stock/unaltered/original guns

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Those who are most outspoken on short strokes simply don't get out much. If they did they would see that they are virtually in every shooters hands nowadays. There are 3 link kit manufacturers and another 2 guys that do cut and weld jobs. They are not busy because only 10% of the game uses them. You will see them in the hands I'd 16 second a stage shooters to 60 second a stage shooters. I could care less what's in your guns and won't judge your morality by the length of your stroke. Here's what's on my mind. How many matches do you attend supporting CAS ? Do you support your neighboring clubs? Do you take the extra time to talk to match visitors? Do you help out your local club on work days? Do you pitch in behind the scenes and help do all the stuff that's not so fun? Are you doing everything you possibly can to be a active contributing member of this sport so we keep it going long and healthy?

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Well said, Duece. Well said!

[Snakebite]

Those who are most outspoken on short strokes simply don't get out much. If they did they would see that they are virtually in every shooters hands nowadays. There are 3 link kit manufacturers and another 2 guys that do cut and weld jobs. They are not busy because only 10% of the game uses them. You will see them in the hands I'd 16 second a stage shooters to 60 second a stage shooters. I could care less what's in your guns and won't judge your morality by the length of your stroke. Here's what's on my mind. How many matches do you attend supporting CAS ? Do you support your neighboring clubs? Do you take the extra time to talk to match visitors? Do you help out your local club on work days? Do you pitch in behind the scenes and help do all the stuff that's not so fun? Are you doing everything you possibly can to be a active contributing member of this sport so we keep it going long and healthy?

I certainly agree with this. We beat the Short Stroke issue to death on the old "Mods Committee". There was no way, even at that point in time, that we could put the Jennie back into the bottle. About the only thing we could do was to attempt to draw a "Line in the Sand", in a attempt to put a end to the constant proliferation of external gun and equipment mods. Kinda like putting "restrictor" plates on race cars, but we still see speeds increase... it must have something to do with the Drivers. The Champions of this game are not just those who run 16 sec stages, they are also those who make those stages possible with their hard work and promotion of the Game. We can all be Champions in that last category, and in many cases we see the same faces in both of those groups.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

An even simpler solution is to ban short strokes altogether.

 

Eh....

 

 

I don't like Short Strokes.

 

I don't therefore USE Short Strokes.

 

Back in the day, if it had been up to me, I would not have allowed them to be introduced.

 

But the fact remains that they ARE a part of our game. I don't think we can, or should, change that. Once something is declared to be "okay" for the game, it needs to remain that way. To suddenly take something that has always been allowed, and even specifically defined as allowed, and then dissallow it, just seems unfair somehow. We should not go down that road.

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Eh....

 

 

I don't like Short Strokes.

 

I don't therefore USE Short Strokes.

 

Back in the day, if it had been up to me, I would not have allowed them to be introduced.

 

But the fact remains that they ARE a part of our game. I don't think we can, or should, change that. Once something is declared to be "okay" for the game, it needs to remain that way. To suddenly take something that has always been allowed, and even specifically defined as allowed, and then dissallow it, just seems unfair somehow. We should not go down that road.

 

For me the issue isn't banning them, nor would I have kept them out of the sport entirely. I might have confined them to the modern class, back when we had a modern class.

 

But let's not mince words -- they provide a competitive advantage. If they didn't, people would not use them. Yes, some shooters can beat other shooters using unaltered firearms, but for most people, the short stroke kit wasn't put in for no reason -- it was put in to speed up in competition.

 

So those of us who choose not to alter our firearms are at a competitive disadvantage, albeit a small one, compared to those who do so. If we choose to have a competitive disadvantage by shooting black powder, there's a set-aside category for us. If we choose to have a competitive disadvantage by only shooting pistols with one hand, there's a set aside category. If we choose to wear big hats and loud clothing that aren't a competitive measure at all, there's a set aside catgory. But there's no set aside category for the competitive disadvantage of shooting unaltered period firearms.

 

I know -- start such a category grass roots. I hope someone who has influence on a club does exactly that. If I ever move back home, I may well try it. In the mean time, I'm just going to shoot when I can with my slow, antique-operating system firearms -- like I'd use if I had a time machine and could travel back to the Old West.

[Hoss Shoer]

Hoss Shoer, yeah I remember that guy, wasn't he the guy who asked the question about short strokes on the Wire. Yeah he had to go into hiding after that nobody has seen him for years.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hoss Shoer, yeah I remember that guy, wasn't he the guy who asked the question about short strokes on the Wire. Yeah he had to go into hiding after that nobody has seen him for years.

Hi Hoss Shoer,

 

I'm glad to see your sense of humor is intact after this thread.

 

As they say, "Welcome to the fire!"

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Korupt Karl]

Just trying to get my head around this topic. Is it that we all need to win a buckle? Are we afraid that someone has an advantage and is going to beat us? I'm as competitive as they come and while no comparison to the top guys I do have a few buckles.

 

I guess I shoot this sport to take me away from the everyday hustle and bustle. I shoot it to do the best I can and see how I stack up. I shoot because I love the people. I try to have the best equipment that I can and while I have shortstroked rifles and slicked up guns, it really doesn't make me faster....but I think it does.

 

There's no money involved, only a certificate, a plaque or possibly a buckle....and for this we are splitting hairs about someone's equipment. As many have said...if you are against shortstrokes, etc....find an NCOWS group and I think you will be much happier.

 

Just my too scents.

 

KK

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

If we choose to have a competitive disadvantage by shooting black powder, there's a set-aside category for us. If we choose to have a competitive disadvantage by only shooting pistols with one hand, there's a set aside category.

I don't get out much beyond my region for matches. But I have seen shooters like The Brisco Kid, Tame Bill, Billy Boots, J-Bar, Shady Willy Brown and others who shoot C&B, FCD, and Duelist as fast or faster than most 2-handed, smokeless shooters. Their isn't any competitive disadvantage about it.

[Silver Shadow]

Hoss Shoer, yeah I remember that guy, wasn't he the guy who asked the question about short strokes on the Wire. Yeah he had to go into hiding after that nobody has seen him for years.

Hang in there Hoss. A 4 page thread on the wire is kinda like winning a buckle at the annual Winter Wire Shootout. Besides, all the flamin' will help keep you warm up there in Glendive . Been there many times in the winter, I think

 

SS

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Wouldn't it be far simpler to ban folks that want to ban short strokes?

 

Oy...

 

Too aggressive!

Or if one is really interested in getting prizes, trophies, buckles to those that haven't, ban those that have already something.

Or encapsulate them into an "expert" note not "pro" category. It has experts and those that already won. IE no repeats.

But then again that horse has already left the barn as well.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I certainly agree with this. We beat the Short Stroke issue to death on the old "Mods Committee". There was no way, even at that point in time, that we could put the Jennie back into the bottle. About the only thing we could do was to attempt to draw a "Line in the Sand", in a attempt to put a end to the constant proliferation of external gun and equipment mods. Kinda like putting "restrictor" plates on race cars, but we still see speeds increase... it must have something to do with the Drivers. The Champions of this game are not just those who run 16 sec stages, they are also those who make those stages possible with their hard work and promotion of the Game. We can all be Champions in that last category, and in many cases we see the same faces in both of those groups.

 

I have to think that if the WB could ban all pump shotguns but the win '97 that it could also ban short stroked rifles.

It is after all their sport. They own it. We are merely customers, NOT members. WE didn't get to vote on the outcome. Please don't tell me that the TG represent me as they don't, They are bound by rules put forth by the WB and represent clubs not shooters. Some TGs are voted by members of the club they represent, others are the only choice because of the rules put forth by the WB to be a TG. So those don't represent me in an election type setting.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I have to think that if the WB could ban all pump shotguns but the win '97 that it could also ban short stroked rifles.

It is after all their sport. They own it. We are merely customers, NOT members. WE didn't get to vote on the outcome. Please don't tell me that the TG represent me as they don't, They are bound by rules put forth by the WB and represent clubs not shooters. Some TGs are voted by members of the club they represent, others are the only choice because of the rules put forth by the WB to be a TG. So those don't represent me in an election type setting.

The number of banned shotguns was insignificant compared to the number of 66/73 rifles used in our sport today. Back when the gun covenants were written, it was impossible to ban the short stroke rifles as it would have caused a large number of shooters to leave the sport. See Snakebites earlier comments. Save the TG discussion for another thread.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

For me the issue isn't banning them, nor would I have kept them out of the sport entirely. I might have confined them to the modern class, back when we had a modern class.

 

But let's not mince words -- they provide a competitive advantage. If they didn't, people would not use them. Yes, some shooters can beat other shooters using unaltered firearms, but for most people, the short stroke kit wasn't put in for no reason -- it was put in to speed up in competition.

 

So those of us who choose not to alter our firearms are at a competitive disadvantage, albeit a small one, compared to those who do so. If we choose to have a competitive disadvantage by shooting black powder, there's a set-aside category for us. If we choose to have a competitive disadvantage by only shooting pistols with one hand, there's a set aside category. If we choose to wear big hats and loud clothing that aren't a competitive measure at all, there's a set aside catgory. But there's no set aside category for the competitive disadvantage of shooting unaltered period firearms.

 

I know -- start such a category grass roots. I hope someone who has influence on a club does exactly that. If I ever move back home, I may well try it. In the mean time, I'm just going to shoot when I can with my slow, antique-operating system firearms -- like I'd use if I had a time machine and could travel back to the Old West.

Back when I joined SASS, the rifle of choice was a Marlin because the length of stroke was shorter than a 66 or 73. Some creative person figured out a way to reduce the 66/73 strokes and the rest is history. Today I know at least one WR overall winner that shoots a Marlin without a short stroke as fast as he shoots a 66 or 73. At least for a period of time he held the world record for SASS rifle using a Marlin, do not know if that is still true. The number of short stroke Marlines is very few and the crap coming from the Marlin factory today forces many shooters to only consider a 66 or 73. As far as your desires concerning the short stroke and other gun covenant content, you made your desires known when it was being considered and you lost the argument, but continue to complain. As I recall the vote on the gun covenants was about 80% in favor, and I don't recall other votes with that much support at least since I joined SASS. I would hazard to guess then that you are in the extreme minority.

[Constable Nelson #11784]

Well.. I'm completely mystified. Just read this entire thread and have been amazed by the way the demands for a "Stock" category have morphed into a "no short stroked RIFLE" category.

 

In what universe is that the only "advantageous" modification?

 

When (initially at least) demanding a change to the rules to allow a "Stock" category, how does one later say:

 

"Oh.. internal mods are allowed!" XXX???? You claim to want a "Stock" category... then use the current rules to allow you to turn that into a "no short stroke" one?

 

So all the terrific mods on handguns are just peachy in your "Stock" category? Wow... interesting definition of the word.

 

Well.. at least the actual nature of this proposed new category is now out of the box... and (unlike the original proposal) IS actually enforceable...

 

Good luck with getting it up and running.... I won't support it but hey, whatever floats yer boat!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

CN, it's called WINTER here in the 'states'.

Folks just go 'nutz', I tell you.......

 

L(nutz)G

[Snakebite]

Hacker: Apparently you are unfamiliar with the fact that the Marlin and the Winchester 93 were both deemed UNSAFE to shoot with modern ammunition... this was advertised nationally, How could the WB allow their use when those who manufactured them put out national warnings not to shoot them? If would have been a really dumb move to do anything else! As for the NEW 93/97... I won't claim that they are unsafe.. it seems that they were proofed and tested... but the model that was out at the time, and which was presented for approval, looked just like the original 93s.. and the WB didn't want to risk the two being confused. It was indeed their "Mandate" which removed any chance of using them from the CAS game. The later 93/97 was promoted as a different gun, and it was indeed different. There were only a very limited number of them available, and even though that gun was submitted, it was also not allowed. The WB deemed it to be a Business decision. I believe that gun is now allowed in WBA shooting, though still not allowed in CAS. The bottom line is this... you have nothing at stake, and nothing to loose... they, as owners, have everything at stake and everything to loose. As for the TGs... if you don't agree with yours, then use your power and abiltiy to take the job away from him/her. I'm sure that your voice at the TG summits would find many supporters.

 

Snakebite

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Too aggressive!

Or if one is really interested in getting prizes, trophies, buckles to those that haven't, ban those that have already something.

Or encapsulate them into an "expert" note not "pro" category. It has experts and those that already won. IE no repeats.

But then again that horse has already left the barn as well.

If you want, I'll send ya a couple of buckles...make 'em different from each other so that you wouldn't have any "Repeat" buckles.

 

Again...Oy!

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Hacker: Apparently you are unfamiliar with the fact that the Marlin and the Winchester 93 were both deemed UNSAFE to shoot with modern ammunition... this was advertised nationally, How could the WB allow their use when those who manufactured them put out national warnings not to shoot them? If would have been a really dumb move to do anything else! As for the NEW 93/97... I won't claim that they are unsafe.. it seems that they were proofed and tested... but the model that was out at the time, and which was presented for approval, looked just like the original 93s.. and the WB didn't want to risk the two being confused. It was indeed their "Mandate" which removed any chance of using them from the CAS game. The later 93/97 was promoted as a different gun, and it was indeed different. There were only a very limited number of them available, and even though that gun was submitted, it was also not allowed. The WB deemed it to be a Business decision. I believe that gun is now allowed in WBA shooting, though still not allowed in CAS. The bottom line is this... you have nothing at stake, and nothing to loose... they, as owners, have everything at stake and everything to loose. As for the TGs... if you don't agree with yours, then use your power and abiltiy to take the job away from him/her. I'm sure that your voice at the TG summits would find many supporters.

 

Snakebite

 

You like many make assumptions when reading posts. I am well aware that non win 97s were allegedly deemed unsafe.

BUT at the time they were banned it was stated by some that there was no discussion with the TGs about the issue.

My primary point was that the WB acted unilaterally without customer involvement. We are not members we are customers.

 

My point about the TGs are that there is a VAST difference between DIRECT voting and voting via a TG whose select is based upon a set rules set by WB that limit the number of possible TGs in a club. The main limit is the being a life "customer" of SASS (qualification state life member, I don't believe we are members.)

 

My post did not mention the 93/97 issue so I really don't care about it.

I don't personally believe that the 97 should not be allowed as it represents such a small period of the time of interest (1860 - 1899) as stated in the handbook.

 

About whether the WB has stuff to lose, from my view, they provide a rule book and sanction certain matches.

The bulk of all CAS matches have little if any significant SASS involvement.

 

Please take non of this personally nor do I intend any insults to the WB, SASS nor the TGs. But I stated my opinion.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

You like many make assumptions when reading posts. I am well aware that non win 97s were allegedly deemed unsafe.

BUT at the time they were banned it was stated by some that there was no discussion with the TGs about the issue.

My primary point was that the WB acted unilaterally without customer involvement. We are not members we are customers.

 

My point about the TGs are that there is a VAST difference between DIRECT voting and voting via a TG whose select is based upon a set rules set by WB that limit the number of possible TGs in a club. The main limit is the being a life "customer" of SASS (qualification state life member, I don't believe we are members.)

 

My post did not mention the 93/97 issue so I really don't care about it.

I don't personally believe that the 97 should not be allowed as it represents such a small period of the time of interest (1860 - 1899) as stated in the handbook.

 

About whether the WB has stuff to lose, from my view, they provide a rule book and sanction certain matches.

The bulk of all CAS matches have little if any significant SASS involvement.

 

Please take non of this personally nor do I intend any insults to the WB, SASS nor the TGs. But I stated my opinion.

Without the SASS rule book(s) it would be almost impossible to put on any CAS match.

[Red Rider Rudy]

Heeee Haaaa Hoss .. The reality of this is if you switched guns with cowboys like Duece, dang it,widder, .THEY ARE GOING TO BEAT YOU with your guns.. They will shoot your class,use your guns,let you use there guns, and they will BEAT you These top cowboys didn't get to be champs becouse of rule changes,short strokes,or tuned guns..

 

Heeee Haaaa Crazy Mingo

You are so right about this! I have a pair of Hand Me Down Pistols from Duece. Do they make me as fast as him? No Way, not even close! Just put a short stroke in my 1866 and it's no shorter than my Marlin. I have bought all kinds of real good stuff to play are Game! But like others have said it takes a lot of Work to try and get to the Top.

 

A Good Friend told me you can get in the top Ten, but to make it to the top Five takes Work!!!!!!!

 

As Duece said in his post! What do you do to Keep and Help this Sport stay alive!

[Snakebite]

Hacker... The TGs do in fact vote on the VAST majority of rules in SASS. It is only a rare situation that the WB "Mandates" something. The 97 issue was one of them, and you are correct, there was not a great deal of discussion on it. Once the WB Lawyers gave them their opinion, it was no longer a issue that the TGs had any control over. I'm actually pretty familiar with the process, and how things are done. Anyway... it sounds like you are not thrilled with the way things are run in SASS. I can understand that, I've been involved more than 99.9% of SASS MEMBERS (yes, we are members), and I am not thrilled with everything either. That was one of the major reasons that I got involved to the degree that I did. I'm very please that I was in fact able to have some effect upon the game. Everything is not perfect... not by a long shot, but it is what we have, and after over 20 yrs, I still enjoy it. CAS will continue to be one of the top shooting games in the world because most of the folks still enjoy it.

 

Snakebite

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Without the SASS rule book(s) it would be almost impossible to put on any CAS match.

 

I don't buy nonsense.

Any person blessed/cursed with an organizational instinct could organize the rule book better than the existing SASS rule books.

And any competent shooter who has been around for a while could compose a set of rules better organized and easier to enforce/act on than the SASS "patchwork quilt" of rules.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Hacker... The TGs do in fact vote on the VAST majority of rules in SASS. It is only a rare situation that the WB "Mandates" something. The 97 issue was one of them, and you are correct, there was not a great deal of discussion on it. Once the WB Lawyers gave them their opinion, it was no longer a issue that the TGs had any control over. I'm actually pretty familiar with the process, and how things are done. Anyway... it sounds like you are not thrilled with the way things are run in SASS. I can understand that, I've been involved more than 99.9% of SASS MEMBERS (yes, we are members), and I am not thrilled with everything either. That was one of the major reasons that I got involved to the degree that I did. I'm very please that I was in fact able to have some effect upon the game. Everything is not perfect... not by a long shot, but it is what we have, and after over 20 yrs, I still enjoy it. CAS will continue to be one of the top shooting games in the world because most of the folks still enjoy it.

 

Snakebite

+1

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

Time to let this one cool down, it's starting to sizzle.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo