9mm inquiry: questions, dilemma, etc......

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I own 3 great shooting 9mm pistols:  H&K P30L,  S&W Competitor, and CZ-P01.

 

When I use loading data and seat the bullet(s) to recommended OAL, all of them will drop in and freely fall out of the chamber of the H&K.

 

But with the S&W Competitor, some of those same loads will jam the bullet into the lands and won't freely fall out, indicating a tight fit and in some instances,

prevent the slide from going into battery.

 

Now, even worse, is that MANY of those rounds will jam into the lands of the CZ P01 and/or prevent the slide from going into battery.

 

To solve these issues, I've had to seat certain bullets to a deeper position, having a shorter OAL than the H&K.

 

Naturally, I'm using a couple powders with appropriate powder amounts as to eliminate any 'compressed' loads.

 

QUESTION:  Why did the manufacturer cut their chamber throats of varying lengths that created this situation AND.....

have you experienced this situation with your 9mm's.

 

Thanks

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

I would tend to doubt that they would intentionally cut the chambers like that. You might have just had the luck to get two guns that slipped by the QA department. I'd contact the manufacturer and tell them the problem. They might, (should?) offer to fix the problem.

If you have a gunsmith you trust, maybe have him measure the chambers, and if the manufacturers won't take care of it, have him recut the chambers. 

 

Edit: If you don't have Snap Caps, make up a couple Dummy rounds, take them to your LGS and see if they'll let you test fit them into the chambers of similar guns to see if they fit properly.

Edited October 10 by Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770

[Blackwater 53393]

Widder!

 

The first question that comes to mind is does this also occur with factory ammunition?

 

We got a friend over there near ya’ that can fix whatever needs fixin’!!

 

 

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

Widder,

 

I have a friend who is a big HK guy. Years ago, I distinctly remember him mentioning that rounds fired through his HKs weren't great for reloading because Heckler Koch uses a slightly larger chamber size to insure reliability.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10 by TN Mongo, SASS #61450

[Sedalia Dave]

Probably goes without saying but, Bullet profile is going to have a lot of impact. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

SGT Sabre:  Thanks.   As to add to the information, all my empty brass will fall freely into the chambers of all the pistols

and sit correctly in the chambers.   I can actually put a 'primer only' shell in the chamber and fire it in all 3 pistols.

I'm thinking the 'lands' are cut more shallow in each pistol, atleast right in front of the end of the chamber.

 

Cousin Blackwater:  YEA, I thought about taking them down to 'our friend'.    I've tested factory ammo with

Winchester white box 115 gr.,  Hornady Critical Duty and Hornady Defense (124/125 gr) , and DRT 85 grain HP.

They all work perfect in each pistol.

 

Mongo:  I've mic'd cases at the top, middle and bottom to see if there were any variances and couldn't discern any.

But remember, all these cases were resized with the same resizing die and ALL my testing and double checking

leads me to think the 'lands' have no 'lead in' on the S&W and CZ.

 

Example:  Using Sierra 125 gr. JHP, the MAXIMUM OAL to fit the H&K is 1.065.

Same bullet, the Maximum OAL to fit the S&W Competitor is 1.036.

Same bullet, the Maximum OAL to fit the CZ P01 is  1.020.

 

And there are a couple of other bullets that follow the same pattern on these pistols.

 

..........Widder

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

3 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Probably goes without saying but, Bullet profile is going to have a lot of impact. 

 

Hey Dave.

Yea, no doubt you are correct because different bullet shapes are giving me the same issue but with some

variances of OAL.

I'm just wondering if my issues are normal and common, especially with these pistols.

 

I shoot a lot of 10mm (3 different pistols) , 45 ACP (2 different pistols).  and .460 Rowland (3 different pistols) and seem to never have this issue.

Of course, the barrels for those .460 Rolands were all made by the same company.

 

..........Widder

 

[Sedalia Dave]

I’m not surprised that the S&W Competitor has a tight chamber. Not sure why the CZ would though. 
 

 My WB 1911 has had the throat reamed to make sure that a slightly over OAL round will still chamber reliably. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

CZs are known to often have short chamber throats. Some shooters get them reamed. Some bullet manufacturers are changing to 9mm moulds that are not as widely rounded, a little more pointed but still round.  I had one CZ75B that I loaded to 1.065. But with 135gr bullets from various manufacturers load them all to 1.1". 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Gator,

Thanks.  That sounds exactly the situation I'm experiencing............. short chamber throats.

 

The S&W competitor seems to be in the middle range of the H&K and the CZ.   I'll probably

just have the CZ changed a little.

 

One of my favorite 9mm powders is 5.4 gr. of BER-86.    This particular charge doesn't allow me to seat 2 of my favorite

bullets to the appropriate OAL to allow full seating in the chamber.

Those 2 bullets are the 125 grain Sierra JHP and the 124 gr. Nosler JHP 'ASP'.

 

But, I can use my other favorite powder, CFE, in the 4.9/5.0 grain range and seat both of those bullets deeper to help

accommodate appropriate OAL for the CZ.

 

EDIT:  both of those bullets have an OAL of .548, but because they are designed a little different,

varying OAL is needed to correctly fit in the pistols.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Edited October 11 by Widder, SASS #59054

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

It does seem to more commonly be an issue with rn lead bullets. Sometimes when I measure overall length that varies more then usual I'll check and you can see the two bullets have a different rn profile.  

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Widder, I think Dave nailed it on bullet profile. I’ve had just the opposite experience though, where my handload won’t drop all the way into the cartridge gauge, but drops in and falls out perfectly from my Glock barrel. Shoots fine too. 
 

For context, the bullets are Nossler 124 gr JHP. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Get a box of military/NATO spec 9mm.

Load the COAL to that length.

I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die and confirm 

size/fitment in a Dillon case gauge.

I have fired my loads in many handguns 

and full automatics with no issues. 

 

[Rip Snorter]

4 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Get a box of military/NATO spec 9mm.

Load the COAL to that length.

I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die and confirm 

size/fitment in a Dillon case gauge.

I have fired my loads in many handguns 

and full automatics with no issues. 

 

Pretty simple, load a few to loading manual spec and do a "Plunk" test in the actual barrel.  Adjust as needed.  If you load your own, most problems can be easily overcome.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

LUMPY:  The problem is that loading a round specified in the book OR the same OAL as box of military/NATO

will chamber well in the H&K....... but not necessarily so in the S&W and CZ.

 

RIP:  Yea, I've done the 'Plunk' test, which is how I concluded that some bullet styles will 'Plunk' correctly

in the H&K, but not so well in the S&W and CZ. ...... UNLESS I shorten their OAL.   

 

Obviously, the chamber throats are cut different and I was wondering if any of the Saloon Pards had ever experience

this with their 9mm's.   Of course, most folks have only one 9mm and therefore, they would never encounter the same

situation.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited October 11 by Widder, SASS #59054

[Wild Eagle]

My two favorite pistols are CZ and Tanfoglio I have 5 or 6 of them.  Both are known to have short throats.  In addition, I like to load my 9MM ammo a little longer than most (1.150").  I have used a throating reamer to extend it.  If you don't want to do it yourself, Patriot Defense will do it for about $40 plus shipping.  I also had to ream one of my 1911 barrels too.  I like to load 45ACP at 1.250 and didn't want to have to load short for one pistol.

[DeaconKC]

S&W Competition guns are often cut to minimum SAAMI specs and HKs are known for loose chambers. My wife's CZ will feed anything factory I stuff in the magazine.

[Pat Riot]

I’ve owned a dozen 9mm pistols. All of them were Glocks except for a POS Remington R51.

I currently have 3 - 9mm Glocks. I haven’t had any chambering issues with a great variety of manufactured and hand loaded ammunition. So, I really can’t help regarding other manufacturer’s guns.

My loads mostly are:
115gr FMJRN - COL 1.125“

147gr FMJFP - COL 1.100”

124gr XTP - COL 1.060”

 

Honestly, I am only posting to say, please be very careful with overall lengths. Shortening cartridges to match a short chambering could cause extreme jumps in pressure. I’m sure you know this but wanted to mention it. 
Also, I would recommend using a taper crimp for 9mm loads. For me a taper crimp assures a consistent case contour. No bulges that could cause a cartridge to stick in a chamber. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

WILD EAGLE:   thanks for that info.  I may contact them.

 

DEACON:  thanks for that info.  

 

PatRiot:  Your right....."be very careful with OAL".   When I reload for ALL my semi-Auto's (9mm, 10mm, .45 ACP, .460 Rowland)

I actually make sure my powder charges and bullet seating depth do not create a compressed load.

I actually have a method to measure the 'available seating space' of any particular bullet to ensure I never have a compressed

load..... of course, also ensuring all our other safety standards are adhered too.

I particularly watch loading up my .460 ammo.  The .460 Rowland is a beast of a round but I never experience any pressure

signs.

 

Of course, I also use the same safety measures in loading up my .44 mag and HOT .45 Colt ammo.

 

I've blown up 2 guns in my life....... a shotgun and a SIG P320.   BOTH while using factory ammo.   Go figure.

 

..........Widder

 

[ShadowCatcher]

If you're willing to invest some time and a few dollars yo can buy a chamber gauge from Midway that will at least tell

you if all your chambers are cut to appropriate length.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1007250815?pid=645544

 

You can also buy a chamber reamer which will allow you to open up any too short chambers.

 

I have several 9mm pistols, I load a specific bullet to which ever chamber has the shortest chamber/rifling combo,

and since I never load anywhere near upper limits, I don't worry about pressures getting too high.  I usually reload a 147

plated bullet from X-Treme, and load to fit my Colt barrel, since the Beretta and the Springfield a work fine with that length.

 

SC

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Of course, most folks have only one 9mm and therefore, they would never encounter the same

situation.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder - I have no answer regarding reloading for 9mm as I am too lazy and bulk 9mm is too cheap.

 

But who are these people with only one 9mm?

[watab kid]

18 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Widder - I have no answer regarding reloading for 9mm as I am too lazy and bulk 9mm is too cheap.

 

But who are these people with only one 9mm?

i have more than a few 9mm , and like you i shoot factory ammo , to the OP im wondering on OAL of your reloads , 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

ShadowCatcher:  After I check with one of my local smiths, I may have to get that chamber checker.

 

JEDI Creeker:  Those 'one 9mm owners' are those folks I know who always tell me they have a '9mm pistol' 

but rarely shoot it because of ammo cost.   Actually, I know a few 'one owners' that also own no other firearms.

For whatever reason, they chose a 9mm for their 'all purpose' gun. 

 

..........Widder

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

A lot of competitors who reload did not bother reloading 9mm because they could get it pretty reasonably priced before the shortages and price increases a few years ago. Then they wished they were reloading it. 9mm prices are back down to being not too much more then reloading do to increased primer/powder prices.

 

The 9mm factory ammo available works better for modern matches compared to most 38 special factory ammo for SASS matches. Similar to SASS if you're shooting 44-40 or 45 Colt ammo modern competitors save more if they're shooting 45acp vs 9mm. Still many modern action shooters do reload 9mm to get their desired performance. I like 135gr hitech coated bullets and you don't see much of that ammo available.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

LUMPY:  The problem is that loading a round specified in the book OR the same OAL as box of military/NATO

will chamber well in the H&K....... but not necessarily so in the S&W and CZ.

 

RIP:  Yea, I've done the 'Plunk' test, which is how I concluded that some bullet styles will 'Plunk' correctly

in the H&K, but not so well in the S&W and CZ. ...... UNLESS I shorten their OAL.   

 

Obviously, the chamber throats are cut different and I was wondering if any of the Saloon Pards had ever experience

this with their 9mm's.   Of course, most folks have only one 9mm and therefore, they would never encounter the same

situation.

 

..........Widder

 

Try mil spec 124gn FMJ bullets.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

8 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

But who are these people with only one 9mm?

Me 

Glock 19 G/5.

[Blackwater 53393]

Now I feel bad!!  I didn’t know that owning a 9mm was a requirement!!  I have never owned one and have only fired one on rare occasions!! Never really cared for the round.

 

I doubt that I will ever buy one because I have winnowed down my variety of guns to just a few.  I got rid of all the .32s because I didn’t shoot them often enough to justify having them around and three different cartridges was a pain to keep up with.

 

Same goes for my  .44 stuff.  I hardly ever shot my Russian #3s and was offered twice what I paid for them, and the only .44 magnum I had was a Rossi ‘92 that I’d shot exactly once.

 

The .25s and .30 cal stuff never got used and I sold or traded it for guns and ammo that I DO use!

 

I’m down to seven caliber/gauge sizes, (and that sometimes seems like a lot) and have the equipment to reload six of them. (Hatfield shoots .40S&W and I haven’t set up for it yet).

 

Life’s more simple these days. 

[Blackwater 53393]

WIDDER!! You’s s’poosed ta’ laugh at that!!  

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I fixed it.......

 

..........Widder

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

10 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

JEDI Creeker:  Those 'one 9mm owners' are those folks I know who always tell me they have a '9mm pistol' 

 

..........Widder

 

Technically I only have "a" 9mm pistol...

 

Well, and there I have (a)nother one

and over there, there is (a)nother one

- and then here are (a) couple more.

 

And Painted Ladys 9mm carry gun is right here.

Oh and Desert Scorpions 9mm is sitting in my safe.

 

Oops and my 9mm Carbine is over there.

(just bought that).

 

I did just realize that every 9mm that I personally have is a Smith & Wesson

(39 and 59 variants, a couple Equalizers and the new Folding Carbine) (excepting Scorpions Ruger).

Edited October 11 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[bgavin]

1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

I didn’t know that owning a 9mm was a requirement!!  
I have never owned one and have only fired one on rare occasions!!
Never really cared for the round.

 

I doubt that I will ever buy one because I have winnowed down my variety of guns to just a few. 

 

This ^^^^^

[Stump Water]

Widder, while I've yet to experience this with five 9mms from four different mfgrs, you are not alone.  The consensus indicates variance in leade/freebore. 

 

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=107989.0

 

https://montanaxtreme.com/2020/05/beat-the-9mm-short-chamber-blues-with-the-sns-casting-125-grain-round-nose/

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/110109-short-chamber-in-xdm-9mm/

 

https://www.1911forum.com/threads/9mm-chambers.1051605/

 

Edited October 11 by Stump Water

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

11 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

But who are these people with only one 9mm?

Well, I've got three, but none of them are EDCs. 

I've got a FEG Hi Power that my wife got me years ago. It's  primarily a toy, I just pull it out every now and again to plink. 

I bought my wife a 1911 in 9mm a while back, but It doesn't get used much she doesn't carry it, and because my EDC is a 1911 in .45. 

My favorite is a Star Firestar. It's a 1911 style about the size of an Officer's ACP. It lives in a lockbox under the seat of my Jeep. I rarely fire it either. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Stump Water,

WOW.... those threads answered all my questions and also helped me understand why there is a difference

in my H&K, S&W and CZ.   

 

Thank you kindly.

 

..........Widder

 

[Pat Riot]

I used to fix manufacturer’s problems on my own guns. After a drawn out battle with an S&W Performance Center moron I now refuse and will make the manufacturer fix their problem or give me another gun or my money back.  I also had a bout with Remington over an R51 whose designation should have been “POS” not R51. 
 

Widder, I would contact the makers of those guns and have them fix the issue. But then they’ll probably say “Our manual says ‘factory ammo only”.