Category Controversy

[Captain Bill Burt]

This....this is what we need more of. In today's politically correct society everyone is a winner and gets a participation trophy.....what does that teach our young folks?

 

[Kajun

Thanks Kajun!

[Two Gun Tuco]

I think you should be commended for your concern about attracting new shooters to SASS, I just don't think rule changes aimed at making it easier for them to place is the right approach. IMHO, we reward our children to much for to little today. Everyone is a winner, which means no one is. The teams in our local soccer and basketball leagues all get the same trophies, regardless of their win loss record. I don't want to look at things from the viewpoint of a 17 year old in today's culture, I want to raise a 17 year old who shares my views that winning requires work and perseverance.

Being that I was just recently a 17 year old that grew up in "today's culture" I find it a little insulting that you would assume that all 17 year olds nowadays don't work hard and that you don't want to even consider looking at things from someone my ages perspective. And the issue wasn't even about all 17 year olds-but just 17 year old cowboy shooters in particular. These are the kinds of things that will make it so I'm never able to sign up as a Wrangler at a match because the sport will be long gone. If everyone in SASS viewed "today's" youth with that kind of closedmindedness the sport will never grow because "today's" youth won't want to be faced with that kind of disrespect before even being given a chance.

 

And as for people thinking that the goal of this thread was to give participation awards to young shooters, they are far off the topic. The issue at hand was that someone who earned the third place trophy for the age group of 17-34 is having it taken by someone who is afraid of the class that they belong in or doesn't care about what category they shoot, but just put cowboy not thinking of how it may affect others. If everyone would just shoot the category that they belong in there would be no issue. It's really not that much to ask. By signing up in a younger category just to collect an award it shows that it's the 38 year old that doesn't have a chance in Wrangler, so signed up for cowboy, is the one that wants the participation award not the 17 year old that just signed up in the category he has to shoot.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Being that I was just recently a 17 year old that grew up in "today's culture" I find it a little insulting that you would assume that all 17 year olds nowadays don't work hard and that you don't want to even consider looking at things from someone my ages perspective. And the issue wasn't even about all 17 year olds-but just 17 year old cowboy shooters in particular. These are the kinds of things that will make it so I'm never able to sign up as a Wrangler at a match because the sport will be long gone. If everyone in SASS viewed "today's" youth with that kind of closedmindedness the sport will never grow because "today's" youth won't want to be faced with that kind of disrespect before even being given a chance.

 

And as for people thinking that the goal of this thread was to give participation awards to young shooters, they are far off the topic. The issue at hand was that someone who earned the third place trophy for the age group of 17-34 is having it taken from someone who is afraid of the class that they belong in or doesn't care about what category they shoot, but just put cowboy not thinking of how it may affect others. If everyone would just shoot the category that they belong in there would be no issue. It's really not that much to ask. By signing up in a younger category just to collect an award it shows that it's the 38 year old that doesn't have a chance in Wrangler is the one that wants the participation award not the 17 year old that just signed up in the category he has to shoot.

 

I don't remember saying anything about all 17 year olds not working hard, in fact I don't remember saying anything about any 17 year olds working, hard or otherwise. The OP's post clearly implied that difficulty placing in the Wrangler category would discourage young shooters from participating because placing in that category was made more difficult by older shooters moving down. I was responding to that position. My comment had to do with a cultural attitude that is being presented to today's youth rather than something today's youth are responsible for.

 

As a high school teacher father of five and former 17 year old, I'm very familiar with the viewpoint of 17 year olds. I also have something you do not, the advantage of 49 years of experience and a 49 year old's perspective. Although I respect your right to have an opinion that differs from mine, and I also think you have the right to express and defend that opinion, in all humility I believe that age and experience give my opinion a little more weight. This position is supported by your failure to grasp the core aspects of my position and your reflexive response of seeing it as some type of an attack on today's youth rather than what it was intended to be which was a judgement of adults today who are overly protective of their children's egos to their detriment.

 

As far as signing up for the category someone 'belongs' in. Under the current rules a 49 year old (that's me) belongs in whichever age based category they prefer whether it be Cowboy, Wrangler or 49r. I personally prefer to shoot the oldest category for which I qualify, but that's just a personal preference. I have no issue with other older shooters choosing whichever category they wish.

 

One thing I do take issue with is the fact that many (but not all) of today's young people see themselves as the intellectual equals of their elders, which they clearly are not. But take heart, when I was a 17 year old I felt the same way, the older I got, the wiser my father became.

 

P.S. I don't 'give' respect, it's earned, or not.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

You just lost some of mine

[Captain Bill Burt]

OK.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

No OKB...can't have rock chucking....didn't you see the thread about the newest AR....the assault rock. Those would surely be banned as well. :)/>

 

Now no need to go and get insulting calling me OKB!

[Smokey Shayne]

Try signing up for Cowboy at one of the larger matches. I normally shoot Wranger, 42yo, but at the last CaC Regional, I signed up for Cowboy. Not because I didnt think I would be competetive in Wranger, but I felt Cowboy would be the tougher class of the 2. And thats the shooters I wanted to compete against. Needless to say, they whooped me pretty good...lol.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Being that I was just recently a 17 year old that grew up in "today's culture" I find it a little insulting that you would assume that all 17 year olds nowadays don't work hard and that you don't want to even consider looking at things from someone my ages perspective. And the issue wasn't even about all 17 year olds-but just 17 year old cowboy shooters in particular. These are the kinds of things that will make it so I'm never able to sign up as a Wrangler at a match because the sport will be long gone. If everyone in SASS viewed "today's" youth with that kind of closedmindedness the sport will never grow because "today's" youth won't want to be faced with that kind of disrespect before even being given a chance.

 

And as for people thinking that the goal of this thread was to give participation awards to young shooters, they are far off the topic. The issue at hand was that someone who earned the third place trophy for the age group of 17-34 is having it taken from someone who is afraid of the class that they belong in or doesn't care about what category they shoot, but just put cowboy not thinking of how it may affect others. If everyone would just shoot the category that they belong in there would be no issue. It's really not that much to ask. By signing up in a younger category just to collect an award it shows that it's the 38 year old that doesn't have a chance in Wrangler, so signed up for cowboy, is the one that wants the participation award not the 17 year old that just signed up in the category he has to shoot.

 

And so you counter by insulting and making assumptions about others?

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

And so you counter by insulting and making assumptions about others?

I didn't see any insults in his reply. I think he makes some valid statements.

[Appaloosa Amy, #63949, CT]

Hi guys-

 

Obviously this bothered you enough to finally get on the wire (Yes MW & Tuco have been shooting awhile and are well known in the east).

 

Here's my 3 cents.

 

When the categories first changed from Traditional to Wrangler & Cowboy, we (James Samuel Pike, Quaker Hill Bill, Smokey Sue, and myself) thought that the Cowboy class was really the new Open class so we all figured that was the category to be in. But at the Tri-State that year we all felt like schmucks at the awards when we realized we had a few young new shooters in attendance who's only option was cowboy (The Tri-State does not list categories on the Who's Coming List). We never did that again.

 

As you know I have a 17 year old (Snazzy McGee) of my own and the cowgirl category can be pretty rough at the big matches (Pious Player & Holy Terror to name a couple)and I think it would be a bit ridiculous if she had to also contend with shooters like Two Sons, Stormy Shooter, etc. if they decided to shoot down instead of in their own category.

 

Tuco and Snazzy can hold their own no matter who is in their category but their are other young shooters that don't have their skill yet and it is kinda sad when older shooters recognize that fact from category lists posted prior to the match and switch categories.

 

AA

[Four Bucks #36386 Life]

Well, for what my opine is worth...and I don't have a dog in this fight 'cause I usually shoot one BP category or another...folks like to win or place or be recognized among their peers. As has been mentioned, we voted on keeping shooters in their age bracket but couldn't get the needed votes.

 

I know there are folks who just shoot and participate for the love the game and pretending to be a cowboy for the weekend...there's LOTS of us...but I can say pretty confidently that if you did away with a bunch of categories and dropped it down to just a few smokeless and BP categories...within a year, participation would drop to levels that wouldn't support half of the matches in this country. People talk a good fight but secretly, most enjoy and look forward to standing in front of the crowd and being recognized...even if it's for 3rd place in the Left-handed, blue-eyed, over 50 but under 55, Spanish speaking, duelist, hammered double category.

 

I've won a few and lost a bunch but in the end, I say ignore 'em all, have fun with our pards and bang some steel. Now...if I was just left handed.

 

Four Bucks

[Captain Bill Burt]

Looking back at Most Wanted and Two Gun Tuco's SASS numbers clearly there's a relationship there since they're sequential. It's certainly understandable, and commendable, that a son would stand up for his father.

 

Regardless of a family relationship, if you don't agree with my position on the issue brought up by the OP then say so, don't try to twist what I said, erect a straw man, and then attack that. I never said anything about young people not working hard, nor did I indicate any disrespect for today's youth. I've spent the last 11 years of my life teaching disadvantaged youths and I believe your position is mistaken and the attitude you attribute to me offensive.

 

My position was, and is, very straightforward: the rules allow it, period. Changing the rules to make it easier for young people to place sends the wrong message. If you don't like the rules, try to change them, failing in that, cowboy up and play the game.

 

I also believe that as a 49 year old veteran, father of five and grandfather of two I'm not obligated to engage with a teenager as if they are on an equal footing with me. I treat my elders with a certain degree of deference, that's the way I was raised. I believe I'm entitled to the same from today's young generation.

[Krazy Kajun]

Now no need to go and get insulting calling me OKB!

Sorry about that Oklahomabound...didn't mean to insult your good name

[Griff]

Frankly, I think the OP and the young'uns that have spoke up have a valid point. While I don't have a problem with a "Senior" shooting in a category other than their chronological age, maybe they shouldn't be eligible fir awards in that category. As in, how many State matches determine their "State" Champion.

 

It would put the lie pretty fast to those that "say" they ain't doin' it just to collect the trophy, Now, I ain't sayin' that there aren't those amongst us who're 62 and THINK we're 31, but should we act like sophmores?

[Most Wanted]

Looking back at Most Wanted and Two Gun Tuco's SASS numbers clearly there's a relationship there since they're sequential. It's certainly understandable, and commendable, that a son would stand up for his father.

 

Regardless of a family relationship, if you don't agree with my position on the issue brought up by the OP then say so, don't try to twist what I said, erect a straw man, and then attack that. I never said anything about young people not working hard, nor did I indicate any disrespect for today's youth. I've spent the last 11 years of my life teaching disadvantaged youths and I believe your position is mistaken and the attitude you attribute to me offensive.

 

My position was, and is, very straightforward: the rules allow it, period. Changing the rules to make it easier for young people to place sends the wrong message. If you don't like the rules, try to change them, failing in that, cowboy up and play the game.

 

I also believe that as a 49 year old veteran, father of five and grandfather of two I'm not obligated to engage with a teenager as if they are on an equal footing with me. I treat my elders with a certain degree of deference, that's the way I was raised. I believe I'm entitled to the same from today's young generation.

Yes, he is my son and a good kid. He was raised to respect all people, young and old. I feel that all people are equal until they prove otherwise. It goes back to treat someone the way you wish to be treated. I can't imagine you tell a new class, wait for me to earn your respect. How do you treat people while your waiting for them to "earn" your respect. Whether you see it or not, all your replies point out that these teenagers aren't on "equal footing" with you. You have to see how that could offend a young man. Now his reply was not just aimed at you but this was his first shot at this and he did not know he could hit reply at the top of the page. Now before you rip me a new one, let me tell you I'm 51. Now by your earlier logic my opinion is more valid than yours. Sucks to be young sometimes.

[Conejo Kid #51342]

It is interesting to see that the wounds inflicted by the Wild Bunch when they closed the Traditional and Modern Categories STILL haven't healed. Traditional WAS the "Open Category".

 

At this point, screwing with it further just tears off the old scap and makes things worse.

 

I would like to see SASS expand the non aged based categories to include: 1. Military and 2. Cartridge Open Tops. -- that would make for some great fun and visuals. But then, my suggestions have always fell on deaf ears.

 

Conejo.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Yes, he is my son and a good kid. He was raised to respect all people, young and old. I feel that all people are equal until they prove otherwise. It goes back to treat someone the way you wish to be treated. I can't imagine you tell a new class, wait for me to earn your respect. How do you treat people while your waiting for them to "earn" your respect. Whether you see it or not, all your replies point out that these teenagers aren't on "equal footing" with you. You have to see how that could offend a young man. Now his reply was not just aimed at you but this was his first shot at this and he did not know he could hit reply at the top of the page. Now before you rip me a new one, let me tell you I'm 51. Now by your earlier logic my opinion is more valid than yours. Sucks to be young sometimes.

 

Don't know your son or you very well. But have seen and observed you both on and off the range and can say that TGT is very respectful and pleasant to interact with and he gets it from no stranger. Congrats on raising a nice young man.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Actually when they walk in the classroom on the board are the words 'Give Respect and you will get Respect. Your son's first post to me indicated that he was insulted by me, then went on to attribute a position to me that was wildly inaccurate. From my perspective that's disrespectful and more important, factually inaccurate. I said we, that's today's ADULTS need to treat THEM, today's children, differently.

 

Please review my posts and point out where I said 17 year olds don't work hard. I clearly stated my dissatisfaction with society making things too easy for today's youth, nothing about today's youth doing anything wrong.

 

In a couple of hours I'll walk into a classroom filled with 36 high school seniors, I'll have ample opportunity to see the 17 year old viewpoint, but I'll call them by their first name and they'll call me Mr. Burt no matter how fond I may be of them. I'll establish the class norms, and they'll abide by them. I've seen other teachers who do treat the youngsters as equals, they aren't effective educators and they ultimately fail. That doesn't bother me much, but their students often fail to, and that does bother me. BTW, all of my students pass the state mandated 'EOCT' tests thereby remaining eligible to graduate no other economics teacher in the building can say that. That's more important to me than whether they think I'm 'mean' or 'tough'.

 

I'm sure Two Gun Tuco is a fine young man as you and others have stated, that doesn't change the fact that his attack on me was based on a false premise.

[Most Wanted]

Actually when they walk in the classroom on the board are the words 'Give Respect and you will get Respect. Your son's first post to me indicated that he was insulted by me, then went on to attribute a position to me that was wildly inaccurate. From my perspective that's disrespectful and more important, factually inaccurate. I said we, that's today's ADULTS need to treat THEM, today's children, differently.

 

Please review my posts and point out where I said 17 year olds don't work hard. I clearly stated my dissatisfaction with society making things too easy for today's youth, nothing about today's youth doing anything wrong.

 

In a couple of hours I'll walk into a classroom filled with 36 high school seniors, I'll have ample opportunity to see the 17 year old viewpoint, but I'll call them by their first name and they'll call me Mr. Burt no matter how fond I may be of them. I'll establish the class norms, and they'll abide by them. I've seen other teachers who do treat the youngsters as equals, they aren't effective educators and they ultimately fail. That doesn't bother me much, but their students often fail to, and that does bother me. BTW, all of my students pass the state mandated 'EOCT' tests thereby remaining eligible to graduate no other economics teacher in the building can say that. That's more important to me than whether they think I'm 'mean' or 'tough'.

 

I'm sure Two Gun Tuco is a fine young man as you and others have stated, that doesn't change the fact that his attack on me was based on a false premise.

"I don't want to look at things from the viewpoint of a 17 year old in today's culture, I want to raise a 17 year old who shares my views that winning requires work and perseverance."

That sentence implies that all 17 year olds in today's culture were not raised the way you are going to raise yours; that all 17 year olds weren't raised that winning requires WORK and perseverance. This implies that my 17 year old doesn't work for what he wants. I don't think he attacked you, I think his reponse was dead on. Again it wasn't about making it easier, it was about making it fair.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Sorry Most Wanted, but I think that's an extreme interpretation of what I said. ALL 17 years olds aren't raised the way I raise my children, some are and some aren't. ALL 17 year olds aren't raised to value work and perseverance, some are and some aren't. Those statements are axiomatic. Clearly ALL children are not raised the same way. Just as clearly our culture has moved in the direction of creating a sense of entitlement in children. That doesn't mean EVERY parent does that nor that EVERY child feels entitled, but it does indicate a general trend.

 

If you and your son choose to interpret my statement as a personal condemnation of the two of you that's certainly your perogative, but I believe I've made it pretty clear that I did not intend it as such and I don't really see your interpretation as being very reasonable.

 

This has gotten a little out of hand, I meant no offense to you or your son, if you insist on taking offense and misintepreting my comment I don't see much point in continuing our discussion.

[Cowboy Junky]

So now we have to worry about 50 year olds beating up on the young folks too? That’s why we have aged based categories?

 

I always thought it was for the benefit of the OLDER FOLKS.........lol. Who knew it was to protect the young ones....from us old fellas.

If you hold big matches you see that the aged bases AND separate categories is a problem IMO. If you have aged based categories then everyone wants them to pertain to their specialty category as well. So, we know have Gunfighter and Senior Gunfighter which is leading to Duelist and Senior Duelist…..so why not B-Western and Senior B-Western………heck why not Junior B-Western, Cowboy B-Western, Wrangler B-Western, 49’er B-Western, Senior B-Western, Silver Senior B-Western, Cattle Baron B-Western and finally Gran Parton B-Western…….

 

Then I guess we should do that for Frontiersman, Classic Cowboy, Gunfighter, Frontier Cartridge and Duelist……….(and add Double Duelist of course) so why for some if not for all?

 

Seriously this could get way out of hand……….

[Patagonia Pete]

The Cowboy/Cowgirl categories were never age based categories … never.

 

That was the name/s they decided to use when they combined the Traditional and Modern categories … (which were also … never … age based categories … they were the “OPEN” categories for fixed/adjustable sights).

 

At the time they did that (has not been all that long)… they added the Wrangler age based category … (for those who “DIDN’T” have a movement option at the time either .. and who might have been feeling mistreated ... perhaps tampering with something that was working to satisfy a few ... but ... it survived the change process ...).

 

- If you would like to have an aged based category underneath Wrangler … then do it …

 

- If you want to use the Cowboy/Cowgirl name for that category … then do it …

 

- Then … RENAME … the current open category “TRADITIONAL” or something like that instead of “COWBOY/COWGIRL”.

 

- Constantly implying that over 35 shooters are being cruel to anyone because they continue/choose to shoot in the designated “OPEN” category is BS …

 

Should we play by the rules or just how we happen to think it should be done on any particular day?? It is easy to come up with fuzzy (good sounding) logic to justify anything (look at gun control arguments).

 

… AND … as far as category population … just look at any Winter Range register (go to their web site and look) and you will find at least twice as many shooters in the “Senior” and up categories compared to those shooting “Cowboy” (one I checked had 30 Cowboy shooters and 60+ in Senior … it got worse in older age range categories … much worse).

 

Perhaps they should give out awards as a percentage of category participants … pretty nice only having 30 people splitting up 10 … instead of having … 60-90 in your category splitting up 10 awards … if all you want is an award.

 

IMHO as always ...

Pete

[Most Wanted]

Sorry Most Wanted, but I think that's an extreme interpretation of what I said. ALL 17 years olds aren't raised the way I raise my children, some are and some aren't. ALL 17 year olds aren't raised to value work and perseverance, some are and some aren't. Those statements are axiomatic. Clearly ALL children are not raised the same way. Just as clearly our culture has moved in the direction of creating a sense of entitlement in children. That doesn't mean EVERY parent does that nor that EVERY child feels entitled, but it does indicate a general trend.

 

If you and your son choose to interpret my statement as a personal condemnation of the two of you that's certainly your perogative, but I believe I've made it pretty clear that I did not intend it as such and I don't really see your interpretation as being very reasonable.

 

This has gotten a little out of hand, I meant no offense to you or your son, if you insist on taking offense and misintepreting my comment I don't see much point in continuing our discussion.

No harm, no foul

[Blackwater 53393]

So now we have to worry about 50 year olds beating up on the young folks too? That’s why we have aged based categories?

 

I always thought it was for the benefit of the OLDER FOLKS.........lol. Who knew it was to protect the young ones....from us old fellas.

If you hold big matches you see that the aged bases AND separate categories is a problem IMO. If you have aged based categories then everyone wants them to pertain to their specialty category as well. So, we know have Gunfighter and Senior Gunfighter which is leading to Duelist and Senior Duelist…..so why not B-Western and Senior B-Western………heck why not Junior B-Western, Cowboy B-Western, Wrangler B-Western, 49’er B-Western, Senior B-Western, Silver Senior B-Western, Cattle Baron B-Western and finally Gran Parton B-Western…….

 

Then I guess we should do that for Frontiersman, Classic Cowboy, Gunfighter, Frontier Cartridge and Duelist……….(and add Double Duelist of course) so why for some if not for all?

 

Seriously this could get way out of hand……….

 

Hey Junky!!

You forgot Outlaw and Hillbilly and Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter.........

[Captain Bill Burt]

No harm, no foul

I'm glad to hear that. Thanks. Although we have a difference of opinion about making things 'fair' I never meant to imply anything negative about you or your son. I was simply making an affirmative statement about what I do, or at least try to do. We all love our children and want to provide them with all the things they need that perhaps we didn't have. I think that's understandable, but perhaps get's taken to far at times. An interesting analogy, my grandfather used to do a little hydroponic gardening. When he would first start the plants he used a fan on them, some had their stalks broken as a result. When I questioned him he told me that if he didn't use the fan the stalks would be weak and the weight of the mature plants would break them.

 

If I may, without any personal rancor, discuss your original premises of making things fair and the equality of young to old(er). If younger people are entitled to be treated as equals with equally valid opinions, shouldn't they be willing to compete as equals?

 

What is fair? How is it any less fair for a 17 year old with two years of shooting experience to compete with a thirty eight year old with ten, than it is for a 49 year old with two years experience competing against a sixty year old with fifteen? if you're going to protect the former why not the latter?

 

Two weeks ago I got beat in 49r by 20 seconds by a sixty something year old, is that fair? I say yes, he earned his skill, it's up to me to catch up, if I can.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Sorry about that Oklahomabound...didn't mean to insult your good name :)/>

 

I'm glad you got my back... can you find a place to stick that knife amongst all of the others?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

x

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Pete,

 

I'm sorry to inform you that you are incorrect in your implication that Cowboy is not an age-based category.

 

Following is the Agenda Item from 2008 when the category change was voted on.

"Should we combine the Traditional and Modern categories and then split this combination into two age-based categories, with the age breaks being at 17 and up / 36 and up? This would give us age-based categories for all ages. All age based categories would allow the use of all SASS legal firearms, propellants and shooting styles except Gunfighter."

 

After writing this, I reviewed the Shooters Handbook and found that what the TGs voted on is not exactly what came out in the Shooters Handbook, which is, "Cowboy Category shooters are competitors of any age range." So, you are correct.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS Based on what is "written" in the rules, it appears that the SASS PTB (RO Committee) decided to make the category open to youngsters. It and all other age-based categories were always open to the older ages.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PPS I wasn't done with my first post and was going to edit it after reading the SHB. Somehow it posted and posted twice at that before I finishe. Oh Wire Gods, why are you doing these things to me.

[Most Wanted]

I'm glad to hear that. Thanks. Although we have a difference of opinion about making things 'fair' I never meant to imply anything negative about you or your son. I was simply making an affirmative statement about what I do, or at least try to do. We all love our children and want to provide them with all the things they need that perhaps we didn't have. I think that's understandable, but perhaps get's taken to far at times. An interesting analogy, my grandfather used to do a little hydroponic gardening. When he would first start the plants he used a fan on them, some had their stalks broken as a result. When I questioned him he told me that if he didn't use the fan the stalks would be weak and the weight of the mature plants would break them.

 

If I may, without any personal rancor, discuss your original premises of making things fair and the equality of young to old(er). If younger people are entitled to be treated as equals with equally valid opinions, shouldn't they be willing to compete as equals?

 

What is fair? How is it any less fair for a 17 year old with two years of shooting experience to compete with a thirty eight year old with ten, than it is for a 49 year old with two years experience competing against a sixty year old with fifteen? if you're going to protect the former why not the latter?

 

Two weeks ago I got beat in 49r by 20 seconds by a sixty something year old, is that fair? I say yes, he earned his skill, it's up to me to catch up, if I can.

If 20 men show up to shoot 49r and one man drops to cowboy because only 5 men showed up for that category, and his intent was to have a better chance to win an award, that would be fine and fair if the roles were reveresd and a cowboy could jump up to 49r if the odds of winning increased. As I said before they can drop the age categorys and that would be more even than how its played now. The older you are the more categorys you have to choose from. I think there are only a few that drop down for awards but it does happen. Some drop down to compete against friends in a category that they think is more challenging. If my son could jump up to 49r to kick my butt (and he would kick my butt) that would be fair play. My son and I compare ourselves by overall placing. That option is availible to everyone. The OP was about the biased rule, not the people who use it.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

Well, here we go again.

 

I shot a local match two weeks ago shortly after my 65th birthday. There was one other "silver senior" there who has some physical problems and is not a fast shooter. I chose to enter 49'er because that was the largest category that day and several good 49'er shooters were there. If there was a rule requiring me to stay in my category and beat up on a non-competitive shooter, I'd probably quit. This was voted on and it lost by a landslide.

 

If you see people shooting lower categories to "cherry-pick" (I personally have seen very little of that) let them know what you think of the practice. I'd probably boo and hiss when their name is called. I think peer pressure is the best remedy for that type of behavior, but please, no new rules to keep the rest of us from seeking out stronger competition.

 

BTW, I shot way over my head and won 49'er!

[Silver Shadow]

...

As a high school teacher...

 

 

P.S. I don't 'give' respect, it's earned, or not.

 

Captain Bill Burt, Sir, you deserve a medal. Now I mean no disrespect to 17 year olds in general, however some of the experience I've had with particular young people in that age base have truly tried my self control. If you can spend all day with a large group of them, more less trying to teach some of them, you truly are a hero. I'm sure that you are experienced enough to be a little sensitive to what may have been perceived as an attack. I'm also sure form watching your posts these last couple years that you weren't saying to dis-respect someone until they earn your respect. I'm only a 48 year old veteran(little jab cause that's me, sorry) but I sure would like to ride the river with you someday.

 

That said: I know my high badge number and low post count(sorry just can't get into the "+1", or "me too" posts)give me little credibility among the "Wire Hierarchy". I do, however, think that Most Wanted is making a valid point. Pitting a 17 year old, who may have up to 5 or so years experience, against a "49er" with more than thirty years experience doesn't seem appropriate some how. I know some of the "Legacy's" excelling in our sport are the exception but in general pitting the old(to a certain point) bull against the young bull is a sure bet on most boards. I think, if your going to have age based categories for "whatever" reason, then they ought to be just that.

 

I've never won anything in this sport, but, truth is, I do like the competition. I usually gravitate to the most competitive categories, but, I do hope to "earn" a prize someday.

 

Truly though, CBB, good teachers are my heroes.

 

For what it's worth.

Silver Shadow

[Captain Bill Burt]

If 20 men show up to shoot 49r and one man drops to cowboy because only 5 men showed up for that category, and his intent was to have a better chance to win an award, that would be fine and fair if the roles were reveresd and a cowboy could jump up to 49r if the odds of winning increased. As I said before they can drop the age categorys and that would be more even than how its played now. The older you are the more categorys you have to choose from. I think there are only a few that drop down for awards but it does happen. Some drop down to compete against friends in a category that they think is more challenging. If my son could jump up to 49r to kick my butt (and he would kick my butt) that would be fair play. My son and I compare ourselves by overall placing. That option is availible to everyone. The OP was about the biased rule, not the people who use it.

Then what would be the point of age categories? They would exist simply to increase the number of awards handed out. It's my understanding, limited admittedly, that their original purpose was to account for diminishing ability based on age. Of course they're arbitrary, and hence flawed. In retrospect the division between Cowboy and Wrangler may not be needed, perhaps not 49r either. I feel pretty good for 49, I'm fairly confident that when I get beat by a youngster, it's skill, not age related. Perhaps Junior should be extended up a little and Buckeroo subdivided. I know my 7 year old struggles to compete against a 13 year old. That doesn't bother me, I like the fact that he comes home more determined than ever to practice and get better. I believe the gap there is more significant than between 20 and 50. Having said that, I don't agree that the solution is to restrict the older pards from moving around because a few abuse that right. The system is imperfect, your solution is imperfect, the decision then hinges on what solution is best for the largest number of people. By a significant margin the majority voted for what we have.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Captain Bill Burt, Sir, you deserve a medal. Now I mean no disrespect to 17 year olds in general, however some of the experience I've had with particular young people in that age base have truly tried my self control. If you can spend all day with a large group of them, more less trying to teach some of them, you truly are a hero. I'm sure that you are experienced enough to be a little sensitive to what may have been perceived as an attack. I'm also sure form watching your posts these last couple years that you weren't saying to dis-respect someone until they earn your respect. I'm only a 48 year old veteran(little jab cause that's me, sorry) but I sure would like to ride the river with you someday.

 

That said: I know my high badge number and low post count(sorry just can't get into the "+1", or "me too" posts)give me little credibility among the "Wire Hierarchy". I do, however, think that Most Wanted is making a valid point. Pitting a 17 year old, who may have up to 5 or so years experience, against a "49er" with more than thirty years experience doesn't seem appropriate some how. I know some of the "Legacy's" excelling in our sport are the exception but in general pitting the old(to a certain point) bull against the young bull is a sure bet on most boards. I think, if your going to have age based categories for "whatever" reason, then they ought to be just that.

 

I've never won anything in this sport, but, truth is, I do like the competition. I usually gravitate to the most competitive categories, but, I do hope to "earn" a prize someday.

 

Truly though, CBB, good teachers are my heroes.

 

For what it's worth.

Silver Shadow

Thank you SS! I love 'my' kids, but they'll be the first to tell you it's a tough love. I hold them to a high standard and verbally kick their little a$$es when they fall short. I don't tolerate disrespect or laziness, and I try to never let a success go unnoticed. Every year, when colleges let out, they come back to me to share their victories and their defeats and it's a great feeling.

 

I have kids at GA Tech, UGA, UVA, GA Southern, Ole Miss, TN, Vanderbilt, Clemson, GA State, the US Army, US Navy, USMC, Atlanta PD, and on and on. A few are in prison, some I see hanging out on the corner, a couple are dead. I can honestly say I did the best I could for every one of them, so yeah, I do get a little touchy on the subject of kids and how I treat them.

 

Thanks for your kind words!

 

BTW, I'm home now, my principal sent me here. We're waiting for word on whether my middle son Michael AKA Iron Cowboy has meningitis or not. He woke up this morning after having a fever for a couple of days and couldn't walk. My better half is with him at Scottish Rite, hopefully I'll get the good word in an hour or so.