Sweeps getting to difficult

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

The sweeps are not any harder... its just my brain got older.

[Blastmaster]

I thought this was a shooting sport not a memory test.

The targetting order should be easy to memorize.

My favorites are Nevada, California, Lawrence Welk, double tap or triple tap.

Some of the others are more complex than needed.

While shooters choice may seem fun it really creates an opportunity for all shooters to shoot a different stage.

And it can create some unintended consequences.

 

If the purpose of complex shooting sequences is to slow down faster shooters, it doesn't work that way.

It normally hurts the middle to bottom shooters.

The top shooters are fast and are always going to be fast as they PRACTICE.

 

 

I have never heard of a California sweep, but I am game to give it a try. What is it?

 

I know some people that think the Lawrence Welk sweep is a brain teaser and a P trap.

 

What may be a cake walk to some is a P trap for others. Each person has to decide what is difficult and what isn't for them. Only the percentile of P's on any particular stage is any form of indicator of what is difficult for the group of shooters. Ya don't know that percentile till after the match.

 

Blastmaster

 

Edit,,,, some times a MD throws in a different sweep just because he has already used the Nevada, double tap, triple tap, sweep-sweep and the usuals up and doesn't want to repeat the same sweep again and again and again at the same match. Just saying..

[Grizzly Dave]

One thing I have seen clubs to on a sweep that might be confusing for some folks with the pistols, is to paint the starting target for the second pistol a different color.

[Henry McKenna #700L]

In the Old West and in the movies, the sweeps went something like "SHOOT the other guys before they shoot you!!"

 

I'm against any and all CAS sweeps. I will play the game the way the match director wants me to play because he put the time and effort in to get the match going. I respect that.

That said, sweeps take me temporarily OUT of the old west and into THE GAME. To me they reduce the fun factor every time.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Blastmaster, around these parts a California sweep is all shots on the solitary target.

Sometimes it is called a California dump.

 

 

However when I went to one of the lists of sweeps, I found that it was defined by

 

California Sweep: From Old Scout (SASS# 323, CA). “Every other shot must be on the first target.

The remaining shots will form a sweep.” His example suggested eight shots on five targets,

1-2-1-3-1-4-1-5. See also Hermit Joe Sweep.

 

I guess that is a regional difference.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I enjoy a variety of target sequences, but stuff where you have several targets and you have to jump back and forth among them nearly always cause trouble and are not worth. If there is some logical sequence, it is fine.

 

So if I understand the "brat" sweep properly, I would not recommend it. It reminds me of a few sweeps I've shot where after I was done, I had no idea if I got a P or not. Fortunately, I had engrained them in my mind enough that I had not, but still it was not fun to watch others fail. And hard for spotters to even know. No thanks.

[William Waddy]

I think the thing that makes the difference is whether or not a sweep makes logical sense to us so that we can imprint it in our brains sufficiently BEFORE we shoot so that WHEN we actually shoot the sweep we can recall it, even in that limbo state that our brains tend to gravitate to when shooting.

 

Thus, I believe sweeps like the ones you mentioned have a high risk of becoming P-traps, because it is difficult to grasp a logical sequence or rhythm. For example, in one shoot I scored, a stage with one of these sweeps ended up accounting for almost one third of the P's for an entire 12 stage match. I don't think we'll be using that sweep again

 

Another thing that I think can help when "unusual" sweeps are used is to paint the targets different colors. I think this may help our brains remember the sequence. For example, with a Brat sweep (1-3-2-3-1), perhaps having the middle target painted a different color would help our brains remember to make that initial jump from 1 to 3, rather than a sweep. Likewise, a sequence with 3 targets that starts on the center target perhaps should use a larger or different-shaped target in the middle, also painted a different color.

 

Obviously, shooting sequences should be there to add variety and fun, NOT to trip us up. Just my two cents.

[Blastmaster]

Blastmaster, around these parts a California sweep is all shots on the solitary target.

Sometimes it is called a California dump.

 

 

However when I went to one of the lists of sweeps, I found that it was defined by

 

California Sweep: From Old Scout (SASS# 323, CA). “Every other shot must be on the first target.

The remaining shots will form a sweep.” His example suggested eight shots on five targets,

1-2-1-3-1-4-1-5. See also Hermit Joe Sweep.

 

I guess that is a regional difference.

 

 

LOL.. can one start on the right side of the solitary target or must you start on the left? kidding.

 

There are all kinds of regional sweeps that the locals think are common knowledge,,,, but are not. That is where the rub comes in without intension of harming anyone.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

What really irritates me are stages with challenging sweep sequences and then to find a different challenging sequence for 1st pistol, 2nd pistol, rifle and shotgun. That just tells me we have an evil Range Master at work, who doesn't care about his customers or how many penalties they get.

 

Equally as bad are stages written for gun placement and replacement after shooting the gun that are not intuitive and done to purposely slow down shooters. Example, start with gun on table and then restage gun in a not so stable rack next to the table, rather than carry it to a table at next gun position. Sometimes this is done for downrange movement, but in many cases it is not. Much prefer, make gun safe instead.

[Blastmaster]

What really irritates me are stages with challenging sweep sequences and then to find a different challenging sequence for 1st pistol, 2nd pistol, rifle and shotgun. That just tells me we have an evil Range Master at work, who doesn't care about his customers or how many penalties they get.

 

 

I know of only one of those kind of RM,, and he does even more evil things than that, and I haven't been back.

 

 

Problem solved

 

We're getting off topic and that could lead us down a 10,000 posting thread.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I thought this was a shooting sport not a memory test.

The targetting order should be easy to memorize.

My favorites are Nevada, California, Lawrence Welk, double tap or triple tap.

Some of the others are more complex than needed.

While shooters choice may seem fun it really creates an opportunity for all shooters to shoot a different stage.

And it can create some unintended consequences.

 

If the purpose of complex shooting sequences is to slow down faster shooters, it doesn't work that way.

It normally hurts the middle to bottom shooters.

The top shooters are fast and are always going to be fast as they PRACTICE.

 

And the old, short term memory loss shooters.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I try to shoot GF,but if I have to break a stage down to one gun then the other I have to shoot it DD.I watch our good Gunfighters shoot and then take my P and shoot GF or I shoot DD.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

p1, p2, p2, p1, p3,p1,p1,p2,p3,p2,p1 is a great one

[Charlie Whiskers]

I may be different,but I like both big and close targets and smaller farther out targets.I also like a variety of sweeps.I agree that pistol and rifle should be the same sweep.Most sweeps aren't all that hard unless you try to overthink them.I find breaking them down to the simplest sequence works best.For me it's boring to just go shoot what you want to on each stage.Having 1 or 2 stages of those and 1 or 2 stages of "make me think a bit" makes a shoot more fun and interesting.The best shooters will come out on top every match anyway,so why not mix it up a bit to add some variety.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

...new sweeps that produced numerous P's and grumbles,,,,P1,p2,p3,p4,p3,p3,p3,p2,p2,p1Blastmaster

 

 

That's the Tadpole Sweep. Folks around my area love the sweep. I used this sweep at the last match -- 2 Ps out of 46 shooters, which is about average for a stage.

[crooked jake,4371]

These kind of monkey shines are what have taken the place of more difficult shooting problems in many cases. The targets themselves are easy to hit, its the pointless mind games that are tough. I would much rather be be doing more challenging shooting (smaller targets, moving targets, movement to engage targets etc.) than this kind of stuff. If I wanted to do puzzles I would stay at home. One of the most entertaining matches I ever went to had no instructions as how to shoot or where to shoot from (except to say where the firing line was). The targets were designated pistol, rifle and shotgun but how you shot them was up to you. They were laid out so that there were obstructions etc. and you had to figure out the best way to do it. It was lots of fun.

 

Good post Doc............bet that was a fun match!!!!!

[Blastmaster]

That's the Tadpole Sweep. Folks around my area love the sweep. I used this sweep at the last match -- 2 Ps out of 46 shooters, which is about average for a stage.

 

That is what they called it too. 10P & 112 misses out of 138 shooters for that stage. Tadpole sweep for both rifle & pistol. Pistol targets set about 5yds and rifle at 15yds. Standard size targets

 

Nothing wrong with the Tadpole Sweep in my view. Sponsoring club has shot it before but when shooters come from far and wide, I guess most of them haven't seen it. Don't know.

 

BTW, the Brat Sweep generated 21 P's & 58 misses or about 27% of all the P's for the match

 

The shoot was fun, easy (for a lot of us at least,,,,21 clean shooters) and all those good things and I loved it and I am not here to speak badly of the club, match or stages. I was not the MD, but rest asure, the club looks at the stats and is trying to make it better and better.

 

Back to the topic, target sequence getting to hard?

 

Edit: Which stage had zero P's? The stage with: Sweep 5 targets twice from the left. Both pistols and rifle.

[El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942]

I don't think "stage writers" are out to intentionally make "P" traps. Most shooters in a club have no idea what goes on to put a match on, even monthly's, other than to show up to shoot. Instead of having the attitude to vote with your feet, most core members would welcome input, HELP, and even stage writing from other shooters. After writing many, many, stages overtime, you kind of run out of ideas and try to come up with some new stuff to try. Sometimes they are fun, and sometimes not so much. But I don't believe people should be complaining about them, just shoot and have fun no matter what comes. Just my 2 cents. El Mulo

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Back to the topic, target sequence getting to hard?

 

 

Not from my view in the saddle. There are some fun sweeps for the rifle that just do not work well with the pistol. If I use that particular sweep for the rifle, then I use some easy pistol sweep such as dump 10 shots on three targets; the only requirement is all targets must be engaged at least twice. I always check the stats after a match. Usually we'll have 1-3 Ps per stage, no matter how simple. If a certain sweep suddenly causes the Ps to jump up to 8 or 10 Ps for that stage (given no other factors), I won't use that sweep anymore.

 

 

After the match, I always ask a few people if the match was too easy or too difficult. I almost always get back, "Just right." Some people don't like bonuses; some love them. Some people don't like fliers; some people love them; some people don't like tricks on a stage (like carrying a gold bag); some people love them... and so it goes. You'll never please 100%. You just do your best.

[Korupt Karl]

Often times a sweep reads more difficult than it actually is. Sometimes you hear groans when it's read and then when you see it shot a few times by early shooters it becomes easier. Sweeps also are more difficult for different disciplines as well where it might be great for a duelist or a GF, but more difficult for a traditional.

 

I think that a new sweep is only new once. If you have shot it once it isn't as difficult the next time. I agree that if it is fairly new it should be repeated with the rifle.

 

KK

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Things are MUCH simpler than 8 yrs ago...I don't even care if the rifle and pistol are different....

 

CC

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Often times a sweep reads more difficult than it actually is. Sometimes you hear groans when it's read and then when you see it shot a few times by early shooters it becomes easier. Sweeps also are more difficult for different disciplines as well where it might be great for a duelist or a GF, but more difficult for a traditional.

 

I think that a new sweep is only new once. If you have shot it once it isn't as difficult the next time. I agree that if it is fairly new it should be repeated with the rifle.

 

KK

Hi KK,

 

Agreed! In 2008, I attended the Western Regional, Last Stand at Chimney Rock, for the first time. After reading the scenarios, I thought "Yikes, those look tough." The target placement and coloration made it much easier than they looked. We only had one P on 12 stages on our posse and it wasn't me.

 

Yep, also on the comment about being more difficult for different shooting styles. Last month The Outlaws president wrote the stages to be GF friendly to the max. They were not too friendly to the rest of us who changed pistols half way through. How's that for a turnabout? I got two Ps I can't remember the stages; but they were two I'd never shot before. You know the type, where the rifle is easy but the two pistols end up being different scenarios.

 

Please know I'm not complaining. I just need to p-p-p-practice or take my Ps. (I'll probably take the latter.)

 

Regards,

 

AM

[Wif]

Blastmaster it was a pleasure shooting with you at the"Geezer Games". I earned a "P" and two misses on stage #2 and the Tadpole sweep. I got out my score card to check.

As I remember it was not difficult but it did not flow.

One tadpole sweep a season is enough of me.

I had a good time anyway.

Wif

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Maybe Cpt Baylor has it right. "It is supposed to be a gunfight not a memory contest".

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Don't forget we are in the ENTERTAINMENT business. At a 2 day match you shoot about 4-6 minutes. It had better be FUN!!! If the talk in the evenings isn't wasn't stage X fun??? you have made a mistake. The last thing you want is shooters saying: I want a T-Shirt that says "I survived stage 4". BTDT!! I have learned a lot about stage writing in the last 40 years. Simple FUN stages always win

[twelve mile REB]

No I am NOT in the entertainment business the Wild Bunch is in the entertainment business. I'm one of those yocals that support their business. Otherwise, I agree, interesting but not impossible stages.

12

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

What I love most about difficult sweeps, even when there is a different sweep within the stage for each firearm. When the stage writer of the match has numerous "P"s because even they can't remember what they sequenced. I've seen it happen many times, and makes my day. MT

[Blastmaster]

Blastmaster it was a pleasure shooting with you at the"Geezer Games". I earned a "P" and two misses on stage #2 and the Tadpole sweep. I got out my score card to check.

As I remember it was not difficult but it did not flow.

One tadpole sweep a season is enough of me.

I had a good time anyway.

Wif

 

 

Thanks Wif,

 

It was my pleasure too, to meet and shoot with you. Great Posse and a gtreat time.

 

Perhaps we can meet again at the Geezer Games.

 

Blastmaster

[Blastmaster]

Don't forget we are in the ENTERTAINMENT business. At a 2 day match you shoot about 4-6 minutes. It had better be FUN!!! If the talk in the evenings isn't wasn't stage X fun??? you have made a mistake. The last thing you want is shooters saying: I want a T-Shirt that says "I survived stage 4". BTDT!! I have learned a lot about stage writing in the last 40 years. Simple FUN stages always win

 

 

 

HJ,

 

I agree, the MD and host club is in the entertainment business. However, every shooter has a somewhat different perspective of what is fun. With that said, the best the host club can do is make it a super event for the majority. Put a little something for everyone into a match where at the end, everyone has had a chance to shine. There will always be those hard to please folks, but they perhaps get their enjoyment out of complaining ( they like their whine with their cheese ) and really, you couldn't drive them off if you tried.

 

Blastmaster

 

Thanks all, for your comments. Not one name calling in all of this...Thank you for that.