Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 You are TO. Stage calls for shooter to have rifle in hand. (Can be on shoulder) Shooter gets ready, says line and a half second before timer beep, shooter levers and fires a round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 start him over unless, he is a restart junkie already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Not that it matters, but was it before or after the RO said Standby?? Just for grins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kidd Krystin Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Stop the shooter, send him to unloading table, and have him get back in line again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosscut hardy Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Hey Possum, No sure but could be two (2) possibilities: 1) stop shooter send him to reload table to shoot stage over, advise shooter next time could be penalty 2) possibly procedure the 2nd time around and shooter repeats actions by jumping buzzer. ....crosscut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Ask the shooter if he/she is hard of hearing. Sometimes they really are! Then, we go to the hand on the shoulder start. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ T. Sites Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Stop the shooter, send him to unloading table, and have him get back in line again. +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I'd STOP him (the first time) & give him one more "shot" at a clean start; watching closely to make certain to NOT start the clock if he even twitched on the lever. If he somehow managed to jump the timer AGAIN, I'd let him continue & assess a "P" ...if he was in the habit of jumping the timer, he would get ONE warning for the match, then a 30-second SOG penalty on top of any procedurals. ...some might consider that being a "hard @$$", but that's just how I deal with cheaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Stop the shooter, send him to unloading table, and have him get back in line again.+1 I'd STOP him (the first time) & give him one more "shot" at a clean start; watching closely to make certain to NOT start the clock if he even twitched on the lever. If he somehow managed to jump the timer AGAIN, I'd let him continue & assess a "P" ...if he was in the habit of jumping the timer, he would get ONE warning for the match, then a 30-second SOG penalty on top of any procedurals. ...some might consider that being a "hard @$$", but that's just how I deal with cheaters. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 (Possum if it is me let me have a head start,I need all the help I can get).Stop him and have him go to the unloading table and start again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 Not that it matters, but was it before or after the RO said Standby?? Just for grins! After the "Standby!" I figured let them reshoot once, but I figured SDQ if they did same thing on the reshoot. "P" with possibility of SOG for hibitual jumpers makes more sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 · Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Damn, I just love the compassion shown to shooters by some folks... and name calling to boot. Shameful. I deliberately vary the time between the standby and the beep to keep people from jumping the timer, and I tell them so at the start of the match. It is called communication. I have had one person jump the beeper in two years! Come on folks, communicate, don't look for a way to penalize the shooter. Treat folks like you would like to be treated. Link to comment
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I thought we were taught to have a consistent time between standby and beep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 · Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Okie, The only "name-calling" was in reference to HABITUAL jumpers when PWB called them cheaters. What would you call them? I have not had this as an issue, either, but the question came up about a shooter who was habitually jumping the timer. My question was what is the right thing to do. Some might say a half second here and there is not an issue, but would you say that at a match like EOT or WR where a half second can be the difference between 1st and 3rd? I like to know the right call. Link to comment
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I agree with Possum Skinner, there's a big difference between a shooter who is trying to get started on the front side of the beep and one who is trying to anticipate the 'snap count' and already be in motion before the beep. The former may occasionally screw up and jump the gun, give em another start and they'll likely lag the second time just to be safe. The latter makes a habit of 'creeping' hand moving towards the gun prior to the beep, whatever, they're cheating. I don't think the answer is to vary the time between standbye and beep, that's not fair to the majority of shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulshan 20262 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I thought we were taught to have a consistent time between standby and beep. As I recall, the time between standby and the beep is suposed to be one to three seconds. I have had to work on not giving a sort time after the standby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 · Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Okie, The only "name-calling" was in reference to HABITUAL jumpers when PWB called them cheaters. What would you call them? I have not had this as an issue, either, but the question came up about a shooter who was habitually jumping the timer. My question was what is the right thing to do. Some might say a half second here and there is not an issue, but would you say that at a match like EOT or WR where a half second can be the difference between 1st and 3rd? I like to know the right call. Possum, I certainly would not call them cheaters. I would call them competitive. If someone called me a cheater because of jumping the timer, it would be the last time I ever visited their club. I have grown very weary of the nastiness in CAS. There is no need for it. If someone was a habitual timer jumper, I'd communicate with them. I'd tell them this is not acceptable. They would get one warning, then a P, then a SDQ. It seems in today's world that no one looks each other in the eye and lays out the limits. I guess I am old school. I still believe in talking to folks, and settling things with a handshake. Folks always get a fair shake at my club, but they know not to take advantage of our good spirit. I can and will make the hard call. Link to comment
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 As I recall, the time between standby and the beep is suposed to be one to three seconds. I have had to work on not giving a sort time after the standby. Bingo. Think to yourself one second and three seconds. Doesn't seem like much, but it is a big difference to the shooter. I see them start to reach, then draw back. It is good to vary the time a bit, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosscut hardy Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Thanks PWB for setting straight the correct call on this. It sure was confusing to me as I've never seen anything called at all when someone does this. This could easily happen to any number of us shooters but I feel certain it would be rare...rare... of any of us would ever get the "P" because they are not intentionally trying to cheat. If they are habitually doing this then they definitely deserve the "progressive" SOG penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 · Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Possum, I certainly would not call them cheaters. I would call them competitive. If someone called me a cheater because of jumping the timer, it would be the last time I ever visited their club. I have grown very weary of the nastiness in CAS. There is no need for it. If someone was a habitual timer jumper, I'd communicate with them. I'd tell them this is not acceptable. They would get one warning, then a P, then a SDQ. It seems in today's world that no one looks each other in the eye and lays out the limits. I guess I am old school. I still believe in talking to folks, and settling things with a handshake. Folks always get a fair shake at my club, but they know not to take advantage of our good spirit. I can and will make the hard call. Other than what to call a shooter who intentionally/habitually jumps the timer (which, IMO, IS cheating)...what's the difference between my handling of the situation and the way you state it would be handled at your club? I mentioned giving the shooter ONE warning (communicating)...which would be a "FAIR SHAKE", wouldn't it? I don't understand the need to inject that comment re: "nastiness in CAS" ? ...and why a SDQ vs a justified SOG penalty (as defined in the rules)? Link to comment
McCandless Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I see in one of the training videos the idea is to jump at the start of the beep, and not wait for the beep to end. I'm sure this has led to some 'jumping the gun", trying to do what they've seen. Like has been said, a restart with some "communication" is in order. I doubt it would happen a 2nd time. If it does... they've been warned. Most everyone i've come across in SASS has been trying their best to obey all the rules. I personally have never come across a cheater. Those of you who have been around longer or are more widely traveled may have... guess I've been fortunate...hope to stay that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 · Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Hidden by Black Harris #154, March 7, 2013 - No reason given Other than what to call a shooter who intentionally/habitually jumps the timer (which, IMO, IS cheating)...what's the difference between my handling of the situation and the way you state it would be handled at your club? I mentioned giving the shooter ONE warning (communicating)...which would be a "FAIR SHAKE", wouldn't it? I don't understand the need to inject that comment re: "nastiness in CAS" ? ...and why a SDQ vs a justified SOG penalty (as defined in the rules)? Calling someone a cheater is the ultimate of nastiness IMHO. To me, there is nothing lower than a liar and a cheater. I would have to think long and hard before I accused a person of either. Some folks toss the terms around freely. And yes, maybe I misquoted. A warning, a P, then a SOG, or SDQ??? A “spirit of the game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage. Jumping the timer is not a stage instruction per se IMO, but I can be convinced otherwise. No big deal, since I have never had to get to that point because I talk to folks, rather than trying to throw my weight around like I see some folks do. Link to comment
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 It is good to vary the time a bit, IMHO. I have had timers that either set the timer off on the end of the "Y" in Stand By or wait so long after "Stand By" that you turn your attention to them to see what is wrong. in my personal opinion, it is infinitely better to give a consistent "stand by" to beep and deal with the very, very few that will try to jump than it is to play "Gotcha" (or appear to be playing "Gotcha") by variations in the time to beep. If someone jumps - call them on it. Don't mess with the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 Creeker, I agree 100%! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I would have let it go but not without an explanation of what he did and next time he would have to start over. Give him the benefit of the doubt unless he's a real gamer looking for a 1/2 second advantage. Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 well, iffn it twas RYE, I would have let him shoot the stage, THEN tell him to go reload because I was laffing so hard I dun forgot to start the timer..... CPBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 If you're consistent, and you run the clock enough, the shooters that subscribe to the "start at the beginning of the beep" philosophy that McCandless mentioned will learn your timing and pace you. At which point my timing will begin to vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I would have let it go but not without an explanation of what he did and next time he would have to start over. Give him the benefit of the doubt unless he's a real gamer looking for a 1/2 second advantage. Rye And when the match ends and the shooter takes first by 4/10s of a second what do you say to the second place shooter who didn't jump the buzzer? (Let's assume both shooters are in it to win it types) If you're consistent, and you run the clock enough, the shooters that subscribe to the "start at the beginning of the beep" philosophy that McCandless mentioned will learn your timing and pace you. At which point my timing will begin to vary. If the shooter doesn't start until he hears the beep why would you do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 If you're consistent, and you run the clock enough, the shooters that subscribe to the "start at the beginning of the beep" philosophy that McCandless mentioned will learn your timing and pace you. At which point my timing will begin to vary. Why would you do that? Nothing says the shooter has to wait til the end of the beep to start shooting??? The beep takes time to complete, depending on the timer as much as a second. Many shooters attempt to start when they first hear the start of the beep. They are not cheating. If they do start before the start of the beep occurs then they should be penalized in some manner. Sounds like just another match official trying to slow down faster shooters unfairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I've probably jumped the timer maybe twice in my 7-8 yrs of shooting. And it wasn't because I was trying to gain an edge. It was because I 'thought' I heard a slight 'beeping' sound. Because with my hearing, or lack thereof, I've actually not heard the beeps and just stood there. I would hate to think that I get up on Saturday morning to enjoy a good shoot with friends just so one of those friends wants to 'trick' me by playing around with various delayed beeps after the initial 'Standby' is given. If the TO is gona say 'Standby ..... beep' for everyone else, then I don't like it when they do a 'Standby ....................................beep' for a particular shooter they want to trick. Just don't seem right in my book. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 It's called being tough but fair..... I'd STOP him (the first time) & give him one more "shot" at a clean start; watching closely to make certain to NOT start the clock if he even twitched on the lever. If he somehow managed to jump the timer AGAIN, I'd let him continue & assess a "P" ...if he was in the habit of jumping the timer, he would get ONE warning for the match, then a 30-second SOG penalty on top of any procedurals. ...some might consider that being a "hard @$$", but that's just how I deal with cheaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Hi Folks, Just want to add that the worst starting position for "creepers" to take advantage of is Port Arms. Every time I've seen creeping, it has been with that position. Just don't use it! Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I have had timers that either set the timer off on the end of the "Y" in Stand By or wait so long after "Stand By" that you turn your attention to them to see what is wrong. in my personal opinion, it is infinitely better to give a consistent "stand by" to beep and deal with the very, very few that will try to jump than it is to play "Gotcha" (or appear to be playing "Gotcha") by variations in the time to beep. If someone jumps - call them on it. Don't mess with the rest of us. “Stand By” should always be the last words spoken with a one- to three-second pause before the start signal unless the stage calls for the shooter to say a line or use a prop before the time starts. “Indicate Ready by Saying the Line” can optionally be used to cue the competitor to self-start the stage. The “Stand By” command should still be used after the competitor says their line. ~RO1 Handbook. It is not messing with someone to vary the timer between 1 and 3 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Okie, if you polled the shooters on your posse do you think the majority would prefer that you vary their time, or be consistent? I would respond consistent, and I would be willing to bet a substantial amount of money that every single member of the posse I typically shoot with would feel the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Question ?????? Don't you all South of the boarder use timers that have a Auto feature that BEEPs from 1-3 seconds after the button is pressed ??? Up here it's Stand-by press button on the "Y" of by and the timmer randomly triggers the BEEP in 1-3 seconds ...... I would Stop the shooter , ask if they had another round for the rifle on their person , and if yes "Would you like to load one into your rifle ,while it's pointed safely downrange with the hammer down of the fired round or do you wish to go to the Un-loading table to get ready for your LAST restart ...." This would not be a option for those shooting Big-boys or Henry's ...... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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