.45 Colt vs .45 Schofield vs .45 Cowboy Special

[Scratch McCoy]

I am kinda new to CAS and all my guns are chambered to shoot .45 Colt. It seems that many .45 Colt shooters actually shoot .45 Schofield or .45 Cowboy Special in their revolvers. For all you 45 shooters out there what cartridge do you use in your revolvers and why? What is the advantage of .45 Schofield or .45 Cowboy Special vs the normal .45 Colt?

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

45 Schofield and the 45 Cowboy Special recoil less in revolvers. The only other advantage is if you are using black powder, you will use less, therefore adding to an economic benefit.

 

I shoot full load black powder 45 Colt loads - Why? cause it suits my definition of fun

 

GG ~

[The Shoer 27979]

I shoot regular 45 long colt in most of my guns although I do shoot 45 Schofield in my '60 army conversions. Most the people who use the Schofield and the Cowboy Special do it to conserve powder is my understanding,

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Scratch and welcome to SASS/CAS.

 

I mostly (75% of the time) shoot .38's BUT, when I shoot my Ruger .45's (25%), I use the Cowboy .45 Special (C45S) and really like it.

 

In my Ruger Sheriff models, both .38 and .45, the feel is the same. I mostly use a 160 grainer in the C45S but Adirondack Jack has an EXCELLECT 130 grainer that I really love. I get the 160's cheaper and thats the ONLY reason I shoot them.

 

As for performance, I personally think it can rival any other cartridge we use in power factors, powder burning efficiency, AND accuracy. It is a great cartridge.

 

I wish you well.

 

 

..........Widder

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

.45 Colt in mine.

• I've had pistols chambered in .45 Colt "all my life". It's a tradition.
• Started with a large inventory of the brass, it's easier to find and cheaper than the other two (although nowhere near "cheap")
• I've figured out how to load good .45 Colt revolver loads to be "about as fast to shoot as what I could do with .38s" (170 grains at 700 FPS)
• I don't need ANOTHER die setup to load revolver ammo, and I don't have to modify the 73 rifle to shoot a short round.
• I often switch from smokeless to BP, and really like the "original" when shooting BP in revolvers. For rifle, I have a 44-40 dedicated to BP.

Anyway,

It's really YOUR choice, you might as well decide based upon YOUR OWN CRITERIA! Which will be different from mine or anyone else who replies.

 

Shoot a year, then ask yourself this question again.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

I have a pair of Rugers and a pair of 72 Open Tops. I shoot 45 LC BP loads in the Rugers but switched to Schofield loads in the Open Tops because they are relatively light guns and the recoil is just a tad heavy. And I don't see any reason to beat the guns up, they were originally designed for 44 rimfire rounds. Using the Schofield case gives me less recoil but enough to help bring the gun back to my thumb for shooting FCD. Some may want to save money, but I find using the shorter cases allow me to download BP without introducing filler or wads to take up space in the LC cases.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

The .45 Colt was designed for BP. With BP you'll get the full effect, both financially and recoil wise. If you shoot smokeless, the smaller capcity of the CS will give you a more efficient burn. If you shoot BP, you'll get a more efficient use of your dollar.

 

CR

[Bart Solo]

I have tried 45 Special and like what I have shot. I have been toying with moving to 45 Special using 160 grain bullets. Currently I have a good supply of 45 Colt brass and 200 grain bullets, but lightly loaded 160 grain 45 Special bullets offer significant recoil reduction over lightly loaded 200 grain 45 Colt bullets. All that said, I mostly shoot 38 these days and the 160 grain 45 Special bullets still have more recoil than lightly loaded 125 grain 38 bullets. The 45 Special brass is more expensive than the 45 Colt brass.

 

One of the real pleasures of CAS is the number of bullet options we have if we reload. If you want a full load 250 grain 45 bullet go for it. Load it smokeless or black powder, your choice. If you want a mouse fart 106 grain 38 that is an option as well. If, like me, you find reloading to be one of the more enjoyable parts of CAS you are free to play with your bullet component choices as long as you stay within reasonable limits. I personally stick within the published range. I know others who will drop below the published range, but they tend to have more problems than me.

[Partner]

In my view, you can't beat 45 Cowboy Specials for burning efficiency with fast burning powder. I use Bullseye for my pistol ammo.

Rifle still uses 45LC with slower burning powder.

I don't use the cowboy special to get light loads. I use a 200 gr bullet with enough bullseye to get 700 fps out of my pistols.

Would like to load them faster, but that means the splatter that may come back , is coming back faster.

My test results:

45 LC / 200 gr bullet at 700 fps AVERAGE. Velocity spread +/- 80 fps (when shooting it's POP or BANG or KaBoom) Lots of air space

in that load.

 

45 Schofield / 200 gr bullet at 700 fps AVERAGE. Velocity spread +/- 40 fps. Better

 

45 Cowboy Special / 200 gr bullet at 700 fps average. TOTAL spread : 15 fps

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Howdy Scratch. I went from .45 Colt to Schofield and then Cowboy Specials for my Open Top pistols. I found the smaller cases were much better for consistent combustion and reduced recoil. The downside to the Schofields is the rim is larger than the Colt case so you'll need a different shell holder or shell plate. The .45 CS rim is the same as the .45 Colt.

 

And speaking of the larger Schofield rim, that may be a problem in some revolver cylinders, especially the rebated ones.

 

The other thing to consider are your dies. Some .45 Colt dies will seat and crimp the shorter cases, others won't. In my case, my RCBS dies won't go low enough to seat and crimp the Schofield and CS cases, but my Hornady dies will.

 

In the end, it depends on what your objective is. If you want light loads and minimum recoil, use the .45CS. The cavernous volume of the Colt cases just doesn't lend itself to that very well as it wasn't designed for it.

 

Good luck!

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I found a .45 Auto Rim roll crimp that works great for the CS.

 

 

CR

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Scratch, if yer new at this game, ya probably didn't take note of an article written by Mike Venturino several years ago entitled ".45 Colt Sucks" or something like that. He laid out all the above-mentioned "problems" associatated with .45 Colt. He reminded us how it's an old horse pistol round, designed for use by and against cavalry, where it was as much an "anti-horse" round as anything. Even many soldiers back in the day found it a little stout. It made a poor transition to smokeless in anything other than "service-level" loads, a 250 grain bullet at 850 fps or thereabouts. As a target round, it plain sucked. In my research I have NEVER found a bullseye match of any consequence won with .45 colt.

 

Speaking of Bullseye, a target game where accuracy is paramount, but fairly light recoil is favored, what DOES work well, winning every week all over the country is a light load in .45 ACP. It's worked for a very, very long time. But the .45 ACP isn't legal in classic cowboy, and won't work in .45 Colt cylinders.

 

AND tens of thousands of cowboys ALREADY HAVE .45 Colt revolvers, and many (including myself) favor the nostalgia and feel of a revolver in .45 Colt. The .45 Colt ROUND sucked for CAS, especially in Black Powder classes, but in smokeless too. Nothin wrong with the guns, (Many feel they balance better than nose-heavy .38s). the round just sucked.

 

So A crazy feller who goes by Adirondack Jack spent the last SEVEN YEARS refining the concept and capabilities of a new cartridge for .45 Colt guns that would make the .45s work with absolute parity with the .38s in terms of recoil, in terms of accuracy, and as close as possible, in terms of cost to shoot in the BP classes. (it's a mite spendier in smokeless if ya want the maximum benefit.)

 

The brass is here, it works, we've sold over 1/2 a million of em. We've collaborated with some very smart gunsmiths, professional and amateur to bring about some rifle mods to accept the short round in our race guns, including a very easy to install replacement carrier for the '60, '66, and '73 rifles of my own design. Most recently we've pushed the limits of BULLET technology creating a 130 grain HB .45 bullet that absolutely achieves parity in terms of recoil with any .38 load, and groups nicely besides. The major players said it couldn't be done, but in "Adirondack-speak" that simply means "it takes a little longer."

 

At last weeekend's NYS Championships, I was proud to see at least FOUR shooters get awards for their shooting using the C45S rounds, including top honors in at least one category, and well-represented in some closely fought races in a couple of others.

 

Don't let anybody tell ya ya GOT TO run .38s to run fast. It simply isn't so. Traditionally loaded .45 Colt AMMO may suck, but there is nothing wrong with the GUNS if they are properly fed. We got that covered.

 

AJ

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

In most instances, if yer already set up for LONG COLT, swapping out the seat/crimp die to ACP and yer set.

 

LEE .45 ACP seat/crimp dies work (just crank em down a ways to roll crimp). the Hornady "all .45" dies work. Dillon .45 ACP dies work. It isn't rocket science.

 

(With a Dillon powder measure ya need the ACP powder funnel as well (the actual powder die that holds the measure is universal, its the funnel ya change).

[Tex Fiddler SASS Life 10127]

There are many answers to this question. AJ's recent post is one excellent answer, but I've had good luck with the traditional old .45 (long colt).

 

My wife and I shoot standard .45s with a 200 gn bullet at 600 fps out of my old model Vaqueros (4 5/8" barrels) in both rifle and pistol. Advantages are one load for rifle and pistol, no need to have heaver loads for knockdows. One load is simple for reloading and consistent for shooting big matches (the same load for every shot). I do a few other things for consistency needed to compete at the top level. if you are interested in the details or my specific load, send me a email. joepro@proandsons.com

 

-tex fiddler

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Scratch, if yer new at this game, ya probably didn't take note of an article written by Mike Venturino several years ago entitled ".45 Colt Sucks" or something like that. He laid out all the above-mentioned "problems" associatated with .45 Colt. He reminded us how it's an old horse pistol round, designed for use by and against cavalry, where it was as much an "anti-horse" round as anything. Even many soldiers back in the day found it a little stout. It made a poor transition to smokeless in anything other than "service-level" loads, a 250 grain bullet at 850 fps or thereabouts. As a target round, it plain sucked. In my research I have NEVER found a bullseye match of any consequence won with .45 colt.

 

Speaking of Bullseye, a target game where accuracy is paramount, but fairly light recoil is favored, what DOES work well, winning every week all over the country is a light load in .45 ACP. It's worked for a very, very long time. But the .45 ACP isn't legal in classic cowboy, and won't work in .45 Colt cylinders.

 

AND tens of thousands of cowboys ALREADY HAVE .45 Colt revolvers, and many (including myself) favor the nostalgia and feel of a revolver in .45 Colt. The .45 Colt ROUND sucked for CAS, especially in Black Powder classes, but in smokeless too. Nothin wrong with the guns, (Many feel they balance better than nose-heavy .38s). the round just sucked.

 

So A crazy feller who goes by Adirondack Jack spent the last SEVEN YEARS refining the concept and capabilities of a new cartridge for .45 Colt guns that would make the .45s work with absolute parity with the .38s in terms of recoil, in terms of accuracy, and as close as possible, in terms of cost to shoot in the BP classes. (it's a mite spendier in smokeless if ya want the maximum benefit.)

 

The brass is here, it works, we've sold over 1/2 a million of em. We've collaborated with some very smart gunsmiths, professional and amateur to bring about some rifle mods to accept the short round in our race guns, including a very easy to install replacement carrier for the '60, '66, and '73 rifles of my own design. Most recently we've pushed the limits of BULLET technology creating a 130 grain HB .45 bullet that absolutely achieves parity in terms of recoil with any .38 load, and groups nicely besides. The major players said it couldn't be done, but in "Adirondack-speak" that simply means "it takes a little longer."

 

At last weeekend's NYS Championships, I was proud to see at least FOUR shooters get awards for their shooting using the C45S rounds, including top honors in at least one category, and well-represented in some closely fought races in a couple of others.

 

Don't let anybody tell ya ya GOT TO run .38s to run fast. It simply isn't so. Traditionally loaded .45 Colt AMMO may suck, but there is nothing wrong with the GUNS if they are properly fed. We got that covered.

 

AJ

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_174_29/ai_n8968390/?tag=mantle_skin;content

 

..but for those who like the 45 Colt it is perfectly suitable for our sport and targets...many folks shoot 'clean' matches with 'em. So if that's what ya got, and ya like it - go for it

 

GG ~

[Coffee Pot SASS#55659]

I shoot 45s. In the rifle a 45 Colt case with a 200gr and Trail Boss (mid range) load. Shoots very well. In the revolvers I use a Schofield case with 200gr bullet and mid-range Trail Boss load for Schofield. All load data is from the Hodgdon Website. This is a very nice load with little recoil IMO. I used to load a lighter bullet in the Schofield case, but don't think there is enough difference to make it worthwhile to inventory two bullet weights. I have a large supply of 45 Colt and Schofield cases and they don’t seem to wear out. If I didn’t have the supply of Schofield cases I'd use Cowboy Special. In fact, if I ever get a wild hair, and some extra gold I believe I'll do it anyway.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

We shoot the Cowboy 45 Special with smokeless and BP. Tried 160 and 180gr bullets, but went back to 200gr for both. Maybe a little more recoil, but that's how we like it. Good Luck

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

FWIW my pistol load is a 130 grain HB bullet and a dose of Bullseye that would almost produce 2000 rounds per pound but not quite. Takes down KDs, and is flat fun, especially duelist or outlaw, where I ain't gotta fish for the hammer or adjust my grip.... In the '73 (with cowboy Carrier) I run a "he man" C45S load with a 160 rnfp bullet and the exact same charge.

 

If Pike ever gets the rest of the HR11 vids up (I trust he will), we had a neat railroad track mover on stage six or seven, shot with the rifle. Ya had to pick the rifle up off a "flat car", trip the lever to start the mover, and if ya was fast enough, shoot the mover 8 times as it ran across in front of ya on the rr tracks before it diasappeared behind a water tower "screen" for about 2-3 seconds (otherwise ya had to wait for it to appear on the far side to finish up). Most shooters got 5-6 rounds off before it disappeared. Those running heavy .45 loads were lucky to get 4 rounds off. A few FAST shooters got all 8 shots off. I am told when I hit the plate the 8th time, it still had a ways to go before it disappeared (I saw the feller who won duelist do exactly the same thing, using exactly the same rifle and loads). I dunno, as I was concentrating on the front sight and plate, and never saw the "screen". I did hear some cheers of "good run" as I scurried off to finish the stage with the SG. Moral of the story? I am NOT a fast shooter, I shoot 40 something stages shooting duelist (mostly because I haven't practiced in years), but my FORTY FIVE codymatic with the cowboy Carrier and light loads ROCKS!

[Tangent Ranger]

I generally shoot the long colt , but because my '94 trapper will only hold 9 rounds, When I use it I run Schofields in both the trapper and the pistols.

[Black Angus McPherson]

I use .45 Colt with 250 grain bullets. Cause I like it like that.

 

I load .45 Schofield with 200 grain bullets for when my wife shoots with me. She likes the lower recoil and it makes ammo identification easier.

 

I never saw a need to use the .45 Special because I don't shoot BP and I already have a bunch of .45 Colt brass. HOWEVER, Adirondack Jack said something that peaks my curiosity about the round. Accuracy.

 

Speed has never been my strong suit, I average about 35 seconds per stage, but I really like knowing I can hit where I aim.

 

I have never been happy with the accuracy of my .45 Colt Rugers. They have never shot the groups I can get with any of my .38's. IF I can get the accuracy of my .38's using the .45 Special I'm gonna have to get some brass.

 

So, AJ, I hate to sidetrack this, but what's the story on the .45 Spec. accuracy? Can I still use my 250 grain RNFP or will I need to start getting some lighter bullets?

 

Black Angus McPherson

wondering if he knows anyone that would swap some .45 specials for some .45 Colts.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

A picture is worth 1000 words department:

 

Cartridges

 

Left to right in the photo, the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP.

 

It's all about powder capacity. Take a look at the 45CS, the 45AR, and the 45ACP. Notice anything? All three cases are the same length. And all three have the same interior capacity.

 

When the 45 Colt was developed it was supposed to hold about 40 grains of Black Powder. The 45 Schofield came along shortly afterward, it was supposed to hold about 28 grains of Black Powder. That's how much powder was needed for a reliable man (or horse) stopping round. The only reason the 45 Schofield round was invented in the first place was because S&W did not want to lengthen the frames of their large Top Break revolvers when they submitted the Schofield revolver to the Army for testing. Their large frames could not accommodate a cylinder long enough to chamber the 45 Colt cartridge. So the Army let them off the hook and bought a few thousand Schofield models chambered for the shorter Schofield round. That led to problems but that is another story for another day. Incidentally, S&W later put longer cylinders on some of their later large frame revolvers so that they could chamber longer rounds like the 38-40 and the 44-40. Daniel Wesson had learned a valuable lesson, but it was too late for the Schofield.

 

Anyhoo, when the Blessed John M Browning designed the 45 ACP round around 1905 or so, the Smokeless era had dawned. He no longer needed a case as large as the 45 Colt for a man stopping round because pound for pound Smokeless powder was much more powerful than Black Powder. So the 45ACP was invented and all was good. About 30 years later the 45AR was invented so revolvers chambered for 45ACP could fire and eject rimmed rounds without the need of moon clips.

 

If you are going to shoot Black Powder, like I do, and you want to stick to conventional cartridges, the 45 Colt and the 45 Schofield are the way to go. Lots of powder, lots of boom, lots of recoil, lots of smoke.

 

But as Mike V says, 45 Colt performs best when loaded up to simulate the old Black Powder loads. Enter Cowboy Action Shooting not too many years ago, and lots and lots of Cowboy shooters started loading the grand old 45 Colt cartridge down to approximate the recoil of a 38 Special. And that's when the trouble started. Incomplete powder burns and inconsistent velocity. You just can't put three flakes of Whiz Bang into that huge old case and expect it to perform well. Way too much air space.

 

So good old AJ came along and invented the 45 Cowboy Special. The exact same head design as the 45 Colt, but the same interior capacity as the 45ACP and 45AR. Genius!

 

Now there was a cartridge that would fit in any revolver chambered for 45 Colt, that light powder charges could be put inside, and still give consistent pressure and velocity. Absolute genius, the man deserves a medal.

 

So that's basically it.

 

If you want to load Black Powder with plenty of boom and smoke, 45 Colt is your cartridge.

 

If you want to load Black Powder with a little bit less boom and smoke, then you might want to use the Schofield round.

 

If you want to load reasonably hefty Smokeless loads, go with 45 Colt or 45 Schofield.

 

But if you want your 45s to recoil like a 38, with just a teeny bit of powder in them, the 45 Cowboy Special is for you.

 

P.S. I loaded all the cartridges shown with standard Hornady dies. Except the 45 Colt, I loaded that with an old set of RCBS. I load Shofields with a standard Hornady 45 Colt die set except I have set the seating/crimp die lower for the lower case. I loaded the 45 Cowboy Special with a standard set of Hornady 45 ACP dies that I keep set up for 45 Auto Rim. Did not have to change a thing.

 

 

 

 

One More Thing.

 

Every once in a blue moon you will find a revolver chambered for 45 Colt that does not like the 45 Schofield round. I have two 'original model' Ruger Vaqueros that do not like them. The rim diameter of the Schofield round is a little bit wider than the Colt round. Nominally .520 vs .512. The larger diameter goes back to the old S&W Top Break days, it was necessary for the ejector system on the Top Break revolvers to get a purchase on the rims without slipping off. Most revolvers of the Colt and Italian Replica designs will not have a problem. The geometry of the Ruger cylinder ratchet teeth is different than the Colt design. Less clearance. Those Rugers of mine each had one chamber that would not allow a Schofield round to seat. I had to take care of it one day a couple of years ago at a match when one of my Colts broke a spring and I had to use one of my Ruger backups. I was shooting Schofield rounds that day, and one chamber would not seat the fatter rims. It took about 15 minutes at lunch with a really crummy file and a lot of cursing to fix that one chamber. And the result was not too pretty, but at least I could finish the match without worrying about which chamber not to use.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Howdy

 

A picture is worth 1000 words department:

 

Cartridges

 

Left to right in the photo, the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP.

 

It's all about powder capacity. Take a look at the 45CS, the 45AR, and the 45ACP. Notice anything? All three cases are the same length. And all three have the same interior capacity.

 

When the 45 Colt was developed it was supposed to hold about 40 grains of Black Powder. The 45 Schofield came along shortly afterward, it was supposed to hold about 28 grains of Black Powder. That's how much powder was needed for a reliable man (or horse) stopping round. The only reason the 45 Schofield round was invented in the first place was because S&W did not want to lengthen the frames of their large Top Break revolvers when they submitted the Schofield revolver to the Army for testing. Their large frames could not accommodate a cylinder long enough to chamber the 45 Colt cartridge. So the Army let them off the hook and bought a few thousand Schofield models chambered for the shorter Schofield round. That led to problems but that is another story for another day. Incidentally, S&W later put longer cylinders on some of their later large frame revolvers so that they could chamber longer rounds like the 38-40 and the 44-40. Daniel Wesson had learned a valuable lesson, but it was too late for the Schofield.

 

Anyhoo, when the Blessed John M Browning designed the 45 ACP round around 1905 or so, the Smokeless era had dawned. He no longer needed a case as large as the 45 Colt for a man stopping round because pound for pound Smokeless powder was much more powerful than Black Powder. So the 45ACP was invented and all was good. About 30 years later the 45AR was invented so revolvers chambered for 45ACP could fire and eject rimmed rounds without the need of moon clips.

 

If you are going to shoot Black Powder, like I do, and you want to stick to conventional cartridges, the 45 Colt and the 45 Schofield are the way to go. Lots of powder, lots of boom, lots of recoil, lots of smoke.

 

But as Mike V says, 45 Colt performs best when loaded up to simulate the old Black Powder loads. Enter Cowboy Action Shooing not too many years ago, and lots and lots of Cowboy shooters started loading the grand old 45 Colt cartridge down to approximate the recoil of a 38 Special. And that's when the trouble started. Incomplete powder burns and inconsistent velocity. You just can't put three flakes of Whiz Bang into that huge old case and expect it to perform well. Way too much air space.

 

So good old AJ came along and invented the 45 Cowboy Special. The exact same head design as the 45 Colt, but the same interior capacity as the 45ACP and 45AR. Genius!

 

Now there was a cartridge that would fit in any revolver chambered for 45 Colt, that light powder charges could be put inside, and still give consistent pressure and velocity. Absolute genius, the man deserves a medal.

 

So that's basically it.

 

If you want to load Black Powder with plenty of boom and smoke, 45 Colt is your cartridge.

 

If you want to load Black Powder with a little bit less boom and smoke, then you might want to use the Schofield round.

 

If you want to load reasonably hefty hefty Smokeless loads, go with 45 Colt or 45 Schofield.

 

But if you want your 45s to recoil like a 38, with just a teeny bit of powder in them, the 45 Cowboy Special is for you.

 

P.S. I loaded all the cartridges shown with standard Hornady dies. Except the 45 Colt, I loaded that with an old set of RCBS. I loaded the 45 Cowboy Special with a standard set of Hornady 45 ACP dies that I keep set up for 45 Auto Rim. Did not have to change a thing.

 

 

 

 

One More Thing.

 

Every once in a blue moon you will find a revolver chambered for 45 Colt that does not like the 45 Schofield round. I have two 'original model' Ruger Vaqueros that do not like them. The rim diameter of the Schofield round is a little bit wider than the Colt round. Nominally .520 vs .512. The larger diameter goes back to the old S&W Top Break days, it was necessary for the ejector system on the Top Break revolvers to get a purchase on the rims without slipping off. Most revolvers of the Colt and Italian Replica designs will not have a problem. The geometry of the Ruger cylinder ratchet teeth is different than the Colt design. Less clearance. Those Rugers of mine each had one chamber that would not allow a Schofield round to seat. I had to take care of it one day a couple of years ago at a match when one of my Colts broke a spring and I had to use one of my Ruger backups. I was shooting Schofield rounds that day, and one chamber would not seat the fatter rims. It took about 15 minutes at lunch with a really crummy file and a lot of cursing to fix that one chamber. And the result was not too pretty, but at least I could finish the match without worrying about which chamber not to use.

 

Great info (as usual), but both my SS & blued Ruger 'Original model' Vaquero's load and shoot the 45 Schofields perfectly - I reckon it's a hit-or-miss thing...

 

'Original Model' Vaquero cylinder with 45 Schofield cartridges

 

of course DJ - ya could have just marked that one chamber that was finicky to be your free (or open) chamber...

 

GG ~

[Monco]

Thanks all, especially to AJ & DJ. Great info for a newby that doesn't yet know what to key in the search box.

Whilst trying to decide what caliber to go with, this info was at the right time in the right place for me......

.45 it is.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

There was a time that I really liked the notion of big holes in things and if there was a cloud of smoke, all the better. After a few years I get really tired of the mess associated with cartridge loading using black powder. Clean up was not really that big a deal and rust had never caused me any problems, even after leaving grungy, sooty guns sitting for weeks. The real mess for me was messing with those dang pan lubed bullets required for the real black. The changeover to Clean Shot (an old bp substitute) and standard lubed bullets was very easy and really saved time and mess. Back then I really think there was more of a price curve between BP subs and real black powder and though I was saving some money on the bullet change it was expensive. To try and save money on the new powder I tried my hand with fillers but was never very happy with them either, another slow, messy operation. The end all answer for 45 caliber was the C45Spec. Side benefits have been shooting these short 45 rounds in the pistol while using 44-40 in rifles, a problem for some 45Colt revolver shooters. Another has been the fact that the shortest 45 round will fall clear of Schofield stars instead of getting locked under the star like the 45colt case can.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Well that's good news. We just put about 1200 POUNDS of em in the shed yesterday, and need a couple customers

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

I shot 45lc in my original Colts for decades, but I bought a pair of open tops in 45 Schofield 8 or 9 years back. Since then, I have shot the open tops more and being able to use the Schofield in my 45 colt guns is nice. I still load the LC, since that is what I use in my competition 73, and I do use it in my revolvers, but I am loading more Schofield these days. Personally, I don't understand the C45Spec. With the Schofield available, I don't get the point, but hey,to each his own.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Hey!!! What Driftwood Said so eloquently. Double!

 

Coffinmaker

[George Rodgers]

My experience with 44russians and 44/40 applies to this discussion. With smokeless powders, I load to the same velocities. Standard deviation for 44/40 loads is typically 25 ft/sec and with 44 Russian STD dev is typically 8 ft/sec. I get much more consistent velocities with the smaller case volume of the 44russian.

 

However, group size is about the same. Maybe improved consistency in velocity is offset by the increased bullet "jump" with the shorter cases.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

My experience with 44russians and 44/40 applies to this discussion. With smokeless powders, I load to the same velocities. Standard deviation for 44/40 loads is typically 25 ft/sec and with 44 Russian STD dev is typically 8 ft/sec. I get much more consistent velocities with the smaller case volume of the 44russian.

 

However, group size is about the same. Maybe improved consistency in velocity is offset by the increased bullet "jump" with the shorter cases.

 

 

That certainly makes sense, and I have long suspected the same. IF we keep both rounds in the mutual hapy space, they "wash out" about the same. The short round just has a "happy space" that includes a much slower velocity at which the longer round begins to fall apart in consistency and accuracy.... (Ever hear those erratic "popcorn" 160 loads some try in .45 Colt? In ths short cases that don't happen until yer at ridiculously low levels (with light bullets you'd be below the 60 PF minimum).

[Go West]

I use Schofield for pistol and .45 Colt for rifle. Both my Pietta replicas and top break Ubertis feed the Schofields fine. I applaud the .45 cowboy concept, just haven't tried them. A few pards have tried them and seem to like them for efficiency, accuracy, etc.

[Trailrider #896]

Howdy, Pards!

Driftwood - If I may elucidate...right here in public...on the creation of the S&W Schofield cartridge (aka ".45 Revolver Ball" in Army nomenclature). Now, it is true that the cylinder of the Schofield revolver is too short to accept the .45 Colt's Revolver cartridge (aka .45 LC in modern parlance). However, the frame of the original Schofield wouldhave accepted a longer cylinder. How do I know? Because, if you compare an original Schofield frame and a modern Uberti-made Schofield in .45 LC, you'll find they are the same length.

 

What follows is conjecture, because I can't find any documentation to back it up. But logic makes a pretty strong case:

When the Colt's Single Action Army, cal. .45 was first produced and the original ammo with a 250 gr bullet and a 40 gr. charge of BP fired, a number of the cylinders burst! IIRC, the cylinders were wrought iron rather than steel. In addition, the recoil was a bit much for the fairly diminutive troopers of that day. So the Army cut the charges to 30 grains of BP and a 230 gr. bullet. Colt quickly changed the cylinders to steel,which took care of the problems...for the Colt's.

 

Enter the Schofield, and though I can't find documentation, I'd bet that even with the reduced .45 LC loading, S&W Schofields just couldn't stand the gaff! To prevent .45 Colt's Revolver loads from chambering in the Schofield's cylinders, S&W shortened the cylinder, extending the forcing cone of the barrel back to meet the shorter cylinder. They did not change the length of the frame, however. There was room for the gas ring, however, so the Schofield would work okay with BP residue. The new round, 0.10" shorter, and initially loaded by the arsenal only, was loaded with 28 grs. of powder and a 230 gr. bullet at around 710 ft/sec.

 

Flash forward about a century, and Uberti brings out a "Schofield" chambered for .45 LC. Same frame length as the original, but they trimmed the rear of the barrel off to accomodate the longer cylinder. No room for the gas ring however! Next, Smith & Wesson decides to get in on the action in the year 2000. Only, they are apparently not wanting folks trying to put in a longer cylinder, so they shortened the frame, as well as the cylinder! No gas ring on the S&W Schofield 2000 either!

 

I could be wrong about all this. (I was wrong once before... )

 

Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I run the real .45 colts round with it's intended bullets and at it's orignal velocities,,,,, ie; 250 -255 gr. bullets run out of my pistols (4 3/4 - 5 1/2 inch barrels) at between 924 & 960 Fps. With the SD. running around 3 Fps. for 20 rounds fired .... The same loads run out of my rifles at between 1,224 - 1,260 Fps. Dependent on barrel lenght of gun in use 20-24 inch ...

 

Why ????

 

Because to me that's Cowboy,,,,,, And I like it that way, as for accuracy these loads shoot far better than most can hold ...

I have gotten 5 shot groups from my pistols, shot from a sand-bagged rest of less than 3 inches at 75 yards ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Peddler Parsons SASS # 31281]

I started using the 45cb sp when A.J. first came out with them so I could compete with the 38's I use 250 gr. bullets with a charge that compresses about 1/8" with a good tight crimp for my 75 Outlaws then droped down to a 200 with the same compression it did a good job even at rifle distance when shooting Josey Wales. When I tryed a lighter bullet and less compresson I got a lot more smoke.

So I'm a true believer in the 45 Cowboy Special, but I still use the 45 Long Colt in the rifle

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

One note here. the C45S CAN be loaded to the same smokeless levels as JMB's sainted ACP loads (and beyond in suitable guns), and in the instance of BP use, is fairly comparable to MANY belt pistol rounds in use back in the day, such as the BP Webley loads, etc. It just happens to be very well suited to TARGET level loads as well.

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

I don't get it..who the hell would want parity in a 45 colt with a 38 spl?Competitive edge..maybe, but so what?

 

I shoot 45 colt cartridges in my 45 Colts and 45 S&W in my Schofields.I care more about being true to the Old West than gaining a competitive edge by using a wimp 45 cartridge comparable to a 38.

 

If you want to shoot 38's, shoot a 38....If you want to shoot a Colt 45, shoot 45 Colt cartridges..same with 45 S&W...Shoot it in a real Schofield(although historically the 45 S&W was made to be multi functional(although a proprietary S&W 45 cartridge, just like the 45 Colt was a Colt proprietary cartridge and The Wesson's refused to chamber their Schofields in a competitiors cartridge) by working in an 1873 Colt or a S&W 45 Schofield by the US cavalry and Springfield Arsenal.The 45 S&W was also the undoing of the Schofield after only 8969 copies were manufactured

The problem as I see it with SASS is that it no longer represents in any way ,shape or form the Old West..It has become IPSC in cowboy clothes and a cowboy hat.

A money race...Who can spend the most to gain a competitive edge(just like IPSC) which is even more ludicrous when you consider that I would guess less than 2% of all SASS shooters will ever have even a remote chance to win Major SASS matches...To 98% of all SASS sooters, a 1/10 of second advantage is meaningless, yet they still will buy a new 73 Uberti for $1000 + and then drop another $500 + into an action job that won't make the vast majority of shooters any more competitive(except when it comes to bragging rights about how much they spent on their revolvers and rifle to match their friend's guns).By the way, New 3rd gen Colts do not even need action jobs at all, by way of a practical example of cutting down the ridiculous expense of our sport.

 

Besides, the only 38 cartridge that's cowboy is the 38 long colt or the 38-40 WCF(which is actually a 40 cal)..38 S&W of course for pocket pistols side matches.

 

I think personally that it is high time for SASS to return to its roots and promote the pure fun of shooting cowboy guns the way the 19th century cowboys shot their guns..without short strokes, aluminum lifters, coil and piano wire springs in their pistols, and on and on ad infinitum,...Less categories,less internal mods,less money and more Cowboy!

 

I would venture to say that just as many potential cowboy shooters shun the sport, just like IPSC by not wanting to get into a money race just to have fun shooting.

 

Don't misinterpret my intention in wanting SASS to return to Cowboy action shooting..I commend Adirondack Jack for his ingenuity and resourcefullness

 

in creating the 45 cowboy cartridge...He has my utmost respect

 

But how many Cowoby shooters will in reality benefit from this custom caliber or a 38 load with 4 grains of Bullseye? Very damn few.

If you don't like recoil in a big bore pistol, shoot 32's or 38's.Big bore Colt revolvers shoot big bullets that are expected to recoil.

 

Sorry and I apologize if i got slightly off topic...Again, AJ has my unqualified respect for developing the 45 cowboy.It is a special application cartridge that only a relatively few can truly utilize competiviely.

 

How many of you out there in SASS land are truly competive enough to warrant shooting a reduced 45 colt cartridge..If you shoot a 45 Colt, shoot the load it was designed for.

OK..I will relinquish the soapbox and return you to your normal programming.

 

As everyone that knows me and has shot with me knows, I am a diehard Colt Fanatic;Shoot a 200 gr bullet with a traditional 45 colt load rather than the original 255 grain, fine..but shoot a real 45 cartridge...that recoils...I do own a matched pair of nickel/ivory gripped Colt 45's tuned by Bob James and they are superb..I have retired them after shooting over 50000+ round through each one without the first failure of any kind..but i have since gone back to my shooting roots and now shoot bone stock Colt 45's direct from the Colt Factory.' or my pair of bone stock S&W 2000 Schofields ( I also owned and shot for 10 years a pair of Happy's extremely radically tuned, ivory gripped Schofields that are truly remarkable: I sold them recently and bought a pair of box stock S&W 2000 Schofields with stock cartouched walnut grips)

 

Forgive me AJ, but the above is my take on the original post..No condemnation of your accomplishment is intended.We all have our own opinions on what CAS should or should not be.I stand by mine.

 

 

As an aside, I think the CFDA got it right..No mods to the revolver, 45 caliber only,albeit with wax bullets..levels the playing field to the point where only skill and expertise wins the day..not the amount of money you spent on your SAA, or by using a lightweight 45 comparable to a 38...everyone shoots the same load.

 

My sincere apologies to anyone I have offended by my own opinion.Was not meant to offend or diminsh AJ's superb accomplishment.

 

Respectfully,

 

Sixgun Shorty SASS # 35717Ls