Sweeps getting to difficult

[Blastmaster]

Another post discusses the pros-cons, fun factor of target size and distance. Close and big are good.

 

This post is about target sequence.

 

I have attended some matches where there has been a single stage shooting order other than Nevada Sweep, Two seperate Sweeps, Double/triple tap sweeps, Rattler John Sweep, Progressive Sweep, and so forth.

 

For example, a couple of new sweeps that produced numerous P's and grumbles,,,,P1,p2,p3,p4,p3,p3,p3,p2,p2,p1 ......or.... p1,p3,p2,p3,p1, repeat. Both pistol and rifle were shot the same for each sweep example.

 

Question,,,Does the majority of shooters get great heart burn if they encounter just one new or different sweep in an entire 12stage match?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Blastmaster

[Ranger Dunn]

I don't, but then again I am too new to know any better, lol.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

If rifle and pistol are the same, no big deal. Did you get it right? Most of us are able to deal with the occasional "P" so we don't spend our entire lives with Nevada sweeps.

 

CR

[Pit Bull Tex]

Just give me my P and let me shoot.I will try and shoot it right,but most of the time I won't.

[Mustang Gregg]

 

I write our stages quite a bit. I like to change them up some. But not the terribly difficult ones that make no sense. In fact skipping targets in a row is not really a sweep.

But we always have the rifle and revolver sequence the SAME ORDER on each stage.

If the rifle is to be shot in a Nevada Sweep, so shall the revolver.

If the rifle is to be shot in a L to R sweep, so shall the revolver.

 

Mustang Gregg

Stage Writer

[B. T. Blade, SASS #35685Life]

Lucky and I make it a habit of going to a match and shooting every stage that's put in front of us without grumbling. HOWEVER.......our game should be fun and "challenging" - but not to the point where trying to figure out a target sequence makes your head hurt. While some new sweeps may be o.k. - a stage that generates too many "P's" should be brought to the attention of the match director. It should be quite obvious that there's a problem. We're on the range to shoot and have fun doing it - not auditioning for Jeopardy. My .02 cents.

[Ktown Kid]

agree 100% on same pistol/rifel sequinces..

 

its okay to have an "ocasional" odd ball sequince, but to much (say more than one per match) is just to much brain work (IE not fun)...we have a lot on new shooters at our monthly matches and we write our stages so they can leave with a smile (not a P)..

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

That "BRAT" sweep at Senior Games got me. I shot p1,p3,p2,p3,p1 left pistol; p1,p3,p2,p3,p1 right pistol; p1,p3,p2,p3,p1 rifle; p1,p3,p2,p3,p2 rifle.

 

Then ran to the shotgun and didn't bobble for 5 knockdowns. YEEE HAAAWWWWW.... turned to see all 3 spotters with a "P". I didn't even know I did it when I did it.

 

ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!

 

Otherwise, I loved the change. (Kind of like, "except for that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?) Without these kind of challenges all shoots will end up like EOT this year: sweep twice no double taps; then sweep twice double taps ok.....

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Many sweeps seem complicated when viewing the target order on paper, but not when actually shooting them.

When running a posse, I read the sweep & if anyone is confused, try to break it down into first pistol, holster, second pistol.

 

For example, the sweep Blastmaster mentioned, P1,p2,p3,p4,p3,p3,p3,p2,p2,p1, breaks down to 1-2-3-4-3 holster, second pistol 3-3-2-2-1 (which is just 2-2-1 starting on target #3).

 

And I'll coach you through the stage if you want.

 

There's usually only one "difficult" sequence in a match & if the pistol & rifle are shot the same, it makes it easier.

--Dawg

[Blastmaster]

That "BRAT" sweep at Senior Games got me. I shot p1,p3,p2,p3,p1 left pistol; p1,p3,p2,p3,p1 right pistol; p1,p3,p2,p3,p1 rifle; p1,p3,p2,p3,p2 rifle.

 

Then ran to the shotgun and didn't bobble for 5 knockdowns. YEEE HAAAWWWWW.... turned to see all 3 spotters with a "P". I didn't even know I did it when I did it.

 

ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!

 

Otherwise, I loved the change. (Kind of like, "except for that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?) Without these kind of challenges all shoots will end up like EOT this year: sweep twice no double taps; then sweep twice double taps ok.....

 

 

Brat sweep will not be seen again at major match. That one accounted for nearly 30% and perhaps 40% of the P's for the match. I shot it clean cause I had slept at the Holiday Inn Express some time during the month....plus the tin foil under the cowboy hat kept me focused.

 

Amazing BK, that you still remember how you shot it and where the train left the tracks.

 

Encouraging comments so far... Kept them coming.

 

Blastmaster

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

That's 'cuz Aspen Filly was laughing her ass off at me and then went and did the exact same thing!

[Painted Filly]

Blastmaster,

 

I don't mind new sweeps as long as they do not twist your brain. We have a saying if you have to think about a sweep for more than a minute it is too hard. It does help when the rifle and the pistol are the same.

 

Prairie Dog, I am with you break down the pistols and sometimes that makes it make sense.

 

But I also agree if there are too many new sweeps then it does take the fun out of it some. Too much thinking and stress takes away the fun.

 

Painted Filly

[DocWard]

I don't, but then again I am too new to know any better, lol.

 

+1

[Boon Doggle]

Target placement can have a great affect on how easy a sequence can be shot. What sounds difficult can be quite simple when you see it. A good diagram on the stage instructions is a must.

 

Of course, there are always some folks that have to start arguing the best way to shoot the scenario before the posse leader has completely read it through. It is a fact that people can hear better with their mouths closed.

[Blastmaster]

Many sweeps seem complicated when viewing the target order on paper, but not when actually shooting them.

When running a posse, I read the sweep & if anyone is confused, try to break it down into first pistol, holster, second pistol.

 

For example, the sweep Blastmaster mentioned, P1,p2,p3,p4,p3,p3,p3,p2,p2,p1, breaks down to 1-2-3-4-3 holster, second pistol 3-3-2-2-1 (which is just 2-2-1 starting on target #3).

 

And I'll coach you through the stage if you want.

 

There's usually only one "difficult" sequence in a match & if the pistol & rifle are shot the same, it makes it easier.

--Dawg

 

 

Good attitude and approach. Break the big sequence down to two engagements you are familiar with.

 

Sometimes it is easier to understand and shoot the different sequence using the rifle rather than the pistols and other times, it makes more since with the pistols, with a slight pause during pistol transition than the rifle.

 

I agree, just one (if that) difficult sequence per match.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Target placement and target color can help shooters with a unique, difficult or new sequence. If the match director does not do this, and introduces an odd ball sweep, he is just trying to add Ps and running off customers. I think Winter Range does the best job of any shoot I have attended by helping the shooter with target colors to shoot cleanly. A match director should be reviewing how many penalties (misses and Ps) shooters are getting on his stages and adjust accordingly. Stages should be written so that most of the shooters can shoot them cleanly.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I don't care if you think a sequence is easy or makes sense. If more than 5% of your shooters get a P, you did something wrong.

[Sour Kraut]

I certainly don't mind the occasional oddball sweep as long as I can wrap my head around exatly what I need to do. But I do agree that having the rifle and pistol sequences being the same are a good idea, especially for the oddball sweeps. I know I have some cowboy friends out there that think having rifle and pistol sequences being the same is too boring and doesn't challenge shooters enough. These are the same friends that think big and close targets should be outlawed, again because it's too boring. If I'm out there shooting and amongst some of the greatest people on earth, I'm having fun, why complicate it too much. I'm not in this sport to be "challenged" on every stage I shoot, I just want to have fun. There's nothing that says simple and easy can't be fun.

[Shooting Bull]

I enjoy new and challenging scenarios. I'm also rather tired of rifle and pistol sequences HAVING to be the same.

 

Having said that, since I'm responsible for most of the stages at our club, I don't subject other shooters to my likes and dislikes........................................well, maybe occasionally.

 

Captain George Baylor once said that shooting sequences shouldn't be a memory contest. His reasoning is that when you're faced with five bad guys, you don't shoot them in a pre-determind order. While I agree with that, I'll also use his logic against him. When faced with five bad guys, you eliminate the greatest threat first and then the next greatest threat and so on and so on until they're all gone. But they're not always lined up in perfect order, at the same height, evenly spaced and the exact same distance away from you. This kind of gets back to my opinion on the other thread, variety. No, don't make it so you need a PhD in quantum physics to figure out the sequence but, Nevada sweeps really are getting old.

[Al OVERA, SASS#26238 Life]

Another post discusses the pros-cons, fun factor of target size and distance. Close and big are good.

 

This post is about target sequence.

 

I have attended some matches where there has been a single stage shooting order other than Nevada Sweep, Two seperate Sweeps, Double/triple tap sweeps, Rattler John Sweep, Progressive Sweep, and so forth.

 

For example, a couple of new sweeps that produced numerous P's and grumbles,,,,P1,p2,p3,p4,p3,p3,p3,p2,p2,p1 ......or.... p1,p3,p2,p3,p1, repeat. Both pistol and rifle were shot the same for each sweep example.

 

Question,,,Does the majority of shooters get great heart burn if they encounter just one new or different sweep in an entire 12stage match?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Blastmaster

I shoot AND write stages. IMHO, the biggest point of confusion is the writer using the "P1 P2 P3, R1 R2 R3" type of sequence call out. I know that's how they do it at Founders ranch, but it is still confusing. I write "Rifle: 1-1-2-2-3-3-4-4-5-5, Pistol : 1-1-2-2-3 3-4-4-5-5." Most folks find this very clear without all the P and R crapola in between. And as far as the far out, oddball sweeps, sweep'em UNDER the rug. This is MY opinion, its' free. Take it for what it cost.

Al

[El Muerto Negro]

Sometime the order seems hard until you run it.

We had a few at a local match that made you go I don't think so. Then at the end of the match there were no p's on that stage. Truth everyone liked the new order.

Just have fun most times it all works out and if it don't ,they most likely won't do that order again. If you don't try new things you won't know what fun your missing out on.

 

 

El Muerto Negro

[Grizzly Dave]

I like different sweeps as long as they have some kind of logic or sequence to them. But make them too involved, it makes it hard not only for the shooters but also the spotters.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Blastmaster,

 

In my area, they are not usually difficult. However, last month three stages had unusual sweeps that were difficult for all but Gunfighters. How's that for a turnaround?

 

Luckily they were the same for pistol and rifle, which always helps. Still I got two Ps... I've really been a "ding dong" lately. Sigh!

 

I don't care for it when each pistol has a different scenario either. Rifle and pistol can be different if one is simple.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[twelve mile REB]

You get to the range early, set up the targets put the carpet on the unloading and loading tables find the timers and the counter sticks. I'll shoot the said targets and keep my mouth shut unless asked. I come to a shooting match not a discussion group. New match directors need to learn without being ridiculed, old ones need some help(strong back weak mind sort of thing). The brat sweep got me too but it was not the sweep, I knew what to do I just didn't do it, shoot them all let God sort them out sort of thing. If you think a sweep or a match is boring try this, shoot it faster. You will be surprised how much more exciting a Nevada sweep is if you increase your speed by 5 or 10% or more. The problem arises when a contestant doesn't match his skill, think of that as speed, to the difficulty of the problem. You continue to set them up I'll continue to shoot at them. This is just the opinion of a poor old broken down man blind in one eye and cann't see out of the other your opinion may vary significantly.

12

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

The market will work it out. If the shooters are consistently unhappy whth the match, they will go somewhere else. After the club suffers "near death" a new group will take over, build it up again and go forward.

 

Drifter

[Jack Houston # 35508]

There's only one sweep that always get's me!

 

1, 12, 123, 1234 everytime I double tap #1 to start I tend to keep double tapping

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Many sweeps seem complicated when viewing the target order on paper, but not when actually shooting them.

When running a posse, I read the sweep & if anyone is confused, try to break it down into first pistol, holster, second pistol.

 

For example, the sweep Blastmaster mentioned, P1,p2,p3,p4,p3,p3,p3,p2,p2,p1, breaks down to 1-2-3-4-3 holster, second pistol 3-3-2-2-1 (which is just 2-2-1 starting on target #3).

 

And I'll coach you through the stage if you want.

 

There's usually only one "difficult" sequence in a match & if the pistol & rifle are shot the same, it makes it easier.

--Dawg

I have done the same thing, and passed it on. If it looks difficult, break it down to 2 pistol. It then becomes easier, and had many shooters say it makes it easier to shoot.

As to difficult sweeps, I seen a stage were rifle, pistols, and shotgun, had each their own, yes difficult sweep. Very few of the shooters made it through the stage without a "P".

Not to change the subject, but after a match, what is acceptable in the number of "P"s issued, on a stage or match, that will say, stage or match was not good, and a "P" trap? MT

[Pitmaster, SASS #78461]

One of the biggest problems I have learning a new sweep is when there are 3 people explaining it at the same time. Also when people use target numbers and shots. It would be easier if it was target A gets 1 shot, B gets 2 shots, etc.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Hey Blastmaster, how ya doing?

 

I thought the sweeps at the Senior (Geezer ) Games were fine. They were creative and some I had not seen a lot yet all still allowed you to go to the limits of ones ability. Personally I think the Nevada is overused and could be sent to the closet for a whole match now and again. I think there are plenty of "different" sweeps that don't require PhD yet are very challenging. If you like I can send you my version of the "Named Sweeps" lists. I broke them down into 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 target groups. Condensing them further (some have more than one name) there are at least 65 sweeps on my list.

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

 

BTW I got the "Brat" sweep correct and I slept at the Days Inn, not the Holiday. So it must have been pretty easy right?

BTW agains - I agree with 12. you keep setting em, I'll keep shooting em

[Grouchy Greg, SASS#71981]

Lucky and I make it a habit of going to a match and shooting every stage that's put in front of us without grumbling. HOWEVER.......our game should be fun and "challenging" - but not to the point where trying to figure out a target sequence makes your head hurt. While some new sweeps may be o.k. - a stage that generates too many "P's" should be brought to the attention of the match director. It should be quite obvious that there's a problem. We're on the range to shoot and have fun doing it - not auditioning for Jeopardy. My .02 cents.

==========================================================

One of our stage writers says he likes "to make people think" when he's writing his P-trap stages. I told him that too much thinking slows folks down, and if I wanted to think, I'd just stay home and do cross-word puzzles.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

==========================================================

One of our stage writers says he likes "to make people think" when he's writing his P-trap stages. I told him that too much thinking slows folks down, and if I wanted to think, I'd just stay home and do cross-word puzzles.

...or Sudoku!

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

These kind of monkey shines are what have taken the place of more difficult shooting problems in many cases. The targets themselves are easy to hit, its the pointless mind games that are tough. I would much rather be be doing more challenging shooting (smaller targets, moving targets, movement to engage targets etc.) than this kind of stuff. If I wanted to do puzzles I would stay at home. One of the most entertaining matches I ever went to had no instructions as how to shoot or where to shoot from (except to say where the firing line was). The targets were designated pistol, rifle and shotgun but how you shot them was up to you. They were laid out so that there were obstructions etc. and you had to figure out the best way to do it. It was lots of fun.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Doc,

 

BTDT a time or two. What a hoot! It's always fun to have one stage like that at a match.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Blastmaster]

Hey Blastmaster, how ya doing?

 

I thought the sweeps at the Senior (Geezer ) Games were fine. They were creative and some I had not seen a lot yet all still allowed you to go to the limits of ones ability. Personally I think the Nevada is overused and could be sent to the closet for a whole match now and again. I think there are plenty of "different" sweeps that don't require PhD yet are very challenging. If you like I can send you my version of the "Named Sweeps" lists. I broke them down into 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 target groups. Condensing them further (some have more than one name) there are at least 65 sweeps on my list.

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

 

BTW I got the "Brat" sweep correct and I slept at the Days Inn, not the Holiday. So it must have been pretty easy right?

BTW agains - I agree with 12. you keep setting em, I'll keep shooting em

 

Thanks Gateway,

 

I have seen and have a lot of those sweeps that people have compiled. I would say most of them are just different that the normal Nevada sweep and double taps and such. Those 65+ sweeps are not necessarily difficult but different and for a lot of shooters, different equates to difficult. FWIW, just changing the starting target from far left to far right throws some people for a loop, even if it is an old time favorite, like the Nevada.

 

Good discussion we have going on here.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I thought this was a shooting sport not a memory test.

The targetting order should be easy to memorize.

My favorites are Nevada, California, Lawrence Welk, double tap or triple tap.

Some of the others are more complex than needed.

While shooters choice may seem fun it really creates an opportunity for all shooters to shoot a different stage.

And it can create some unintended consequences.

 

If the purpose of complex shooting sequences is to slow down faster shooters, it doesn't work that way.

It normally hurts the middle to bottom shooters.

The top shooters are fast and are always going to be fast as they PRACTICE.