.45 Schofields in a rifle chambered for .45 Colt

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On a whim, I just tried running some .45 Schofields in my AWA Lightning chambered for .45 Colt.

They worked flawlessly.

 

When I tried them in my lever guns, 66, 73, or 92, they didn't work.  One and a half cartridges tried to feed.   I just realized I didn't try them in my Burgess, but I have a feeling it won't work in it either.

But, they worked in the Lightning...   

So, if you wanna shoot .45 Schofield and you want a rifle that'll work with 'em, get a Lightning in .45 Colt.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Ah, not quite so fast there H.K.😎

 

I'm currently shooting THREE Uberti Henry Rifles and an 1866, running 45 Schofields with 185Gr Coated RNFP Bullets.  Bullets come from Missouri Bullets and Bullets by Scarlett, oh and Badman Bullets (when in stock).  Also run 'em naked.  Your problem is your loading the round too short.  You can't run anything shorter than a common 200Gr RNFP.  The 185s I run are just right.  Lightning Schmitling, toggle links run just fine at the proper length.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

AND..... the Marlin 1894 can be slightly tuned up to run the Schofield.

 

..........Widder

 

[Hooligan Howes]

How about cowboy 45 specials? Science !!!!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Well, what is "interesting" is that while with the lever guns, you either need to tweak the gun, or the load, or both, to run the shorter cartridges.   But, to my amusement, the Lightning ran them with no modifications needed.  To be honest, I am curious to try it with the Cowboy .45 Special, but I don't load that one.   

What prompted me to try this, was how a cartridge I am "developing" a .45-70 trimmed to .45 Colt Length, (I call it the .45-45) works just great in my large frame Colt, but only marginally well in my 86's.  

It's fun to try new things.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I shoot Schofields in my '73 with a 250gr bullet (200gr would be the same, as Coffinmaker mentioned)  It was my Wild Bunch rifle when back when they had a power factor.  1.39" OAL.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

Anyone try 45 Schofield in a 45 Colt Rossi 1892?

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

A little history lesson might help here.  Schofield was asked by the War Department to chamber his improved revolver in .45 Colt, already in use by the Army.  He rejected that request because it would have required slightly lengthening the cylinder to accommodate the longer .45 Colt cartridge.  Instead, he designed the .45 Schofield cartridge so that it could be used in BOTH his own Schofield revolver AND in the .45 Colt-chambered Colt SAA already fielded.  It should come as no surprise that the .45 Schofield cartridge will run in many guns chambered for .45 Colt.  Of course, many lever guns are very picky about OAL they will reliably feed, and that's no surprise either.  But don't forget, the rounds are not truly interchangeable, not even in revolvers, as the .45 Colt will not chamber in the shorter .45 Schofield cylinder.  It was that lack of interchangeability, and the resulting ammunition supply and operational issues, that quickly killed the Schofield program soon after it got off the ground.  Had Schofield not been so vain, and had he just slightly modified his gun to shoot the same .45 Colt round that everyone was already shooting in their SAAs, Smith & Wesson might have won that little marketplace battle with Colt and we'd mostly be shooting Schofield clones at our SASS matches.

Edited February 4 by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

So what modifications (if any) are recommended to run Schofield reliably in a 45 Colt 1873?

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

So what modifications (if any) are recommended to run Schofield reliably in a 45 Colt 1873?

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

None, as long as the bullet isn't too short.  Like I said, mine runs fine at 1.39" 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

22 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

So what modifications (if any) are recommended to run Schofield reliably in a 45 Colt 1873?

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

The real question is: why would anyone want to run .45 Schofield ammo in a .45 Colt chambered rifle?

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

10 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

The real question is: why would anyone want to run .45 Schofield ammo in a .45 Colt chambered rifle?

Have a pard who runs Schofield in a marlin and his pistols. Would like to run them in a ‘73 he has had for 10-12 years and not shot, in order to only load one cartridge. 
Regards

    
Gateway Kid

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

33 minutes ago, The Old ways said:

I found that the Schofield round would not feed or chamber in a 1873 rifle. However I had no problem with it working in a 1873 Uberti pistol or 1875 "Outlaw" (.45 Colts).

As designed, as I noted above.  The .45 Schofield cartridge was designed to work in .45 Colt revolvers as well.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

The real question is: why would anyone want to run .45 Schofield ammo in a .45 Colt chambered rifle?

Because I have a Third Model Schofield chambered in, well .45 Schofield.  I know I can run the shorter round in my plethora of .45 Colt revolvers, and it would be nice to be to run it in a rifle so I only need one caliber at a match, instead of two. 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Saves on powder also.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

The real question is: why would anyone want to run .45 Schofield ammo in a .45 Colt chambered rifle?

And here's another reason.  My 16" '73 will hold 10 full length 45 Colts in the tube but it is dang tight.  Schofields make loading it much easier.

[Sam Sackett]

8 hours ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

Anyone try 45 Schofield in a 45 Colt Rossi 1892?

I don’t know as it would work. I have a 45 Colt Rossi 92 and it chokes on anything shorter than 1.595” OAL. My 357 Mag Rossi 92 will choke on anything shorter than 1:535”. 
if I had a few 45 Special casings I would definitely try them. Might be surprised. 
 

Sam Sackett 

[Will Kane]

When I shot a 73 in 45 Colt, Schofied rounds were the cat’s meow for over the top reloads.

[McCandless]

My '66 ran fine with .45 S&W Schofields with a 200gr Bullet.  Shorter OAL wouldn't work.

The last .45 rifle I have left is a JM Marlin, runs Schofields with a 200gr perfectly.  I still use than one for WB.  No problems.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

3 hours ago, Will Kane said:

When I shot a 73 in 45 Colt, Schofied rounds were the cat’s meow for over the top reloads.

Seen a few people use the Cowboy 45 Spcl for that as well.  In either case, the OAL makes no difference.

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

I shot 45 S&W rounds in my Uberti 73 for many years with no adjustments with a 200 grain bullet.. If you have any Uberti revolvers older than about 15 years the 45 S&W round May not fit because the rim is a little larger than the 45 Colt. The newer production revolvers cylinders will fit either round with no issues. All my open tops for 45 shoot my 45 S&W rounds and my oldest pair are 15 years old. The 45 S&W round on older models fit in the cylinder but will not cycle. I use 45 S&W is cheaper to use in black powder when you use full loads and no fillers. DC

[Sedalia Dave]

A good Cowboy Gunsmith that knows their way around toggle link rifles, can easily modify the carrier so that it will feed 45 Schofields as well as 45 Colt.

 

Because 92s are OAL sensitive they will likely not feed 45 Schofields reliably.

 

Marlins may need the carrier modified slightly to reliably feed shorter cartridges.

 

 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

How do you modify a Toggle link carrier to use shorter rounds? Without using the Smith Shop carrier, I mean. Toggles are OAL sensitive also.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

This is turning out to be an unexpected fascinating thread.   It's been enjoyable to read about the success, or lack thereof, that people have had running Schofields in a .45 Colt chambered 73/66/Henry, Marlin or 92.  Given the number of people that it DID work for, I am likely to try tweaking me load to see if I can get it to work in the lever guns.

But am I the only one who has tried it with a Lightning?

[Nickle]

12 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

How do you modify a Toggle link carrier to use shorter rounds? Without using the Smith Shop carrier, I mean. Toggles are OAL sensitive also.

I believe it's the carrier that has to be replaced.  Not the toggles for 45 cowboy. 

In case some on here care about accuracy.  With smokeless I get alot better accuracy with 45LC than 45 cowboy.  I'm guessing it's the bullet jump. Also pressure can jump with small differences in the load with smaller case. Example with smokeless you can get a squib load and then with bullet seated deeper with same load probably above blackpowder pressures. 

I think a 45cs would be cool in a Henry or 66 chambered for it. I would much rather see ubertis chambered in 45cs than 9mm or 357

["Big Boston"]

An interesting thread. Although very common to load and shoot 38 Spl in a 357 firearm, or 44 Spl in a 44 Mag firearm, fewer shoot 45 Schofield in a 45 Colt or LC.

 

In the toggle link rifles, the ideal or rather a good cartridge OAL to use is app 1.45" to 1.55". 1.6" is the max. Max length will work, but as stated, the spring gets compressed about as far as it can go. Cowboys do not need maximum power, therefore a longer cartridge offers no advantage. There are lots of variables, but at the core LOAL is the main limiting factor IMHO, for a '60, '66 or '73. In a Marlin 94, to shoot 38 Spl most rifles need a bit of work on the lifter, I'd assume that is a common and easy mod. 

 

Certain calibers, like 357 Mag. and 45 Colt, with the bullets commonly available an OAL less than 1.6" isn't possible if you crimp in the cannelure groove. I have a Miroku '73 and for it I trim my 357 Mag brass to the FTX length of 1.25, load a 358665 to an OAL of 1.555". I'm pleased with how it works. It is accurate enough for targets at 50 yards, it feeds well and also works well in my pistols if I need to. Normally I shoot wadcutters in 357. I'm not a fan of cleaning the crud ring, my 38 Spl ammo is for my '66. 

 

For my Schofield chambered pistols I load a 230 gr bullet, the same cast bullet I use for my 1911 in 45 Auto. Because the bullet does not have a cannelure groove, I crimp into the shank and pick an OAL that works in my rifle as well. A rifle only has one chamber, and cleaning the chamber isn't much of a chore. 

 

It does take a bit of fiddling, but it's pretty easy to load ammo with decent Es/Sd and a velocity around 650 fps. The '73 I bought from a fellow cowboy was shot exclusively with 45 Colt cases shortened to Schofield length. One advantage not mentioned is that you can keep the pressure up a bit to minimize blowback and still keep velocity on the low side. 

 

BB

[Sedalia Dave]

14 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

How do you modify a Toggle link carrier to use shorter rounds? Without using the Smith Shop carrier, I mean. Toggles are OAL sensitive also.

 

It's the same modification that allows a .357 rifle to shoot 38 Special or a 44 mag rifle to shoot 44 Special.

[Griff]

16 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

How do you modify a Toggle link carrier to use shorter rounds? Without using the Smith Shop carrier, I mean. Toggles are OAL sensitive also.

By lowering the angle of the ramp in the front of the carrier.  I have 3 toggle link rifles, 2 '73s and an 1860, they each have a different angle on the ramp from the factory.  My oldest, with a born on date of 1986 has the shallowest angle and will feed Schofields, even with the little 160s but won't feed the C45S without the Smith Shop carrier.  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Unless something has drastically changed since I took down my shingle, there is NO modification required to the Carrier Block to run 45 Schofield Cases.  "Some" rifles do require a little judicious rubbin-n-buffin of the extractor claw to slide over the Schofield rim.  Other than that, the only issue is the length of the loaded cartridge.  I have never bothered to measure mine.  I just found cartridges loaded with bullets NO SHORTER than a common 200Gr RNFP would run just fine.  The 185Gr RNFP I currently load meet that length.

 

For the 1892 to run Schofield it may be necessary to check and shim the right side cartridge guide.  The cartridge guide needs to just "kiss" the cartridge to prevent stovepiping. 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Sedalia: so you're saying just run longer bullets to keep the OAL the same? ? Not really a modification.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

19 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Sedalia: so you're saying just run longer bullets to keep the OAL the same? ? Not really a modification.

I'm guessing he's saying that you can run the shorter bullets by shaving brass from the carrier to make the ramp longer.  Can't do much before cutting through to the lifter channel.  

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

On 2/4/2025 at 5:03 PM, Sam Sackett said:

I don’t know as it would work. I have a 45 Colt Rossi 92 and it chokes on anything shorter than 1.595” OAL. My 357 Mag Rossi 92 will choke on anything shorter than 1:535”. 
if I had a few 45 Special casings I would definitely try them. Might be surprised. 
 

Sam Sackett 

It doesn't work. I put one in and it cycled just fine. A big smile came on my face. Then I decided to try three. They got stuck in the magazine and wouldn't feed. A big frown came on my face. I had to take the magazine apart to get them out so I cleaned that while apart. Ran five 45 Colt cartridges flawlessly through it after reassembly. So much for that experiment.

[Muley Gil SASS # 57795]

On 2/4/2025 at 9:31 AM, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

A little history lesson might help here.  Schofield was asked by the War Department to chamber his improved revolver in .45 Colt, already in use by the Army.  He rejected that request because it would have required slightly lengthening the cylinder to accommodate the longer .45 Colt cartridge.  Instead, he designed the .45 Schofield cartridge so that it could be used in BOTH his own Schofield revolver AND in the .45 Colt-chambered Colt SAA already fielded.  It should come as no surprise that the .45 Schofield cartridge will run in many guns chambered for .45 Colt.  Of course, many lever guns are very picky about OAL they will reliably feed, and that's no surprise either.  But don't forget, the rounds are not truly interchangeable, not even in revolvers, as the .45 Colt will not chamber in the shorter .45 Schofield cylinder.  It was that lack of interchangeability, and the resulting ammunition supply and operational issues, that quickly killed the Schofield program soon after it got off the ground.  Had Schofield not been so vain, and had he just slightly modified his gun to shoot the same .45 Colt round that everyone was already shooting in their SAAs, Smith & Wesson might have won that little marketplace battle with Colt and we'd mostly be shooting Schofield clones at our SASS matches.

 

Colonel Schofield redesigned the top latch from barrel mounted to frame mounted. He didn't build any revolvers. The US Army asked Smith & Wesson to build the Schofield models in .45 Colt. S&W didn't want to lengthen the frame AND they felt the rim on the .45 Colt cartridge was too small to work with their ejection system. S&W designed the .45 S&W cartridge aka Schofield cartridge so that it would work in both their handgun and in the 1873 Colt Single Action Army.

 

There were two contracts for Schofields. The 1st was for 3000 revolvers in 1875 and the second, in 1878, for the Second Model, was for 5000 revolvers. The Schofield revolvers were sold as surplus from the Army in the 1880s. There were only two Schofield models, the difference being the shape of the latch. 

 

This info came from the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 4th Edition, by Suprica and Nahas.

["Big Boston"]

7 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I'm guessing he's saying that you can run the shorter bullets by shaving brass from the carrier to make the ramp longer.  Can't do much before cutting through to the lifter channel.  

 

Doing things to the ramp isn't something I'd do. That part of the mechanism pushes the cartridges in the tube back in so the carrier can clear. If that motion isn't smooth, it won't be nice. That relationship, how those parts work together is what determines the shortest OAL that will work. That is one of the reasons to sleeve the magazine tube for the small calibers, to improve or straighten the relationship of the cartridge that gets pushed back in. 

 

The new 9mm Luger '73 that Taylors has has a shorter carrier in a shortened action. I can't open the Taylors site, some Trump tariff thing I think, but from the pictures I see, that is the design. That does open the possibilities for other short calibers. IMHO a series in cartridges like 38 Long Colt, 45 Schofield, 44 Russian would be interesting. The original chambering for the design beginning with the Henry was in 44 Henry Rimfire. The 44 Henry was 1.345" long. The '73 was introduced with a longer action to accommodate the 44 WCF (44-40). It would be impractical to have specific action length for each caliber, so we have the present standard of 1.6", which is a bit long for most 38 spl. 

 

This is one of the aspects of Cowboy Action that is so interesting, always something to learn or know. 

 

BB 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

3 hours ago, Muley Gil SASS # 57795 said:

 

Colonel Schofield redesigned the top latch from barrel mounted to frame mounted. He didn't build any revolvers. The US Army asked Smith & Wesson to build the Schofield models in .45 Colt. S&W didn't want to lengthen the frame AND they felt the rim on the .45 Colt cartridge was too small to work with their ejection system. S&W designed the .45 S&W cartridge aka Schofield cartridge so that it would work in both their handgun and in the 1873 Colt Single Action Army.

 

There were two contracts for Schofields. The 1st was for 3000 revolvers in 1875 and the second, in 1878, for the Second Model, was for 5000 revolvers. The Schofield revolvers were sold as surplus from the Army in the 1880s. There were only two Schofield models, the difference being the shape of the latch. 

 

This info came from the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 4th Edition, by Suprica and Nahas.

I didn't mean to imply that Schofield himself was a gun maker.  He worked with S&W to modify its existing Model 3 revolver.  And he was a Union  Union brevet brigadier general, not a colonel.