice to think it wasn't hopelessly out of reach. And practice does not make perfect; it makes improvement, but improvement is relative. There are plenty of folks who could practice 24/7 and never have a prayer.

 

Who would be penalized? Just let the fast shooters compete against the fast shooters, the slow shooters against the slow shooters and the medium shooters against the medium shooters.

[Anvil Al #59168]

" Seriously, what would you think if your (grand)child were required to compete against someone twice his/her age and skill, or not be allowed to play at all?"

 

They don't have to in SASS either. We have aged based categoies in SASS.

 

And that is what we need. Break down the shooters we got with even MORE categories. Be nice to all have a category of one. So you

don't have to work to win.

[Bart Solo]

Buckles are buckles. I shoot in the senior category. I first started shooting anything after I turned 60 and last year I took 3rd in my category in my state competition. With a lot of work I might be able to win my category this year. At least that is my goal. There is no way on earth I will ever shoot as fast as anybody who is competitive at the Regional, National or World levels, but at State, I feel I might be competitive if I work hard. I guess my point is real simple. We shouldn't be concerned that we can't compete with Badlands Bud, Holy Terror or Rattlesnake Wrangler. Any of us can establish goals that are attainable in this sport. That is the beauty of all the categories we already have.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I've never viewed SASS/CAS as a Pro/Amateur type game or sport.

 

Where is the money?

Where are the corporate sponsors?

 

Sure, I'm well aware of some shooters who have excelled in their abilities to shoot their firearms. But I've never looked at it from the point of view that it all had to do with their special equipment.

 

Now, I will admit that the enhancement of some firearms 'CAN' be a positive factor in a shooters abilities to run it faster.

 

But I also know that a positive enhancement of a firearms doesn't necessarily relate to 'short strokes'.

 

I also know (personal witness) that some shooters can take a non-short stroked rifle and still run 10 shots in a sub 2 time.

 

And if anyone wants to view it for themselves, travel over to Doc Shiparo's Cowboy World Record page, ALL of the speed pistol videos were taken using non-short stroked Rugers. And without special hammers. Go figure that one out !

 

 

..........Widder

[Badlands Beady]

They don't have to in SASS either. We have aged based categoies in SASS.

 

And that is what we need. Break down the shooters we got with even MORE categories. Be nice to all have a category of one. So you

don't have to work to win.

Well, if you don't like the idea of skill-based categories, how 'bout we get rid of age-based, too? The only thing a 60-year old needs to beat a 30-year-old is more practice and harder work. If you get rid of clothing- and gender-based categories, we can all shoot against each other in one big category. At least a skill-based category makes more sense than clothing-based.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Easy enough -- you take unaltered examples of a '73, a '92 and a Marlin, and you open them on a table. Anything with a "shorter than stock" throw, as measured by comparison is not eligible for the stock category. Polishing and smoothing was done in the Old West and is allowed (duh). "Better and more durable? Sure, so long as the geometry of the action is still stock. It doesn't take an enormous rule book, it takes a desire to do it and a modicum of common sense.

 

And not every game that enforces such rules is full of paid professionals. IDPA has a version of it, and isn't making anyone famous.

 

The bottom line is, most people wanted the ability to shoot 21st century guns. They didn't want to shoot 19th century guns, because they couldn't shoot as fast with them as Hopalong Cassidy could with the help of special effects (they also can't do this with their 21st century guns, but that's beside the point). It's a darn shame, really, but that's where the sport went the minute they allowed modifications outside the modern category.

That sounds pretty easy, we'll take those guns and leave them disassembled on a table, plus a Ruger OMV, a NMV, all the variations of colts, better have a 66 too, how about Spencer, might need one of those I'm sure there's another dozen of so guns I've forgotten, shotguns too of course. I'm sure the match director won't mind bringing all those, disassembling them, then reassembling them. The shooter's will also be glad to bring in all their guns a couple of hours early, say about 6:00 am and strip them down then reassemble. Better get there first, it may be a long line.

 

BTW Oddnews I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I understand your desire and respect your right to have it, talk about it and promote it. I just don't think it's workable.

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

That sounds pretty easy, we'll take those guns and leave them disassembled on a table, plus a Ruger OMV, a NMV, all the variations of colts, better have a 66 too, how about Spencer, might need one of those I'm sure there's another dozen of so guns I've forgotten, shotguns too of course. I'm sure the match director won't mind bringing all those, disassembling them, then reassembling them. The shooter's will also be glad to bring in all their guns a couple of hours early, say about 6:00 am and strip them down then reassemble. Better get there first, it may be a long line.

 

BTW Oddnews I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I understand your desire and respect your right to have it, talk about it and promote it. I just don't think it's workable.

 

I doubt anyone with a Spencer would compete in the category. I want one, but I plan on using it for frontier cartridge. You don't have to disassemble any guns -- internal modifications are legal, right? All you have to do is demonstrate stock geometry -- no short stroking.

 

But apparently there'd be almost no competitors in this category, right? That being the case, the very few who wanted to compete might well be willing to show up early.

 

I'm obviously being somewhat sarcastic. The category will never exist, and the sport will remain what it is until someone figures out how to introduce semiautos...oh, wait.

[Blackwater 53393]

Sorry, Oddnews,. No semis in S.A.S.S. In Wild Bunch, yes. In S.A.S.S., if you listen , it may sound like it, but those are single action, "you gotta' cock it" guns you're hearing. Many of them stock too. It's just that almost nobody's interested in a stock gun category.

 

As far as shooting as fast as Hoppy, we've all seen our top shooters shoot ten shot rifle or pistol strings in just over two seconds. Some sub-two second strings have been seen as well. I never saw Hoppy, or any of our other matenee heroes do it, even when they doctored the film!

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

SASS v. Wild Bunch? A distinction without a difference.

[Blackwater 53393]

SASS v. Wild Bunch? A distinction without a difference.

 

Scored seperately, different rules, there's your difference. Simple!

[Anvil Al #59168]

But apparently there'd be almost no competitors in this category, right? That being the case, the very few who wanted to compete might well be willing to show up early.

 

I'm obviously being somewhat sarcastic. The category will never exist, and the sport will remain what it is until someone figures out how to introduce semiautos...oh, wait.

 

 

Try getting enough shooters that will shoot the category AT ALL to show up.

 

Let alone have enough signed up to make more than a category of ONE. At the few matches you could even get ONE.

 

Again. NCOWS HAS what you are looking for.

There is a reason they have 30-35 at a regional and SASS has 400.

 

But they have it. It's there for you. All you have to do is go shoot it.

 

Fact is. There are just not enough people that WANT IT. To bother with it.

 

We don't need categories of one.

[Wolfpack Jack]

Best info I've read yet about the nature of SASS competition. As another newbie, I would not want to see a "stock" category for us newbies...as in dumbing down the equipment for newcomers. But that may be because at my age I'm not going to win any speed contests anyway against any itchy twitchy 20-year-old (or 30, 40 or 50) I plan to shoot and have fun, I'll tweak my firearms as I see fit. Good thread, good opinions!

[Grizzly Dave]

Lots of ways to enjoy the game. If a group of friends wanted to do the stock guns thing, no reason they can't do it unofficially. Heck, there are a handful of folks I check my scores against across categories just to gauge how I did in a particular match.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

It's a great idea. We'd have a whole new class of gunsmiths who put burrs and rough spots on the internals of all your guns! We could even have a SUPER STOCK category where the stroke is lengthened.

 

CR

[Shooting Bull]

You don't have to disassemble any guns -- internal modifications are legal, right? All you have to do is demonstrate stock geometry -- no short stroking.

 

Funny, I thought short stroking WAS an internal modification???

[Hoss Shoer]

Wow!!!! did not know what pot I was stirring. Again wasn't suggesting any changes, I want to shoot with you guys down the road, don't want to be labeled a trouble maker.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Wow!!!! did not know what pot I was stirring. Again wasn't suggesting any changes, I want to shoot with you guys down the road, don't want to be labeled a trouble maker.

Don't worry about it. You aren't stirring any pot, this is the SASS wire. It doesn't resemble real life. This is just one of those "dead horse" issues and a lot of people like kicking it.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Wow!!!! did not know what pot I was stirring. Again wasn't suggesting any changes, I want to shoot with you guys down the road, don't want to be labeled a trouble maker.

 

 

Hoss,

 

as Larsen says, don't worry bout it.

 

Besides, Philly Slim already has the patent on being the Wire trouble maker.....

 

 

..........Widder

[McCandless]

Iff'n you wanna slow down and enjoy the scenery... when you can see it.... come on over to Frontiersman! Slower, louder, and smokier... that's our goal!

[Bart Solo]

Wow!!!! did not know what pot I was stirring. Again wasn't suggesting any changes, I want to shoot with you guys down the road, don't want to be labeled a trouble maker.

 

Your question is a good one. I asked it myself several years ago. Then I realized that if we traded guns the experienced shooters would still beat me. The biggest reason for race tuning is, as Nate Kiowa Jones says, the tuned gun is less likely to blow up than a stock gun. They are also more fun to shoot.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Folks there is ALREADY in place a system to measure the Shortest allowable Stroke ,,,,,,, What could be so hard in stating that to compete in a "StocK' class the stroke must be "TWO inches longer than the minium ....Quite easy wasn't that ???

Then use the factory Specs to determine the lenght of travel (hammer stroke) for pistols and anything more than an 1/4 inch shorter is modified ....

It isn't really all that hard to figure .............................. And most folks would be more than happy to comply !!!!

 

And measurement would only be needed on a rare occasion ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Shooting Bull]

Hoss,

 

as Larsen says, don't worry bout it.

 

Besides, Philly Slim already has the patent on being the Wire trouble maker.....

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

Hey now, that's just...............................uhhh..................hmmmmm.......................Dang, it's just the truth, ain't it?

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Folks there is ALREADY in place a system to measure the Shortest allowable Stroke ,,,,,,, What could be so hard in stating that to compete in a "StocK' class the stroke must be "TWO inches longer than the minium ....Quite easy wasn't that ???

Then use the factory Specs to determine the lenght of travel (hammer stroke) for pistols and anything more than an 1/4 inch shorter is modified ....

It isn't really all that hard to figure .............................. And most folks would be more than happy to comply !!!!

 

And measurement would only be needed on a rare occasion ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

True, if we can enforce the current standard we could enforce a different one. Well, thanks for pointing that out, but it doesn't matter.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Define....."stock" ?

That term is way to vaque.

 

OH-Heck YES, P-lilly Slim(e) is a well known trouble maker.

Just ask Sour Kraut and my Ima .

LG

[Bison Bud]

I own a short stroked 73 and a virtually stock Marlin rifle and I'd bet that my 10 shot sweeps with either are within a half second on just about any SASS course of fire. Most of this game is what you get used to using!

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Wow!!!! did not know what pot I was stirring. Again wasn't suggesting any changes, I want to shoot with you guys down the road, don't want to be labeled a trouble maker.

As others will tell you, this comes up from time to time - all you did was ask a fair question. Some here on the wire have strong feelings about it. If you loose to the guy with the short stroke, ask him to swap guns, I'll bet you'd still loose. Practice is the key to moving up in the standings. Smooth guns make it more enjoyable, they're also less likely to give you trouble.

 

Welcome to the fire and the FUN of SASS. Ask all the questions you care to, just don't pay attention to the soap box if it's gonna drag you down.

 

CR

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

True, if we can enforce the current standard we could enforce a different one.

Howdy Oddnews, you know pard, the last time this came up in a big way there was more than just a few of us that offered to support this and set up a guide line to go by. We suggested and offered to start it at the local level, just like we did with FCGF and Outlaw. Both of those non categories are now offered at most local, state, and above matches. A lota big matches will offer any non category that can sign up 5 or more shooters. So all you really have to do is start it, let the rubber meet the road.

But when we got to that point you balked, and said you didn't want to put any ground work into it like we did for FCGF. You wanted it to come straight from the SASS main office, like they should just swing their majic wand and "poof" Stock category. I'm sorry pard, but after that you lost the support many of us did offer. However, if you would like to try it again, I'd more than willing to start at the local level. Good Luck

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I was just sitting here and thinking that if 'Stock equals non-short stroke', then that would mean my Widdermatic is 'stock'.

 

That is a pleasant revelation.....

 

 

..........Widder

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I was just sitting here and thinking that if 'Stock equals non-short stroke', then that would mean my Widdermatic is 'stock'.

 

That is a pleasant revelation.....

 

 

..........Widder

I wuddnut gonna say a word about that but noooooooo.........

 

J R-E

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Hey JEDI Jefro,

 

do you think I oughta go hide now?

 

 

..........Widder

[Krazy Kajun]

I wonder if I can take my Widdermatic Marlin and shoot NCOWS...think they'd know any difference?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

No, you get flammed when ALL you do is talk about a "Stock" category yet do ZERO about it.

 

It's an unobtainable category...don't believe me? Then go ahead and make up guidelines for the category and then try it out locally to see how it works.

 

YOU WON'T DO IT....NO ONE HAS nor WILL THEY...so quit cryin' like a spoiled brat about it.

 

OY!!!

It is obvious that the old man Odd News has nothing else to do since he doesn't shoot so every few months he makes a fool of himself.