Dropping a loaded pistol

[Captain Bill Burt]

I know a lot of clubs vary from the SASS rules at their monthly matches. But in a case like a mdq if you allow the shooter to proceed, I

think that sends a message to new shooters that rules in SASS are "flexible". Then they may be disappointed wghen they go to a club who actually enforces regs.

And a top shooter should be no different than a bottom feeder in how the rules are applied as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly! I'm mindful of the instruction for TOs not to be a hardass, but when it comes to safety rules I just don't agree with 'flexibility'.

[Baddog Nobiscuit #46532]

Well, having been there,........I think an MDQ either counts for everyone, or it counts for no one. It's embarrassing sure but, it's a timeout to think about safety. What went wrong, what to do better next time. Take your penalty, go work the posse, resolve to be safer in the future. Respectfully, BN (added later) Would sweeping another shooter be OK as long as no one was shot? Continue shooting "for fun"?

[COLORADO JACKSON]

I would like to explain the exact cicumstances of this event. Shooter started with shotgun, a hull stuck in the shotgun as he moved, he leaned back to clear the hull and his pistol hung on a doorframe and came out of the holster and dropped to the ground. Shooter was stopped immediately, made all weapons safe, and went to the truck to pack up his stuff. The RO polled the 17 shooters in the only posse for the day and asked them if anyone disagreed with letting him continue without a score. Nobody had any objections. Shooter continued and all went well. Everyone understands exactly how the MDQ rule reads, but we thought under these specific circumstances it was OK for the shooter to continue with no score, for practice only. I and everyone I know in this sport takes safety very seriously, and understand what can happen if safety is not a top priority. In this instance, I saw nothing unsafe about this shooter and agreed with letting him continue. I know there are many opinions on this issue, I feel there was nothing at all done wrong.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

How is a loaded pistol falling on the ground not unsafe? Does this pistol know it fell because its owner slipped rather than dropping it? What does the fact that the owner was a 'top shooter' have to do with it?

 

I agree - at our monthly shoot if a loaded pistol were to drop it would be a MDQ no matter what, how, or who. We follow the rules because we would not be doing justice to the shooter and other participants. There are some allowances for reshoots on mechanical issues after the first shot goes down range, but when it comes to safety - it is what it is. With that said...our group is extremely understanding, supportive and helpful..We aren't harda$$es, but realize the extreme importance of being safe and following those rules that pertain to safety.

 

GG ~

[Captain Bill Burt]

I would like to explain the exact cicumstances of this event. Shooter started with shotgun, a hull stuck in the shotgun as he moved, he leaned back to clear the hull and his pistol hung on a doorframe and came out of the holster and dropped to the ground. Shooter was stopped immediately, made all weapons safe, and went to the truck to pack up his stuff. The RO polled the 17 shooters in the only posse for the day and asked them if anyone disagreed with letting him continue without a score. Nobody had any objections. Shooter continued and all went well. Everyone understands exactly how the MDQ rule reads, but we thought under these specific circumstances it was OK for the shooter to continue with no score, for practice only. I and everyone I know in this sport takes safety very seriously, and understand what can happen if safety is not a top priority. In this instance, I saw nothing unsafe about this shooter and agreed with letting him continue. I know there are many opinions on this issue, I feel there was nothing at all done wrong.

Hi Colorado, I want to be clear that I mean no disrepect to you, or to the members of your posse who voted to allow the shooter to continue, but I do respectfully disagree with that call. In my opinion, the shooter should be aware of where he and his guns are in relation to the objects around them and avoid actions that result in a pistol, rifle or shotgun falling and hitting the ground. God forbid it went off and someone ends up with an extra hole, would the fact that it resulted from the pistol hitting the doorframe rather than cold hands, or too fast of a draw be a consolation to the person on the receiving end?

 

Again, it's just my opinion, but when a loaded gun hits the ground during the course of fire (absent a prop failure) it's pretty hard to say nothing was done wrong, and the cause doesn't matter much to someone who's been shot. Hence, MDQ shooter sits.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

I would like to explain the exact cicumstances of this event. Shooter started with shotgun, a hull stuck in the shotgun as he moved, he leaned back to clear the hull and his pistol hung on a doorframe and came out of the holster and dropped to the ground. Shooter was stopped immediately, made all weapons safe, and went to the truck to pack up his stuff. The RO polled the 17 shooters in the only posse for the day and asked them if anyone disagreed with letting him continue without a score. Nobody had any objections. Shooter continued and all went well. Everyone understands exactly how the MDQ rule reads, but we thought under these specific circumstances it was OK for the shooter to continue with no score, for practice only. I and everyone I know in this sport takes safety very seriously, and understand what can happen if safety is not a top priority. In this instance, I saw nothing unsafe about this shooter and agreed with letting him continue. I know there are many opinions on this issue, I feel there was nothing at all done wrong.

The trouble is it opens the door for arguing and accommodation when safety is the real issue.

Ask yourself what would happen if that same shooter, while shooting for no score to finish out the match, had an injury-causing accident? the insurance companies and lawyers would have a field day. Ya might lose the range, and if somebody else got hurt/killed the doubt and guilt would linger forever, ie "maybe Joe wasn't all that sharp, should have been made to sit it out" etc.

 

Cut n dried, a " bright line" with certain consequences is a better answer when a loaded dropped gun is involved.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Anything can be explained away if you toss in enough "ifs" and "buts" to try and justify a particular situation. An MDQ is an MDQ, there are no ifs or buts about it.

[Curley Fryes]

Yep !!! Done for the match .....

 

Put the guns away and stay with your possie and help-out ......

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Yep, this happened to me and I did stay and help out. Everybody was very supportive and the match director even gave me a card for a free future match. Rules are rules.

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

Yep, this happened to me and I did stay and help out. Everybody was very supportive and the match director even gave me a card for a free future match. Rules are rules.

 

+1 Curley. It can be a little harsh when it's a multi-day match -- but safety is paramount.

 

It's been recommended in a RO course to ask for the guns to go into the truck. However, the pard walks a little taller in everyone's eyes if s/he comes back and helps with the match.

 

Uno (Saved From The Same Fate By The Front Sight Catching Leather) Mas

[Noz]

No! Dropped loaded pistol and you are done for the day.

 

I've had it happen twice.

 

In both cases I put the guns away, took a deep breath and was thankful no one was hurt..

[San Fernando Slim, SASS #20521]

i have only seen a few MDQ's and in each case the shooter stayed, not to shoot, but to help with the posse duties.

SFS

[macinaw]

How is a loaded pistol falling on the ground not unsafe? Does this pistol know it fell because its owner slipped rather than dropping it? What does the fact that the owner was a 'top shooter' have to do with it?

You are right. The revolver falling on the ground is unsafe. It didn't fall because the shooter was unsafe. He slipped on wet ground. The fact that the shooter was a "top shooter" was probably the reason why the MD let him continue shooting. He has always been safe.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I would like to explain the exact cicumstances of this event. Shooter started with shotgun, a hull stuck in the shotgun as he moved, he leaned back to clear the hull and his pistol hung on a doorframe and came out of the holster and dropped to the ground. Shooter was stopped immediately, made all weapons safe, and went to the truck to pack up his stuff. The RO polled the 17 shooters in the only posse for the day and asked them if anyone disagreed with letting him continue without a score. Nobody had any objections. Shooter continued and all went well. Everyone understands exactly how the MDQ rule reads, but we thought under these specific circumstances it was OK for the shooter to continue with no score, for practice only. I and everyone I know in this sport takes safety very seriously, and understand what can happen if safety is not a top priority. In this instance, I saw nothing unsafe about this shooter and agreed with letting him continue. I know there are many opinions on this issue, I feel there was nothing at all done wrong.

 

Don't reall matter how it happened. It happened.

 

And the problem I see with it is. What are ya going to do NEXT time???

 

Happens to a different shooter next month. Gets a MDQ. Then says HEY. YOU LET THAT GUY SHOOT LAST MONTH.

WHY CAN'T I. I DROVE FARTER THAN HE DID.

 

Then you either let him. and have to do it ever time it happens. OR you could make for some getting upset that they are not

treated like the others. makes for hard feelings in the club.

 

 

Just go by the rule. And EVERONE has to live with it. Every time. Even steven, for everybody, every month.

[Cypress Sun]

Happens to a different shooter next month. Gets a MDQ. Then says HEY. YOU LET THAT GUY SHOOT LAST MONTH.

WHY CAN'T I. I DROVE FARTER THAN HE DID.

 

I hate driving with farters........let alone TO'em.

[Quick Draw Granpaw #48525]

NO three strikes in this game! One has to understand how serious

dropping a loaded gun could be! Dropping a baseball bat not to serious, but

dropping a gun could cost someone dearly! ME

Happy trails

Quick Draw Grandpa 48525

[Cat Brules]

While I understand that convention says that you are done for the day, I really don't see the legal issue. What difference does it make if you shoot the rest of the day versus the next day. What made the shooter safer? Did he/she go through some kind of training to make them safer? This was the same question that arose several years ago with the DQ forward rule. Luckily that was laid to rest.

 

Well, I do see the legal issue. Besides being simple common sense for a host of reasons, there is the risk managment side, both for safety and financially. It's been mentioned, but it needs to be at the forefront here.

 

What if (s)he's allowed to continue shooting and does cause anothr incident, which results in injury or death, or simply another dropped, loaded weapon? Then, further, what if it is then determined that the shooter is impaired (alcohol and/or legal or illegal drugs)? The club is hit with legal problems it may not recover from and, possibly, you have a hurt or dead member, to boot.

 

I say that if someone drops a loaded weapon, (s)he's done for that match, period. No asking and no other jacking around with the issue. Stay with the posse and perform consultations and other posse duties.

 

Hurt pride and embarassment is not the issue, but the club's (membership) intertests demand that the shooter stop shooting for that day and continue with other posse duties. Anyway, why would anyone want that person to go home?

 

Cat Brules

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Well, I do see the legal issue. Besides being simple common sense for a host of reasons, there is the risk managment side, both for safety and financially. It's been mentioned, but it needs to be at the forefront here.

 

What if (s)he's allowed to continue shooting and does cause anothr incident, which results in injury or death, or simply another dropped, loaded weapon? Then, further, what if it is then determined that the shooter is impaired (alcohol and/or legal or illegal drugs)? The club is hit with legal problems it may not recover from and, possibly, you have a hurt or dead member, to boot.

 

I say that if someone drops a loaded weapon, (s)he's done for that match, period. No asking and no other jacking around with the issue. Stay with the posse and perform consultations and other posse duties.

 

Hurt pride and embarassment is not the issue, but the club's (membership) intertests demand that the shooter stop shooting for that day and continue with other posse duties. Anyway, why would anyone want that person to go home?

 

Cat Brules

Hang on Cat, I think you misunderstood my post. I agreed that someone should be done for the day. I disagree that it changes or inhances anyones legal stance. No matter when the next time you allow them to shoot.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

The legal issue is this. SASS rules say MDQ = done for day. If we let em slide and then have another incident, we would be shown to have ignored what amounts to "best practices" and the MDs, ROs, etc will see the inside of a court room. It isn't as if we could say "whoda thunk?" ya ain't gotta think. Just follow the rules. ANY jury would say "they had a rule and ignored it", and even the insurance folk might try and skinny out, letting the RO lose his house, range lose their assets, etc.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

As a match director, range owner or club officer, I can not imagine sitting on a witness stand trying to explain to the jury how a shooter that had already gotten a MDQ was allowed to continue shooting that day before he had a second accident and injured himself or someone else.

[Krazy Kajun]

I would like to explain the exact cicumstances of this event. Shooter started with shotgun, a hull stuck in the shotgun as he moved, he leaned back to clear the hull and his pistol hung on a doorframe and came out of the holster and dropped to the ground. Shooter was stopped immediately, made all weapons safe, and went to the truck to pack up his stuff. The RO polled the 17 shooters in the only posse for the day and asked them if anyone disagreed with letting him continue without a score. Nobody had any objections. Shooter continued and all went well. Everyone understands exactly how the MDQ rule reads, but we thought under these specific circumstances it was OK for the shooter to continue with no score, for practice only. I and everyone I know in this sport takes safety very seriously, and understand what can happen if safety is not a top priority. In this instance, I saw nothing unsafe about this shooter and agreed with letting him continue. I know there are many opinions on this issue, I feel there was nothing at all done wrong.

Looks like the shooter started out doing his part....went to the truck to pack his stuff. I agree with most everyone else here that when you get a MDQ you are done. I have come to respect a few folks I shoot with that have had that happen and stayed around and worked the rest of the day with posse duties.

[Harvey Mushman]

Count me as inflexible on this clear safety violation. Doesn't matter how it happened, it only matters that it is a serious safety violation we have to enforce rigidly for safety and liability. We do allow judgment in a lot of our rules, but this is not one, IMHO.

 

I can't think of another sport where a safety DQ allows one to continue "for fun"?

 

 

Actually, this thread shocked the heck out of me - I can't even contemplate that a MDQ might not always mean DONE?

 

 

Harvey

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

As a match director, range owner or club officer, I can not imagine sitting on a witness stand trying to explain to the jury how a shooter that had already gotten a MDQ was allowed to continue shooting that day before he had a second accident and injured himself or someone else.

Exactly. it'd be a like a cop explaining how a driver who had blown over the limit for BAC was allowed to drive home, then had a wreck. There might be extenuating circumstances where they don't ticket em (my sister got pulled over and blew .010 on the night dad died) but ya damned sure can't let em drive.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I hate when legal stuff is brought into these threads.

 

 

AO

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

You are right. The revolver falling on the ground is unsafe. It didn't fall because the shooter was unsafe. He slipped on wet ground. The fact that the shooter was a "top shooter" was probably the reason why the MD let him continue shooting. He has always been safe.

While if MD was going to let a top shooter continue with no score they should allow anybody who was normally safe to continue with no score,you cant play favorites , but we would only know if the same thing happened to a non top shooter.

 

 

AO

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Since all pistols are supposed to be cleared at the loading table, how many of you have personally seen a SAA have an AD when dropped? Don't get me wrong. I am 100% behind safety rules, but I want to know if an AD has occurred with the hammer riding in an empty chamber.

[Yusta B.]

Since all pistols are supposed to be cleared at the loading table, how many of you have personally seen a SAA have an AD when dropped? Don't get me wrong. I am 100% behind safety rules, but I want to know if an AD has occurred with the hammer riding in an empty chamber.

 

Well, in the same line of thinking, how many people have you seen have to go around because they hit an empty chamber during a 5 shot string ? And you knew it wasn't because of short stroking a shot.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I don't know this for a fact, not having been involved with SASS rules making, but I suspect that it was deemed better to have a blanket rule for dropped loaded guns and another one for unloaded guns rather than creating a multitude of rules dealing with the different potential statuses of a loaded gun, (hammer down on empty chamber, hammer down on live round, hammer cocked, etc.).

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

It's the rule...and it's a great one. Play by the rules.

 

GG

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Well, in the same line of thinking, how many people have you seen have to go around because they hit an empty chamber during a 5 shot string ? And you knew it wasn't because of short stroking a shot.

 

Very true, and like I say, I am NOT bitching about the rule. It is a good one. I just don't have any heartburn if the MD wants to let the shooter continue for no score, based on the circumstances. We've all seen the shooter run through a doorway and a pistol get snagged and fall to the ground. We've probably all seen a shooter trying to get their 97 closed and blast a hole in the ground four feet in front of them. We've probably all seen a rifle staged upright, and then slide out and hit the ground. There but for the grace of God go I...

 

I only had one MD for dropping a loaded pistol in very cold weather. I didn't even ask if I could shoot for no score. I just grabbed the timer and went to work. If offered an opportunity to shoot for no score, I would have turned it down. It was too cold and I no longer felt safe that day.

 

Edit: BTW, I've only had to give two MDQs. One shooter got mad and went home. The other shooter, an elder statesman, went to his pickup and put everything away and came back and worked the unloading table. I've never been put in the spot to decide whether to let a shooter shoot for practice.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I've only give one, at a State match for sweeping the loading table officer's face with a loaded pistol. By the time it was reported to me he had also swept the scorekeeper. I politely gave him his MDQ, he argued, then left and didn't return.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I know a couple of shooters who have dropped guns or done other MDQ offences. None of them would ask to continue to shoot or accept an offer to do so. IMO, take your "punishment" and "man/woman up." Most have stayed and helped.

 

Asking to continue or accepting an offer to continue sets a bad example and shows disrespect for the severity of the infraction. After all, a MDQ is a "major safety infraction" ... that has "high potential for personal injury."

 

By not applying the penalty and stopping the shooter from shooting, the message sent is that pushing the envelope beyond a safe limit is okay. Even though a gun may catch on a prop and get jerked out of the holster, that shooter was doing something other shooters were able to safely avoid.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Hi Folks,

 

I know a couple of shooters who have dropped guns or done other MDQ offences. None of them would ask to continue to shoot or accept an offer to do so. IMO, take your "punishment" and "man/woman up." Most have stayed and helped.

 

Asking to continue or accepting an offer to continue sets a bad example and shows disrespect for the severity of the infraction. After all, a MDQ is a "major safety infraction" ... that has "high potential for personal injury."

 

By not applying the penalty and stopping the shooter from shooting, the message sent is that pushing the envelope beyond a safe limit is okay. Even though a gun may catch on a prop and get jerked out of the holster, that shooter was doing something other shooters were able to safely avoid.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

I agree here - I know that if I dropped a loaded gun I would elect to not shoot for the rest of the day. However, staying and helping with posse chores would help me get through the anguish ...afterwards over a beer with the fellas we can talk about how it happened and how to prevent it next time depending on the situation.

 

GG ~

[Cat Brules]

Hang on Cat, I think you misunderstood my post. I agreed that someone should be done for the day. I disagree that it changes or inhances anyones legal stance. No matter when the next time you allow them to shoot.

 

Sorry, Goody. I DID misunderstand what you said. I apologize.

 

It's obvious that most of us are in agreement on this issue of not allowing someone to continue shooting for no score after a match DQ and, indeed, I believe that most shooters who understand the rules, the game and gun safety, on their own, wouldn't even consider continuing to shoot in a situation like this.

[Griff]

I don't know this for a fact, not having been involved with SASS rules making, but I suspect that it was deemed better to have a blanket rule for dropped loaded guns and another one for unloaded guns rather than creating a multitude of rules dealing with the different potential statuses of a loaded gun, (hammer down on empty chamber, hammer down on live round, hammer cocked, etc.).

Yep, "keep it simple stupid" was very much the order of the day. There was some argument about making "ANY" dropped gun a MDQ... but some sense was allowed. And as far as WHO was on what side of those discussion shall remain unsaid. A lot of the discussions were simply made so that all sides of an issue could be viewed. So it don't matter.

[Boon Doggle]

"Circumstances" be damned. You screwed up and dropped a loaded gun. Now pack 'em up, take the rest of the day off, and cowboy up.