Category Controversy

[Most Wanted]

Cowboy "Open Class", I don't think so. If a shooter is 17 to 34, wants to shoot one pistol at a time, with two hands, smokeless powder and not dress B-Western, they have no other choice, but to shoot Cowboy. Allowing a 55 year old to shoot Cowboy and bump a 17 year old kid from placing does not make it an open class. I can hear people moaning already, but not nearly as loud as if we were to let a 17 year old kid shoot 49er and bump someone out of placing in their class. The rules seem only in place to protect the older shooters, but it should work both ways. The rules view being older as a disadvantage, but many Wranglers, 49ers, and Seniors finish above many Cowboys and the Cowboys are the only ones who cannot switch to another class to place higher in their category. If you have age-based categories, they should be followed or they should be dropped. I have a son that is 18, and is only worried about how he finishes overall, not in his class, so this does not apply to him. It applies to the kid who is somewhat new to shooting and even though he may have came in mid pack he is happy to have gotten third in Cowboy.

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

I almost was bad!

 

You have described the situation correctly. The age categories make the assumption that age is associated with diminished performance thus the need for protection. The fact is there are more old folks than young folks in this game and if we did not permit older folks in the "young" categories the older categories would get awfully full.

 

The question remains, is this a feature or a bug? Believe me, there have been novels worth of words written about the category situation but a workable solution doesn't seem to have emerged.

[Most Wanted]

Do you have a proposal to fix this situation?

It's easy. Shoot your age based category.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Cowboy "Open Class", I don't think so. If a shooter is 17 to 34, wants to shoot one pistol at a time, with two hands, smokeless powder and not dress B-Western, they have no other choice, but to shoot Cowboy. Allowing a 55 year old to shoot Cowboy and bump a 17 year old kid from placing does not make it an open class. I can hear people moaning already, but not nearly as loud as if we were to let a 17 year old kid shoot 49er and bump someone out of placing in their class. The rules seem only in place to protect the older shooters, but it should work both ways. The rules view being older as a disadvantage, but many Wranglers, 49ers, and Seniors finish above many Cowboys and the Cowboys are the only ones who cannot switch to another class to place higher in their category. If you have age-based categories, they should be followed or they should be dropped. I have a son that is 18, and is only worried about how he finishes overall, not in his class, so this does not apply to him. It applies to the kid who is somewhat new to shooting and even though he may have came in mid pack he is happy to have gotten third in Cowboy.

I see you hit this forum with both feet in the Fire, I think my first post would have been Hi I'm such and such but back to your post, this issue you speak of was addressed and failed to gain the 2/3 needed to be law (rule) they did vote a couple years ago to make you shoot in your own age bracket with no sliding a 49 could only shoot 49 and a senior could only shoot senior, I think you get my drift, now anybody can shoot B wetern, classic Cowboy, Frontierman, Frontier cartridge and so on.

 

KK

[Most Wanted]

I almost was bad!

 

You have described the situation correctly. The age categories make the assumption that age is associated with diminished performance thus the need for protection. The fact is there are more old folks than young folks in this game and if we did not permit older folks in the "young" categories the older categories would get awfully full.

 

The question remains, is this a feature or a bug? Believe me, there have been novels worth of words written about the category situation but a workable solution doesn't seem to have emerged.

 

 

Someone that is more worried about awards than turning away young shooters is a person I can't relate too. Words won't bridge that gap. I'm not saying you're that guy.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Dump the age based categorys. I never have been a fan of the age based categories since 49er. I'll accept Senior and above and of course Junior and below. Everything in between should be lumped together as it once was. If a shooter in that group has an infirmity, that's a different issue and perhaps a different category.

 

Fillmore

[Captain Bill Burt]

Someone that is more worried about awards than turning away young shooters is a person I can't relate too. Words won't bridge that gap. I'm not saying you're that guy.

So let me get this straight, you're saying that winning awards shouldn't be important?

 

And you're also saying we shouldn't worry about winning these unimportant awards so more of them will be available to attract young shooters?

 

I personally don't care much where I place as a 49r, I focus on overall. But I also don't mind other shooter's picking whatever category they want.

 

I'm teaching my seven year old to focus on having fun and being a better shooter every week than he was the week before and not worry about what the other shooters do.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I see you hit this forum with both feet in the Fire, I think my first post would have been Hi I'm such and such but back to your post, this issue you speak of was addressed and failed to gain the 2/3 needed to be law (rule) they did vote a couple years ago to make you shoot in your own age bracket with no sliding a 49 could only shoot 49 and a senior could only shoot senior, I think you get my drift, now anybody can shoot B wetern, classic Cowboy, Frontierman, Frontier cartridge and so on.

 

KK

 

TG Summit 2011 Agenda

...

2) Should the limiting criteria for shooters in Age Based categories be changed from the current “minimum qualifying age OR GREATER” to “between the ages of…”?

(e.g. Wranglers from 36-48; 49ers from 49-59; Seniors from 60-64; etc.)

 

A YES vote would no longer allow a shooter to compete in Age Based categories below his/her actual age range.

Cowboy/Cowgirl category age range would end at 35 years of age.

The Junior (Buckaroo/ette and Young Gun) categories would NOT be affected.

 

A NO vote would leave the Age Based category restrictions unchanged.

 

(E.g. Two shooters with adjustable-sighted revolvers & a 66 or 73 rifle:

-- A 65 yr old competitor currently has the option to sign up in FIVE Age Based categories:

Silver Senior, Senior, 49er, Wrangler or Cowboy;

-- A 26 yr old using those firearms only has ONE option: Cowboy)

 

Item #2 For 112=39.44% -- Against 170=59.86% -- Abstain 2=.070% FAIL

[Most Wanted]

So let me get this straight, you're saying that winning awards shouldn't be important?

 

And you're also saying we shouldn't worry about winning these unimportant awards so more of them will be available to attract young shooters?

 

I personally don't care much where I place as a 49r, I focus on overall. But I also don't mind other shooter's picking whatever category they want.

 

I'm teaching my seven year old to focus on having fun and being a better shooter every week than he was the week before and not worry about what the other shooters do.

I clearly said that young shooters are more important than awards. I stated that the 17 year old may have to compete against an older more experienced shooter. I also am only interested in where I place overall, but the object is to look at this from that 17 year olds point of view. We obviously care what other shooters do or we would'nt be having this conversation. Also thank you for bringing your son up shooting. Thats what its all about.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I'll show you a 13 y/o that can kick anyone's butt in any category almost anytime he cares to try it. That idea failed for a couple of good reasons. One of which is that it didn't get enough votes! :lol:/>

 

The other is that the whole category foofaw is a mess and we all know it. Nothing is going to happen, but it's almost February and we haven't beat this dead horse in at least 9 months.

 

I'm predicting 3 pages this time. Anyone want the over/under?:ph34r:/>

 

;;

[Rock Hound]

Anyone want the over/under?

 

No over/unders in SASS; only SxS, lever, or hammered pump :lol:/>/>

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

Cowboy "Open Class", I don't think so. If a shooter is 17 to 34, wants to shoot one pistol at a time, with two hands, smokeless powder and not dress B-Western, they have no other choice, but to shoot Cowboy. Allowing a 55 year old to shoot Cowboy and bump a 17 year old kid from placing does not make it an open class. I can hear people moaning already, but not nearly as loud as if we were to let a 17 year old kid shoot 49er and bump someone out of placing in their class. The rules seem only in place to protect the older shooters, but it should work both ways. The rules view being older as a disadvantage, but many Wranglers, 49ers, and Seniors finish above many Cowboys and the Cowboys are the only ones who cannot switch to another class to place higher in their category. If you have age-based categories, they should be followed or they should be dropped. I have a son that is 18, and is only worried about how he finishes overall, not in his class, so this does not apply to him. It applies to the kid who is somewhat new to shooting and even though he may have came in mid pack he is happy to have gotten third in Cowboy.

 

AMEN BROTHER

 

the selfish and self indulgent will argue against it by insulting a youngsters desire to win while filling their own trophy room.

 

welcome to the wire! jump right in and speak your mind.

cc

[Captain Bill Burt]

I clearly said that young shooters are more important than awards. I stated that the 17 year old may have to compete against an older more experienced shooter. I also am only interested in where I place overall, but the object is to look at this from that 17 year olds point of view. We obviously care what other shooters do or we would'nt be having this conversation. Also thank you for bringing your son up shooting. Thats what its all about.

I think you should be commended for your concern about attracting new shooters to SASS, I just don't think rule changes aimed at making it easier for them to place is the right approach. IMHO, we reward our children to much for to little today. Everyone is a winner, which means no one is. The teams in our local soccer and basketball leagues all get the same trophies, regardless of their win loss record. I don't want to look at things from the viewpoint of a 17 year old in today's culture, I want to raise a 17 year old who shares my views that winning requires work and perseverance.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Cowboy "Open Class", I don't think so. If a shooter is 17 to 34, wants to shoot one pistol at a time, with two hands, smokeless powder and not dress B-Western, they have no other choice, but to shoot Cowboy. Allowing a 55 year old to shoot Cowboy and bump a 17 year old kid from placing does not make it an open class. I can hear people moaning already, but not nearly as loud as if we were to let a 17 year old kid shoot 49er and bump someone out of placing in their class. The rules seem only in place to protect the older shooters, but it should work both ways. The rules view being older as a disadvantage, but many Wranglers, 49ers, and Seniors finish above many Cowboys and the Cowboys are the only ones who cannot switch to another class to place higher in their category. If you have age-based categories, they should be followed or they should be dropped. I have a son that is 18, and is only worried about how he finishes overall, not in his class, so this does not apply to him. It applies to the kid who is somewhat new to shooting and even though he may have came in mid pack he is happy to have gotten third in Cowboy.

Are you a SASS member or a troll?

[Chisler Wood]

I for one didn't get a questionare when they axed "traditional" I'm technically wrangler but I choose to shoot cowboy. I don't give a rip how old someone is. I'm there to try to win the match and have a good time. I've been beat by grampas and little kids before doesn't mean a thing. If a competitor is in my class they are just that, just another competitor.

 

Cw

[Doc Shapiro]

Should I bring up a junior that won overall at EOT not so long ago when he was 15? I don't think the category issue is going to dissuade the younger shooters. Maybe instead it will motivate them to work a little harder? Or maybe they don't care and are having fun?

 

Revising the category structure isn't a bad idea. But there have been very few workable solutions that encompass the entirety.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I choose to shoot in my correct age category. I wouldn't feel right slithering down a category in order to place better.

[Grizzly Dave]

By age I qualify for 49er, but I shoot Cowboy. Although I am starting to dabble with gunfighter, but that is another story...

 

Why you may ask? Grizz, are you cherry picking? Do you move down to fill up your trophy room?

 

Never, no, not even once have I taken home an award in cowboy as best I can recall, unless maybe I was the ONLY one in the category.

 

In my experience, quite often the Cowboy category is where the overall winner of the match is located, and not because they moved down, but because that is where they fit age wise. I like to joke that I was beat by the winner by just 'that' much, LOL even though I may have placed below half of the others in the match.

 

Cowboy generally has far fewer entrants than 49er and above, that is why I shoot Cowboy. I'd rather finish 12th out of 15 than finish 53rd out of 62.

 

That's the view from my rocking chair.

Grizz

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

BK, that greased t bolt is 14 now I do believe. Old age ain't slowin' him down any.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I am one that thinks every shooter decides for themselves their reason to stay and participate in Cowboy Action Shooting.

 

I have seen folks stay in this game because of the competition.

I have seen folks stay in this game because of the play.

I have seen folks stay in this game because of the people.

 

The 17 year old that is discouraged from play because he is getting beat by old folks is not a shooter that was going to stick around anyways.

Even if you had patted their head and given them a ribbon every shoot.

 

My daughter wins awards at almost every shoot because of the scarce nature of Buckarette shooters.

Those awards mean little to her - but she is the first to the clubs website to see where she placed overall, because her drive is to beat those old folks that have beaten her.

 

I guess there may be folks that exist whose sole purpose for playing is recognition, but I have never seen anyone stay in this game because they might win something.

While awards and accolades are nice - you could do away with all the awards right now; most of us are still going to be setting steel and shooting this weekend.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

My idea on this is to eliminate all age based cats, other than Little Buckaroo, and after each match we can allow any shooter to stand and announce their age to receive what ever desired recognition. Do that last so I want have to hang around, my feet are hurting by then and I want to go home!

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Abolish all categories, then have each shooter pick his/her personal category at the end of a match and when they see their standings.

Example: Shooting against someone your age, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. would be decided by whose Birthday was earliest, and so on. If you were born on February 1st, your category would be Men/ Ladies Feb. 1, etc, and so on. Leap year shooters would be allowed to only compete every 4 years. :)/>/> MT

 

I use to believe CAS was camaraderie, fun and enjoyment with people of same like, but with continuing controversial post, "Winning" is at the top, otherwise Category expansion wouldn't be so important. All I see is watering down a game, so everyone walks away with a buckle. Hard work at practicing, as do many of our TOP shooters have done, I admire and they deserve the Buckles and recognition. All that adding more and more categories to our game does, is water down those that really deserve and work hard to be at the top.

[Krazy Kajun]

I think you should be commended for your concern about attracting new shooters to SASS, I just don't think rule changes aimed at making it easier for them to place is the right approach. IMHO, we reward our children to much for to little today. Everyone is a winner, which means no one is. The teams in our local soccer and basketball leagues all get the same trophies, regardless of their win loss record. I don't want to look at things from the viewpoint of a 17 year old in today's culture, I want to raise a 17 year old who shares my views that winning requires work and perseverance.

This....this is what we need more of. In today's politically correct society everyone is a winner and gets a participation trophy.....what does that teach our young folks?

 

1. Oh son, don't worry about what classes you take in high school or your GPA or you SAT scores, everyone gets into college (participation trophy).

 

2. Oh son, don't worry about your college GPA, everyone will get the same job offers (participation trophy).

 

3. Oh son, don't worry about what college major you choose, everyone get's paid the same (participation trophy).

 

4. Oh son, don't worry about the amount of dedication and hard work you'll have to put in at your job, everyone will get those nice position advancements and merit raises, you all deserve the same regardless of how much effort yo put into it. (participation trophy).

 

5. Oh son, don't worry about trying to work hard on your cowboy shooting accuracy, transitions, times, mechanics, gun maintenance or the quality of ammunition that you reload for your matches, everyone will get an award.....after all you showed up just like they did (participation trophy).

 

There are pluses and minus for category changes to be made in SASS but the one thing I can't stand is the attitude that everyone deserves a prize just for showing up. Those old cowboys that have better scores than the young up and comers worked hard to get those times down to where they were. As soon as those younger folks put in the time and effort to learn the finer points of the sport, i.e. paid their dues, they they will start beating those "old pharts" at the same game. Until then they need to do the same work to get the same outcome.

 

As it has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are some young folks out there now that can run with most everyone in SASS regardless of age and they have even won overall at EOT. I don't have any magic whiffle dust to throw over the piece of paper containing the age based categories to give clarity and agreement by everyone but there needs to be some common sense in the arrival of any proposed solution. The argument that young folks won't keep showing up to the shoots just because they aren't winning just doesn't hold water.

 

Just the view from my saddle,

 

Kajun

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

Are you a SASS member or a troll?

 

I shoot with Most Wanted and his son regularly, top tier shooters, and definitely NOT trolls...

 

 

MTC

[Curley Fryes]

It's really sad that there are controversies about categories and whatnot. I joined SASS because the old west is in my blood, and I feel most comfortable wearing period clothes and a rig. I could care less who I'm shooting against, what category I'm in, or if I win anything. When I'm at a match I'm back in period doing what I like best, but I guess that's not enough for some cowpokes. I must be a simple cowboy.

[Noz]

Do what you will but LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE!

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

Cowboy "Open Class", I don't think so. If a shooter is 17 to 34, wants to shoot one pistol at a time, with two hands, smokeless powder and not dress B-Western, they have no other choice, but to shoot Cowboy. Allowing a 55 year old to shoot Cowboy and bump a 17 year old kid from placing does not make it an open class. I can hear people moaning already, but not nearly as loud as if we were to let a 17 year old kid shoot 49er and bump someone out of placing in their class. The rules seem only in place to protect the older shooters, but it should work both ways. The rules view being older as a disadvantage, but many Wranglers, 49ers, and Seniors finish above many Cowboys and the Cowboys are the only ones who cannot switch to another class to place higher in their category. If you have age-based categories, they should be followed or they should be dropped. I have a son that is 18, and is only worried about how he finishes overall, not in his class, so this does not apply to him. It applies to the kid who is somewhat new to shooting and even though he may have came in mid pack he is happy to have gotten third in Cowboy.

 

I agree with you. If you shoot age based, you should have to shoot your proper category. Unfortunately, too many other people do not see it this way. It will never be fair as it should be but always giving the older shooter more flexibility.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

Are you a SASS member or a troll?

 

He is not a troll. He and his son have been shooting for years and both are damn good. They also help out at all the local clubs.

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

PS. I think he just figured out how to use a confuser!

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Most Wanted,

 

Welcome to the Wire. Controversial topics are the best. They cause us to think.

 

I certainly see your point and so do many others (see PaleWolf's post with the vote). I always shoot my age group (despite having to admit I'm THAT OLD. :rolleyes:/> ) I was pleasantly surprised that The Outlaws voted unanimously in favor of the change. Unfortunately, the final Summit vote wasn't close to the 2/3 majority required to change a rule.

 

IMO, the only way to get this passed is to present your case to the broadest audience and win them over. A Chronicle article would be the best medium for that.

 

Good luck and happy shooting to you and your son.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

If we leave it to Congress, all of the categories will be going away. We will only have two categories, Rock Chucking and Slingshot. Should they be age based?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS <Rant Mode On>

 

The increase in age-based categories, and the proposed addition of more at the upper end, was/is argued as being necessary to protect older shooters from youth and quick reflexes. By dropping to younger categories, shooters are negating the argument that led to additional age-based categories in the first place and fuels the desire for more at the upper end. It seems, by their own admission, that some folks want things both ways to enable them to place better in a category. That was not the original intent of the change.

 

<Rant Mode Off>

[Guest Texican Bounty Hunter]

Now shooting "Senior"and proud of it

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Dump the age based categorys. I never have been a fan of the age based categories since 49er. I'll accept Senior and above and of course Junior and below. Everything in between should be lumped together as it once was. If a shooter in that group has an infirmity, that's a different issue and perhaps a different category.

 

Fillmore

 

Hear! Hear!

[Lead Ringer]

I'll show you a 13 y/o that can kick anyone's butt in any category almost anytime he cares to try it. That idea failed for a couple of good reasons. One of which is that it didn't get enough votes! :lol:/>/>

 

The other is that the whole category foofaw is a mess and we all know it. Nothing is going to happen, but it's almost February and we haven't beat this dead horse in at least 9 months.

 

I'm predicting 3 pages this time. Anyone want the over/under?:ph34r:/>/>

 

;;

 

It seems like this discussion was just yesterday? I say just find a place to shoot and shoot!

Have fun.

Ringer

[Krazy Kajun]

If we leave it to Congress, all of the categories will be going away. We will only have two categories, Rock Chucking and Slingshot. Should they be age based?

No OKB...can't have rock chucking....didn't you see the thread about the newest AR....the assault rock. Those would surely be banned as well.