stock/unaltered/original guns

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Funny, I thought short stroking WAS an internal modification???

 

But its affects can be seen from the outside. That is how it is measured.

And IIRC some involve a different finger lever.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

A "little birdie" brought this thread my attention.

 

It seems that this topic, along with the heavy loads versus "mouse poofie" loads, always result in disagreements and that is okay as some of it is educational. Please be careful that you are not being rude or writing things that could potentially scare folks away.

 

Also, for years we've all heard "the Wire isn't SASS" due to some of the testy conversations that happen here. Please remember that people considering CAS for the first time read these forums and we want them to know what good folks we really are. I think the Wire should represent what it is like at a match, where friendliness and helpfulness is the norm.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Graywolf Tate]

Hi Folks,

 

A "little birdie" brought this thread my attention.

 

It seems that this topic, along with the heavy loads versus "mouse poofie" loads, always result in disagreements and that is okay as some of it is educational. Please be careful that you are not being rude or writing things that could potentially scare folks away.

 

Also, for years we've all heard "the Wire isn't SASS" due to some of the testy conversations that happen here. Please remember that people considering CAS for the first time read these forums and we want them to know what good folks we really are. I think the Wire should represent what it is like at a match, where friendliness and helpfulness is the norm.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

+ 1

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

I was just sitting here and thinking that if 'Stock equals non-short stroke', then that would mean my Widdermatic is 'stock'.

 

That is a pleasant revelation.....

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

This brings up the opportunity for someone to define what a stock gun would be. Perhaps some of the advocates for the category could come up with a definition and some guidelines for checking for stock only guns.

 

Blackfoot

[Captain Bill Burt]

Oddnews said as long as the 'geometry' of a long gun is the same as the originals were then it's 'stock'. So aluminum carriers, those new lifter springs, stainless mag springs, stainless followers, lever wraps, titanium firing pins, etc. and any amount of internal polishing and slicking should be fine. Just get rid of those dang short strokes and you're 'stock'.

[Griff]

Oddnews said as long as the 'geometry' of a long gun is the same as the originals were then it's 'stock'. So aluminum carriers, those new lifter springs, stainless mag springs, stainless followers, lever wraps, titanium firing pins, etc. and any amount of internal polishing and slicking should be fine. Just get rid of those dang short strokes and you're 'stock'.

Now that's funny right there! My guns are all modified... well... maybe except the rifle... I ain't so sure 'bout it... But my handguns sure are! Even my 1851s have been modified. But... the geometry is all stock. And, for a fact, they're modified... whether you xray them or not. I'm still not likely to win, place, or show in any category I might sign up for. And I certainly wouldn't consider signing up for a "stock gun" category, even if one were available.

 

There's NEVER been one. I know quite a number of guys and gals that have been involved as long or longer than I, and modified guns have been a subject and bone of contention for all of that time. Mods have been accepted for as long as the game has been around. There have been limits placed on them, as there should be... we are playing with basic designs of the 19th century, many improvements have come in the intervening years.

 

From a historical perspective on the game, there were some 6 EOTs shot before a "Traditional" category shooter won the Overall title. Was that because the Ruger was so much better a firearm than a Colt or Colt clone? I think not, but it was surely perceived to be! Are Rugers stronger, made with better springs and so forth? Yes. But in the intervening years many a Colt or clone shooter has out-shot, out-ran, out-thunk many a Ruger shooter! And this before Ruger introduced the Vaquero or New Vaquero. Why is that?

 

Is it because somehow a modified, yet outwardly stock, Colt is better than a modified, outwardly stock appearing Ruger? I think not. It's because the top shooters have moved from shooting 20-30K rounds of practice a year downrange, to well beyond the 50K mark. And that's probably conservative. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that many of the "nearly top shooters" are practicing at "nearly" those levels. If you think that your "stock" gun can hold up to even the practice rounds needed to be truly competitive without some modification... you need a little window instead of a belly-button.

 

Early on in my 27 years of playing this game, I thought I was headed to the top... even won, placed and showed in category a few times... But, by gum I spent an awful LOT of time at the range and a LOT of money in practice ammo. And broke a few guns in the process. Hence the decision that I wouldn't shoot unmodified guns, even for playing around in a strictly amatuer game for fun. It is absolutely no fun to travel for 2 days, spend a couple hundred bucks in entry fees, more in motels, gas, food and costumes, oh yeah, we need costumes also, only to have your pistol break on the first stage. Been there, done that... have the receipts and instead of a plaque, a fond memory of the gunsmith who fixed it for free so I could continue to pursue some fun.

 

In recent years, it seems as tho' I get out-practiced, out-thought and out-ran "nearly" all the time; (you can ignore that "nearly", for it's truly)... all the time. That doesn't mean that I'm not still trying to improve. Why, in my view, if I can consistently finish each stage in 60 seconds, clean... I'm a winner! I blew that goal during my last match tho'... finished one stage in something like 34 seconds... and some change! Somebody musta wound up my internal clock a little tight!!! Or it was that daylight savings time change...

 

Continue your hashin' out the details on your "stock category"... I'll try real hard not to say "I tolt ya so" when it fails. NOT!!!

[Blackwater 53393]

I don't know if it has been asked, but would a Renegade straigh out of the box be considered stock? And what about all of the Colt lightning clones?

[twelve mile REB]

Easy enough -- you take unaltered examples of a '73, a '92 and a Marlin, and you open them on a table. Anything with a "shorter than stock" throw, as measured by comparison is not eligible for the stock category. Polishing and smoothing was done in the Old West and is allowed (duh). "Better and more durable? Sure, so long as the geometry of the action is still stock. It doesn't take an enormous rule book, it takes a desire to do it and a modicum of common sense.

 

And not every game that enforces such rules is full of paid professionals. IDPA has a version of it, and isn't making anyone famous.

 

The bottom line is, most people wanted the ability to shoot 21st century guns. They didn't want to shoot 19th century guns, because they couldn't shoot as fast with them as Hopalong Cassidy could with the help of special effects (they also can't do this with their 21st century guns, but that's beside the point). It's a darn shame, really, but that's where the sport went the minute they allowed modifications outside the modern category.

A consistant winner shooting a stock gun in IDPA can have a sponser and wear their name and yes they are famous. $$$$ have always been part of IDPA and IPSC. Of the top ten a Winter Range how many get anything from anyone? I was 9th and I can tell you no one is calling me with offers. If you were ninth at the masters without any ties to a retail organization your phone would be ringing off the wall. Let it lie, this sport is about people first and shooting second introducing $$$ into it will degrade the game. I was there when IPSC stated and saw the changes I was also there when IDPA started no thanks lets keep what we have its better.

12

[Rye Miles #13621]

My Smoke Wagons are outta the box. (Slicker than a greased pig)

 

Rye

[Train Robber 13659]

The time difference between an average good shooter using a tuned stock stroke rifle vs a tuned short stroke rifle will be about 8-12

 

seconds for the entire match . Smooth transitions can pick up 30 seconds or more . Really observe some top shooters . They do not

 

waste any motion and are always doing something with both hands . Folks that pick up the rifle and lever a round into the chamber

 

as they bring it up to the shoulder are usually a second or more behind those that pick it up,shoulder/sight/lever/fire.

 

Good luck to you in enjoying this great sport.

 

Train Robber

[Utah Bob #35998]

Potrzebie!

[Captain Bill Burt]

Alright now Mr. Neuman!

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

I LIKE shooting slicked-up guns. Mo fun.

 

Our SxS Stoeger had to literally be broken open over our knees. Once Jim Bowie waved his magic digits over it, it was so much better.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

True, if we can enforce the current standard we could enforce a different one. Well, thanks for pointing that out, but it doesn't matter.

WoooHooo!!!!

 

How cool!!!!!!!!!!!

 

A class that doesn't allow short stroked rifles...that's what a "Stock" class is all about!!!!! Well YEEEEEHAWWWWWW...

 

...like I said before, stoopid issue. All this bs over short strokes...

 

OY!

[Boggus Deal #64218]

There is an old saying in racing, "Speed cost money. How fast do you want to go?" A couple of ways to go fast(er) here. Tuned guns is one. A much better way is to aquire lots of ammo and practice. The well practiced shooters can shoot any quality equipment well. The finest equipment in the world will not make an average shooter any better. It just gives them confidence and the opportunity to shoot well.

[Bison Bud]

As far as Marlins and NCOWS goes, it is my understanding that as long as it doesn't have the ramp front site like the ones that generally come on the short carbine, then it's good to go. Of course no short strokes as well. In my opinion, the Widdermatic should indeed be NCOWS legal.

[J-BAR #18287]

My hand guns are, by my choice, among the most primitive allowed in SASS. I shoot 1860 Armys, cap and ball.

That said, I have put many, many hours into improvements to the actions of these guns so that they shoot as best as I can make them shoot. I'm sure they lay in their padded bag between shoots and wish that I had skills to match their possiblities.

 

 

HA! I sometimes use 1851 Navies that are 9 years more primitive than yours!!

 

(I just could not let a 3 page bar fight go by without throwing a punch!! )

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Allie Mo here (not the SWA)!

 

I must brag on my Hubby for those of you who think you must have a category without short strokes to have a fair competition.

 

The first time they offered Classic Cowboy at the California State Match at 5 Dogs Creek, Hubby won it shooting a 1873 rifle without a short stroke and a model '87 SG without the drop-two modification. He beat folks with short stroked rifles and slicked SxS. These were not his usual guns either. He usually shot a Marlin and a Model '97 in the Duelist category.

 

Like others have said or implied, it's more about the shooter than the guns.

 

Just saying...

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Edit to insert rifles. Is that better?

[Wyatt]

Hey Allie Mo,

 

From now on can you edit my posts, like others, to make me seem witty, brilliant, intelligent, caring, smart...............or at least a good sense of humor

 

Oh BTW if anybody can SS a shotgun I'm in...........pistols and rifes......check!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Hey Allie Mo,

 

From now on can you edit my posts, like others, to make me seem witty, brilliant, intelligent, caring, smart...............or at least a good sense of humor

 

Oh BTW if anybody can SS a shotgun I'm in...........pistols and rifes......check!

 

 

WYATT,

 

I've short-stroked my 97.

 

Thank goodness I don't do it often because the result were disastrous.....

 

 

..........Widder

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Hey Allie Mo,

 

From now on can you edit my posts, like others, to make me seem witty, brilliant, intelligent, caring, smart...............or at least a good sense of humor

 

Oh BTW if anybody can SS a shotgun I'm in...........pistols and rifes......check!

 

If she could "edit" your looks, well then I would be all for it .

[Wyatt]

If she could "edit" your looks, well then I would be all for it .

 

Nose picker

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I'll offer a very "broad" definition of "stock."

 

Anything that does not have a short stroke.

 

That's it. No other qualifications.

 

Pretty much all of my guns are "stock" in that they are as they were when they came from the factory. The few that I've had "worked on" were done for the following reasons....

 

My original Winchester 87 went to Coyote Cap to correct some improper functioning, and to make sure it was okay to shoot.

 

My original Spencer when to a gunsmith the remove a dimple in the chamber caused by excessive drive fireing with the rimfire block and to fit the centerfire conversion block.

 

One original 92 I have started life as a .44-40, but a previous owner rebarrelled it with a 17.5" .44 Magnum barrel and John Wayne style lever.

 

My ASM 92 had such a horribly clunky action that I took it to a gun smith to have it smoothed out. But I only had it smoothed out to work right, not to turn it into a "race gun." (Whatever that means.)

 

I have 2 Uberti .58 Remmington's that I have cartridge converted to fire .38 S&W

 

And that's it. And while the above mentioned "modifications" are differnt from factory original specs, I don't consider any of them to be race gun conversions. They are just regular guns that have been tuned to work they way they are supposed to. To me, that's "stock." Okay, maybe the large loop 92 should be consdiered, "customized."

 

Is there a "category" for "stock" guns? I don't think so. It's too hard to define. Is there a category for "no short strokes?" Theoretically, but there is no NEED for such a category. If you don't want a SS, don't use one. If you do, use it. Just go out and have fun!

 

The ONLY way I could see a "no short stroke" rule is basically divide ALL the categories into "Short Stroked" and "Not Short Stroked" classes, and doubling the prizes accordingly.

 

THAT would be a logistical nightmare, and I don't think we need to go there.

 

 

But, please, don't trot out the "Go shoot NCOWS" agrument. NCOWS is very much into historical accuracy. SASS is not. Just because you don't like short strokes, that doesn't mean that you want to go down the NCOWS super historical accurate pathway.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

In just about any race there are three components required for success. The equipment, be it cars, guns, cycles, bar stools or lawnmower has to be at least a little better than the competitor. Then the fuel or ammo has to be up to the task. But, none of the above matters if the competitor isn't up to the task. You can buy first place equipment but if you don't do your part, it aint gonna happen. You gotta do the trigger or windshield time.

 

It sounds like Oddnews is now ready to settle for a no short stroke class. I would think that could easily be incorporated into "B" Western

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hey Allie Mo,

 

From now on can you edit my posts, like others, to make me seem witty, brilliant, intelligent, caring, smart...............or at least a good sense of humor

 

Oh BTW if anybody can SS a shotgun I'm in...........pistols and rifes......check!

If I could do that, all of my posts would be witty, brilliant, intelligent, caring, smart, and show a good sense of humor.

[Korupt Karl]

Seems to me it would make more sense to separate the consistent winners into their own category, just so the rest of us would have a chance at a buckle or two. Someone used golf as an example; I'm sure Tiger Woods wouldn't be allowed to compete against amateurs (play in the same match, maybe, but not in competition), and golfers are given handicaps to level the playing field, as it were. Near as I can tell, SASS does nothing to level the field, unless you count the age-based categories.

I always like to check out websites of those "STIRRING THE POT" I see that you finished 29th out of 32 past Sept and at two other shoots you were 38th out of 38 and 35th out of 36 http://www.vtcowboys.com/scores/VMV_2011_SepScores.pdf So, if we eliminate the top 96% of shooters you can win a BUCKLE....Is that what you are saying? Just asking.

 

KK

[Captain Bill Burt]

I always like to check out websites of those "STIRRING THE POT" I see that you finished 29th out of 32 past Sept and at two other shoots you were 38th out of 38 and 35th out of 36 http://www.vtcowboys.com/scores/VMV_2011_SepScores.pdf So, if we eliminate the top 96% of shooters you can win a BUCKLE....Is that what you are saying? Just asking.KK

Ouch! That's gotta hurt!

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I'll offer a very "broad" definition of "stock."

 

Anything that does not have a short stroke.

 

That's it. No other qualifications.

 

Pretty much all of my guns are "stock" in that they are as they were when they came from the factory. The few that I've had "worked on" were done for the following reasons....

 

My original Winchester 87 went to Coyote Cap to correct some improper functioning, and to make sure it was okay to shoot.

 

My original Spencer when to a gunsmith the remove a dimple in the chamber caused by excessive drive fireing with the rimfire block and to fit the centerfire conversion block.

 

One original 92 I have started life as a .44-40, but a previous owner rebarrelled it with a 17.5" .44 Magnum barrel and John Wayne style lever.

 

My ASM 92 had such a horribly clunky action that I took it to a gun smith to have it smoothed out. But I only had it smoothed out to work right, not to turn it into a "race gun." (Whatever that means.)

 

I have 2 Uberti .58 Remmington's that I have cartridge converted to fire .38 S&W

 

And that's it. And while the above mentioned "modifications" are differnt from factory original specs, I don't consider any of them to be race gun conversions. They are just regular guns that have been tuned to work they way they are supposed to. To me, that's "stock." Okay, maybe the large loop 92 should be consdiered, "customized."

 

Is there a "category" for "stock" guns? I don't think so. It's too hard to define. Is there a category for "no short strokes?" Theoretically, but there is no NEED for such a category. If you don't want a SS, don't use one. If you do, use it. Just go out and have fun!

 

The ONLY way I could see a "no short stroke" rule is basically divide ALL the categories into "Short Stroked" and "Not Short Stroked" classes, and doubling the prizes accordingly.

 

THAT would be a logistical nightmare, and I don't think we need to go there.

 

 

But, please, don't trot out the "Go shoot NCOWS" agrument. NCOWS is very much into historical accuracy. SASS is not. Just because you don't like short strokes, that doesn't mean that you want to go down the NCOWS super historical accurate pathway.

 

 

An even simpler solution is to ban short strokes altogether.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

An even simpler solution is to ban short strokes altogether.

That horse left the barn many years ago. It interesting that some very fast shooters can cycle say a Marlin without a short stroke as fast as a 73 with one. Oh my bad, that was why the 73 short stroke was invented, almost forgot.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

An even simpler solution is to ban short strokes altogether.

Wouldn't it be far simpler to ban folks that want to ban short strokes?

 

Oy...

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

If I could do that, all of my posts would be witty, brilliant, intelligent, caring, smart, and show a good sense of humor.

Allie, I thought your posts were already all of those!

 

But Wyatt may be hopeless.....

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I always like to check out websites of those "STIRRING THE POT" I see that you finished 29th out of 32 past Sept and at two other shoots you were 38th out of 38 and 35th out of 36 http://www.vtcowboys.com/scores/VMV_2011_SepScores.pdf So, if we eliminate the top 96% of shooters you can win a BUCKLE....Is that what you are saying? Just asking.KK

KK, don't confuse people with facts.

[Bison Bud]

Apparantly, it once again boils down to "Short Strokes." I've been in this game nearly 14 years now and there has never been another subject so hated by the vast minority. As another Pard already said, that horse left the barn a long time ago and yet the decisions made still aren't accepted by again, the vast minority. Sure lets go ahead and ban probably 85% of the rifles currently in use, just how does that make any sense? As for a "No Short Stroke" category have at it at the local level and ask for it at bigger matches. Then we can see if there really are enough players to justify putting it to a vote. Frankly, if we can't get enough support for FCGF to make it an official category, I'd say your going to have a tough row to hoe on this one, but I think it's time someone make an honest effort to promote it or finally accept the decisions already made and get down off their high horse once and for all on this matter. Good luck and good shooting to all.

[Crazy Mingo]

Heeee Haaaa Hoss .. The reality of this is if you switched guns with cowboys like Duece, dang it,widder, .THEY ARE GOING TO BEAT YOU with your guns.. They will shoot your class,use your guns,let you use there guns, and they will BEAT you These top cowboys didn't get to be champs becouse of rule changes,short strokes,or tuned guns..

 

Heeee Haaaa Crazy Mingo

[Captain Bill Burt]

Heeee Haaaa Hoss .. The reality of this is if you switched guns with cowboys like Duece, dang it,widder, .THEY ARE GOING TO BEAT YOU with your guns.. They will shoot your class,use your guns,let you use there guns, and they will BEAT you These top cowboys didn't get to be champs becouse of rule changes,short strokes,or tuned guns..

 

Heeee Haaaa Crazy Mingo

Yep!

 

I really don't understand this unhealthy fixation on short stroked rifles. They look just like any other rifle, are people so offended by the fact that when they're levered they don't move as far forward as an original? Is the difference really that apparent? I don't think so. Or is it something else, like something they can hang their hat on to explain the fact they can't finish ahead of certain cowboys.