1866 rifle wonderment and my fix…I hope.

[Matthew Duncan]

About a year and half ago I picked up a used 1866 rifle in 45 Colt that had been blessed by a known gunsmith.  Price was very reasonable.  Used it for the entire 2023 SASS season without any problems.  BUT the first match of the 2024 season…

 

About the fourth shot into the match hammer fell but primer didn’t detonate.  A rare high primer got passed my reload inspection I thought as I thumbed the hammer back and pulled the trigger, primer went off this time.  Yep high primer I thought…until the ninth round failed to fire too but fired on the second attempt.

 

For the next four stages I had two or three rounds (each stage) that wouldn’t fire on the first attempt but did on the second.  Same reloads in the pistols fired on first hammer hit.  Rules out ammo I’m a thinking.  I didn’t change nothing on the rifle between seasons, not a thing!  A few on my posse thought it might be the cold weather because two other cowpokes on the other posse experienced the same problem but not to the degree I had.  I don’t thing it was the weather.

 

A few days after the match I pulled the side plates, links, lever and etc and gave everything a good overdue cleaning.  Pulled the stock off to access the main spring.  Soon after I had purchase the rifle (before the 2023 SASS season) I had replaced the gunsmith hour glass mainspring with a manufactured (Brownell’s or MidwayUSA?) main spring.  I put the original gunsmith main spring back in and headed to the range.  Out of thirty-five rounds I tested, all thirty-five primers detonated on the first attempt.

 

I’ve registered for the Wisconsin State match June 1st and don’t want to use a rifle that hasn’t been “battle” tested.  I have one local match Wolff’s Rowdy Rangers before Wisconsin.  Much to my wife’s displeasure (Shooting on a Sunday) I’ll shoot this Sunday I’ll mosey on down to Deer Creek and see how the rifle cooperates.

 

Yes, yes yes, I have a battle worn, tired, twenty plus year old ‘66 I could take as a backup…

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Mainsprings, especially lightened ones, will get tired and fail after lots of use.  Only getting a year of service out of a new spring is pretty bad.   Did the mainspring have a maker's name associated with it?

 

Cold weather is known to slow down gun actions especially if lubed with an oil or grease that greatly slows down the hammer strike. 

 

Cold weather more commonly affects how powder burns more than how reliably a primer fires when struck.

 

With only a month to go, look for every opportunity to fire that rifle with the same kind of ammo you intend to run the match on.  About all you can do at this point.  Besides also shooting the backup some too.

 

good luck, GJ

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

just spit-balling:

some gunk had a chance to dry on the moving parts and slow things down.

 

we tell our members (I'm newsletter editor) in cold weather to clean firearms and use graphite or sewing machine oil which is very thin.  "Normal" (whatever that means) lube will thicken and slow things down.  so will the sewing machine oil but it's already as thin as water so not as much a problem

[Matthew Duncan]

14 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

…Only getting a year of service out of a new spring is pretty bad.   Did the mainspring have a maker's name associated with it?

I couldn’t guarantee the new spring was new.  Pulled it out of my spare parts bag.  I have a tendency to save used/replaced parts for “just in case”.

 

No maker’s name on it.  Picture might help Identify the manufacturer.

 

 

[Matthew Duncan]

18 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

just spit-balling:

some gunk had a chance to dry on the moving parts and slow things down.

 

we tell our members (I'm newsletter editor) in cold weather…

One of the stages I hosed the action down with WD40, problem remained.  
 

And I just realized cold is dependent on what y’all are accustomed to.  Match was mid to high forties with a brisk wind and overcast skies.

[Sedalia Dave]

WD 40 is a poor gun lubricant, especially in cooler weather.

 

I would use Hornaday 1 Shot. 

[Fast Enuff]

Can't remember who made those slotted main springs  but they were a major brand.  Light leaf springs wear out... regularly.  Before we started using coil springs in all our guns it was pretty common to have the light ones go (either weak or break) every couple of years.  Sometimes only a year if unlucky yes.  Sure you can get one that goes a lot longer but you always have to have a spare.

 

Even heavier springs that aren't lightened to the limit  can just give up and break sometimes.

 

Coil spring kits generally will go many years before either the spring or a supporting part needs replacement and you usually get a little more warning something is up.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

On the 66 you can also drill and tap a hole in the lower tang for a strain screw.  Just like a 73 has.  Then if you are away from home and start getting misfires you can tighten the strain screw to increase mainspring pressure.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A whisper spring from The Smith Shop.  Smith Shop retired several years ago, Online Outpost took their remaining stock.   No more of these remain on  Online Outpost website listings. 

 

I've got at least 2 in my 73s right now - been running them for 10 years.

GJ

Edited April 26 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Sarge]

Another issue is the firing pin cavity in the bolt.  If you have a lot of gunk in the firing pin hole, could be slowing every thing down in cold weather.  Even worse is if the gunk builds up and binds the firing in the forward position.  During the season, I use non-chlorinated brake cleaner to blast it out, then re-lubricate.  At the end of the year, I completely disassemble the bolt and replace the extractor.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I got a used 66 in .44-40.  It had clearly been worked on by someone.   The hammer spring had been so lightened that you could see the hammer falling noticeably slower than on a stock Henry I have in the same caliber.  Also, it had had it's lever safety removed.  (The very early 66's imported by Navy Arms had a 73 style lever safety on them for some reason.

Anyway, I took the gun to Happy Trails of The Smith Shop and asked him if he could return it to more or less factory specs.  He was able to reinstall the lever safety, and the hammer now falls much faster and never fails to make the gun go bang.   Based on how HEAVY a stock 66 hammer spring was when I got an unmodified one a few years later, I'll say that some changes are likely in order.   If/when you want to get an action job done, just don't go "too far" with it.   

Buy the same token, you mentioned that yours is a .45.  I will say that you get some blowback in that caliber, and once I went too long without cleaning, and it caused failure to fire like you described in my Lightning.  After a good cleaning, and flushing out the firing pin with Gunscrubber solved that problem.  So all I say in that regard is, with a .45, keep your rifle clean.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Did your calibrated "thumb gauge" feel any difference in effort to thumb cock the hammer with the 2 different springs?

[Matthew Duncan]

57 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Did your calibrated "thumb gauge" feel any difference in effort to thumb cock the hammer with the 2 different springs?

Thumb has Alzheimer’s.  Seemed to be a bit stiffer but I wouldn’t bet your paycheck on it.

Edited April 27 by Matthew Duncan

[Dusty Devil Dale]

I had a similar thing happen with a '73 hammer leaf spring.   I stored the rifle for a couple months in a pull-on cloth gun sock, inside a safe.  When sliding it into the sock, I evidently  pulled the hammer back to the full cock position and stored it that way.   When I next took it to the range, the hammer fall was visibly slow and the FP would not break about 20% of the primers. 

 

[Matthew Duncan]

6 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I had a similar thing happen with a '73 hammer leaf spring.   I stored the rifle for a couple months in a pull-on cloth gun sock, inside a safe.  When sliding it into the sock, I evidently  pulled the hammer back to the full cock position and stored it that way.   When I next took it to the range, the hammer fall was visibly slow and the FP would not break about 20% of the primers. 

 

Hmmm…you might have provided an explanation.  I keep the rifle stored in gun sock too!

[Kid Rich]

Best way to clean the fp hole in the bolt is to take it apart and use a pipe cleaner with solvent on it to run thru the fp hole in the bolt.kR

[Dusty Devil Dale]

5 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Hmmm…you might have provided an explanation.  I keep the rifle stored in gun sock too!

This particular sock is quite tight.  Normally I check the hammer by feel, to be sure it is down, after I slip the rifle inside.  Apparently this time I forgot to do that, so it was stored with hammer cocked for nearly 3 months.  

[Matthew Duncan]

20 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

WD 40 is a poor gun lubricant, especially in cooler weather.

 

I would use Hornaday 1 Shot. 

My intent on using WD40 was to use the aerosol and cleaning properties to blast away any debris or gunk that may be interfering not as a lubricant.

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said:

My intent on using WD40 was to use the aerosol and cleaning properties to blast away any debris or gunk that may be interfering not as a lubricant.

 

WD-40 is actually a decent lubricant, However it contains a lot of Paraffins. These stay behind and are what makes WD-40 displace water. In cooler temperatures these paraffins thicken and can restrict the movement of the mechanical parts.

[WOODFOX , sass#34179]

Check the headspace ?

["Big Boston"]

On 4/26/2024 at 4:29 PM, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

just spit-balling:

some gunk had a chance to dry on the moving parts and slow things down.

 

we tell our members (I'm newsletter editor) in cold weather to clean firearms and use graphite or sewing machine oil which is very thin.  "Normal" (whatever that means) lube will thicken and slow things down.  so will the sewing machine oil but it's already as thin as water so not as much a problem

 

The toggle link actions and lubrication, I'm still learning on that one. on some of the higher friction points I use grease, however I usually use snowmobile grease. At room temperature it oozes oil, on a hot day it may even liquify completely, but from what I can see it does still lubricate. The rest gets a light coating of Ballistol. There is one product I'd like to try, and that is Armite LP-250 Sear Grease,  it sounds like a good idea. The hammer sear in a 66/73 is pretty much out of the main crud stream. The lifter and lifter cavity are dry, Q-Tip and ISO dry, so that any blowby particles will not gum up the slide. 

Now back to the main issue. I've also experienced the need to increase hammer pressure. The cause seems to be with the firing pin action getting sluggish. IOW, at full cock I'll push on the firing pin and I find that it pushes in and come back out but the movement doesn't seem "free". On the list is a complete tear down, and as already stated, I'm thinking I'll find some dried up and gummy lube. This is on a 2001, Uberti '73, new into my shop, an estate to gunshow to a vendor in our club, to me for repair and then off to the new owner. 

 

Not to steal the thread, but it would not cycle smoothly. I got it working but I needed to shorten the toggle pin and replace the lifter arm, as it didn't seem correct. Remember: "Many gunshow goods have issues, all have history and a story."  

 

BB

[Sedalia Dave]

One thing to check for is for excessive play between the firing pin extension and the hole in the back of the frame. 
 

 It will cause the firing pin extension to drag and eventually bind. Happened to my 66. Snake Oil George made an oversized firing pin extension for it and converted it to a one piece firing pin. 

[Eyesa Horg]

43 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

There is one product I'd like to try, and that is Armite LP-250 Sear Grease

Is it recommended to lube the seat? I put a light finger coat of syn oil in mine in my Marlin, however until I cycle it several times, the hammer will follow the bolt back and get caught under it. After several cycles all is good until the next time I clean it. Using grease really exacerbates the issue and take many many cycles to clear up. I just don't feel right leaving it dry. My apologies for the hijack 

[McCandless]

I had a similar problem on the last day of a major match.  After getting home and going all through the rifle, the culprit seemed to be a worn firing pin.   I replaced it with a hardened, extended firing pin and it's been running fine since.   Just an idea of something more for you to look at. 

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

On 4/26/2024 at 2:29 PM, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

just spit-balling:

some gunk had a chance to dry on the moving parts and slow things down.

 

we tell our members (I'm newsletter editor) in cold weather to clean firearms and use graphite or sewing machine oil which is very thin.  "Normal" (whatever that means) lube will thicken and slow things down.  so will the sewing machine oil but it's already as thin as water so not as much a problem

Dad used sewing machine oil to lube his twin 50 Cal tail guns that had to reliably function at 25,000 feet and something like 40 below zero

[Scarlett]

I will see you in Wisconsin! Good luck on solving the problem and getting confidence in the rifle back! It’s frustrating when something goes awry and it’s hard to pin down. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[watab kid]

scarlett - you going to the state shoot or FITH ? 

 

i was going to suggest balistol as an alternative to WD-40 , i like it better 

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, watab kid said:

scarlett - you going to the state shoot or FITH ? 

 

i was going to suggest balistol as an alternative to WD-40 , i like it better 

I am going to be in Wisconsin, Indiana State, and ND/SD. The second week of May I’ll be at Spring Round Up in EvNsville. I can’t keep up with match names… my brain won’t allow it! 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[watab kid]

OK , good to know may get to see you but if not all those hugs back at ya , travel safe