Baltimore Bridge Down

[Subdeacon Joe]

 

Prayers for the victims. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

They rescued 2 as of last check. Too bad.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

I drove over that bridge lots of times when I was stationed in Baltimore.   How do you not see a pylon?  FBI is involved, so they're looking at all angles.

[Subdeacon Joe]

3 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

I drove over that bridge lots of times when I was stationed in Baltimore.   How do you not see a pylon?  FBI is involved, so they're looking at all angles.

 

Already the conspiracy theories are flying.   

One,  more reasonable,  report said that the ship lost power.  Not unheard of. 

[Cypress Sun]

 

That was the first thing I saw this morning at 3:30 am. It brought back memories the Sunshine Skyway disaster in 1980 which happened in same manner. 

 

The Skyway disaster happened in a blinding thunderstorm that came up phenomenally fast and the harbor pilot got out of the channel too far. This was long before todays sophisticated positioning devices. This appears to have happened in clear weather with unrestricted visibility, seems very odd.

 

When the Skyway was rebuilt, they installed large barriers, called dolphins, in front of the main piers. I don't know why, but I thought that most major bridges near large, international ports would have had these dolphins installed as a protection measure after the Skyway disaster...apparently not.

 

I understand that there was a repair crew doing concrete duct repair and other vehicles on the bridge at the time of collapse. I hope they are found safely but the water is 50 degrees and the accident happened at 1:30 am.

[Dawg Hair, SASS #29557]

17 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

That was the first thing I saw this morning at 3:30 am. It brought back memories the Sunshine Skyway disaster in 1990 which happened in same manner. 

 

The Skyway disaster happened in a blinding thunderstorm that came up phenomenally fast and the harbor pilot got out of the channel too far. This was long before todays sophisticated positioning devices. This appears to have happened in clear weather with unrestricted visibility, seems very odd.

 

When the Skyway was rebuilt, they installed large barriers, called dolphins, in front of the main piers. I don't know why, but I thought that most major bridges near large, international ports would have had these dolphins installed as a protection measure after the Skyway disaster...apparently not.

 

I understand that there was a repair crew doing concrete duct repair and other vehicles on the bridge at the time of collapse. I hope they are found safely but the water is 50 degrees and the accident happened at 1:30 am.

I remember that as if it happened yesterday.  Even after it was rebuilt my wife always got very nervous every time we crossed it.   I pray human loss in Baltimore be at a minimum.

[Subdeacon Joe]

52 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

This appears to have happened in clear weather with unrestricted visibility, seems very odd.

 

 

This seems to show the MV having power issues 

 

 

 

Loss of power, even briefly,  can cause navigation errors. 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

Looks like it still had engine power by the smoke coming out of the stack and steered towards the abutment. Hard to tell, but a ship the large probably doesn't steer real well in such a short distance. What a mess to clean up. I imagine the whole shipping channel will be closed for a bit while the bridge is in the bay. Damn

[Pat Riot]

I wonder if there is Aft Steering capability on those ships? I’ll bet there is and I’d bet it wasn’t properly manned. 
 

 

[Chantry]

Lived down in MD for a couple of years and I have no doubt that I've been on that bridge multiple times.

 

I'm no structural engineer and I understand ships have gotten much bigger sine the bridge was built,  but shouldn't the designers have taken into account the possibility of a ship hitting one of the foundations or was there just a "domino effect" that caused so many spans to fail and collapse into the river?

[Chantry]

16 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Looks like it still had engine power by the smoke coming out of the stack and steered towards the abutment. Hard to tell, but a ship the large probably doesn't steer real well in such a short distance. What a mess to clean up. I imagine the whole shipping channel will be closed for a bit while the bridge is in the bay. Damn

 

The ship weighs nearly as much as a aircraft carrier, but with a lot less engine power

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Dali

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier

 

 

[Henry T Harrison]

Some insurance company is in deep do do

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

When the Skyway was rebuilt, they installed large barriers, called dolphins, in front of the main piers. I don't know why, but I thought that most major bridges near large, international ports would have had these dolphins installed as a protection measure after the Skyway disaster...apparently not.

 

I'm surprised that this bridge wasn't retrofitted with barriers to protect the bridge supports.  That could be the grounds for a major lawsuit.

 

46 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

Some insurance company is in deep do do

 

The state is for not retrofitting the bridge with barrier dolphins.

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Chantry said:

Lived down in MD for a couple of years and I have no doubt that I've been on that bridge multiple times.

 

I'm no structural engineer and I understand ships have gotten much bigger sine the bridge was built,  but shouldn't the designers have taken into account the possibility of a ship hitting one of the foundations or was there just a "domino effect" that caused so many spans to fail and collapse into the river?

 

A cantilever bridge stands because all of how all the spans interact with each other. Remove a support and now the spans can no longer support each other and the whole thing comes crashing down.

 

The same physics that allows cantilever bridges to span incredibly long distances and support massive loads while appearing light and elegant is also their Achilles heal. 

 

Typically bridges of this type are built from the supports outward in both directions. This balances the load over the support and keeps the span from collapsing until it is joined with the other half of the span that is also being built at the same time. 

 

Arch bridges are built the same way. You start both ends at the same time and build out towards the center. If you watch one being built you will often see extra support cables holding the arch up until the two halves are joined together. Once jioned hte extra support cables are no longer needed and are removed.

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Looks like it still had engine power by the smoke coming out of the stack and steered towards the abutment. Hard to tell, but a ship the large probably doesn't steer real well in such a short distance. What a mess to clean up. I imagine the whole shipping channel will be closed for a bit while the bridge is in the bay. Damn

 

1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

This seems to show the MV having power issues 

 

 

 

Loss of power, even briefly,  can cause navigation errors. 

 

 

 

Notice how at the beginning of the video there isn't any smoke and then all of the sudden, the stacks start billowing black smoke. That is likely the point where the engines were restarted.

[Calamity Kris]

2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

This seems to show the MV having power issues 

 

 

 

Loss of power, even briefly,  can cause navigation errors. 

 

 

I don't know about navigation errors as much as inability to navigate.  You need power to move all the parts needed to navigate.  No power, no moving.  Same principle as your power steering car.  No power, no steer,

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Reports are that the ship issued a mayday before the collision.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

Pardon my knowing ZERO about ships... but....

 

Ship speed when problem noted, normal etc.?

 

Time from problem noted to distress call?

 

Time from distress call to impact?

 

No tug boats etc. available or have time to intercept & guide ship to miss the support?

 

Drop anchor(s)to help slow it or would that just wreck the ship?

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

42 minutes ago, Earl Brasse, SASS #3562 said:

Pardon my knowing ZERO about ships... but....

 

Ship speed when problem noted, normal etc.?

 

Time from problem noted to distress call?

 

Time from distress call to impact?

 

No tug boats etc. available or have time to intercept & guide ship to miss the support?

 

Drop anchor(s)to help slow it or would that just wreck the ship?

 

 

 

 

It was only a couple of minutes from the MAYDAY to when the vessel struck the bridge.  Not enough time to get tugs to it. Tugs don't stay with vessels until the reach open ocean.  

 

 

Where it goes off course would be where it lost power and was being pushed by the river.  Dropping anchor is a major event on a vessel that size, half an hour or more.  And, without power they may not be able to do it.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

Thanks, that clears up the basics, not much time between O.K. & Oh %^&*.

 

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Reports are that Baltimore is the largest port for imported cars and light trucks.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

That’s mentioned in this video:
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-container-ship-dali-maryland-port-rescue-disaster-2024-3
 

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

They’re saying that 6 workers are pretty much considered deceased. Sad 

[Subdeacon Joe]

I stand corrected on the anchor...report said that one anchor was deployed,  or an attempt was made to deploy it.

 

Even so, something that massive moving at 8 knots takes a long time to stop. 

 

Other factors- several reports say that her path was well out of the channel right from the start going downstream.  Wind was brisk and on the port beam, so with the huge sail area of those ships it quickly swung to starboard once power and steering were lost. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

6 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

They’re saying that 6 workers are pretty much considered deceased. Sad 

 

Sad indeed.   But with that water temperature that low it was pretty much a given after about 2 hours. 

 

 

I didn't see Biden's little speech,  but my wife did.   She said that when some idjit reporter asked about Iran or something totally unrelated,  he said,  paraphrasing,  "That's completely inappropriate." and walked away from the podium.  Good for him.  

[Rye Miles #13621]

21 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Sad indeed.   But with that water temperature that low it was pretty much a given after about 2 hours. 

 

 

I didn't see Biden's little speech,  but my wife did.   She said that when some idjit reporter asked about Iran or something totally unrelated,  he said,  paraphrasing,  "That's completely inappropriate." and walked away from the podium.  Good for him.  

He also said he’s been on that bridge many times by train and car! Uh sorry Joe no train tracks on that bridge!

[Subdeacon Joe]

39 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

He also said he’s been on that bridge many times by train and car! Uh sorry Joe no train tracks on that bridge!

 

 

Par for the course.  As I said, I didn't see it.  The only things Lisa told me was that he said that the feds would pour money into getting it rebuilt ASAP - which is reasonable, and then duke it out with the insurance company - and that when an idjit asked a stupid question he pointed out it was a stupid question and ended the conference.  There is so little that I like about the guy that I thought I should mention something he did that I see as a positive.

[Still hand Bill]

1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

They’re saying that 6 workers are pretty much considered deceased. Sad 

Unfortunately with the water temp around 50, if they were not found quickly, there was no chance.  Even at that temp your body gets shocked and without a pfd, you might not come back to the surface.  I have watched people go in while racing sail boats and almost not come back up.  That was only a 2 ft drop, not falling from a bridge.  

[watab kid]

i watched this in my early morning hours as well , it was moving faster at impact than the oar boat i had occasion to look at damage in duluth harbor a couple decades ago - it stove in the sheet piling and the land mass behind it for nearly 70 feet with almost no forwar propulsion , actually i was told it was in revese at the time of impact , 

 

these very large objects in motion tend to stay in motion in the direction they are going , its sad they couldn't miss that bridge pylon , im sure there will be multiple inquiries as to what happened , the really sad thing is the loss of life , good that they stopped some traffic , but why on earth they did not evacuate at the mayday ?  

[Cypress Sun]

3 hours ago, watab kid said:

i watched this in my early morning hours as well , it was moving faster at impact than the oar boat i had occasion to look at damage in duluth harbor a couple decades ago - it stove in the sheet piling and the land mass behind it for nearly 70 feet with almost no forwar propulsion , actually i was told it was in revese at the time of impact , 

 

these very large objects in motion tend to stay in motion in the direction they are going , its sad they couldn't miss that bridge pylon , im sure there will be multiple inquiries as to what happened , the really sad thing is the loss of life , good that they stopped some traffic , but why on earth they did not evacuate at the mayday ?  

 

There is no way that the road repair crew could have had time to drop what they were doing, get in their vehicles, start them up and clear the bridge...not even if they were the one's to have received the MAYDAY. In the video, posted by Joe, from the time that the lights go out on the time it hits the bridge is 43 seconds (mol).

I really don't believe that they were able to stop traffic that fast and probably only stopped traffic immediately after the collapse.

 

Although tragic, a bunch of luck happened during this event.

- The fact that it was 1:30 am meant that traffic was virtually non-existent, would have been a different story at 8:00 am with the bridge full of work commuters.

- Two vehicles missed the collapse by a mere 10 seconds. They will forever be glad that they didn't catch that stop light, or whatever...but will always wonder what would have happened if they did.

- The area where the workers were collapsed in a kind of slow motion. I believe that this is what allowed the two survivors to live. The impact of the 185' fall was "cushioned" by the domino effect of the collapse.

- Law enforcement was apparently nearby and closed the bridge off before anyone else drove off the land portion of the bridge into the water or embankment.

 

 

I believe that there will be some new bridge protection requirements proposed in the very near future. Dolphin type protection of the main piers on either side of the shipping channel will probably become a required retrofit. They might even require large ships to have tug assistance through areas with bridges that must be traveled under to get to port. None of it will be cheap and ultimately the taxpayer and/or the consumer will be the one paying for it.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Aside from the tragic and sad deaths this is going to have a huge affect on shipping. You'll be waiting a long time for your orders for whatever. This is the second or third largest port in the country.

[Chantry]

1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

I believe that there will be some new bridge protection requirements proposed in the very near future. Dolphin type protection of the main piers on either side of the shipping channel will probably become a required retrofit. They might even require large ships to have tug assistance through areas with bridges that must be traveled under to get to port. None of it will be cheap and ultimately the taxpayer and/or the consumer will be the one paying for it.

 

I couldn't find the story again, but it was an engineering professor from some fairly prestigious college that said that ANY bridge would have collapsed when a ship of the size of the Dali hits it. The lowest tonnage of the Dali I've read was 95,000 tons with an upper limit,  fully loaded maybe, of 130,000 tons.  Given the reports of maybe 5 minutes between the ship's loss of power and hitting the bridge, I'm not sure that tug boats would have prevented this.

 

Some things we might see going forward:

Ships will only be able to leave inside a certain window when bridge traffic is at a minimum

Preventing vehicular traffic from being on the bridge while the a ship goes underneath (like the old draw bridges)

Combinations of winds above a certain speed and the tide means ships will not be allowed to leave

A hard look at port design and a serious effort to make loading and unloading of these enormous ships take place outside of the bridges.

 

Expect prices of certain things, including ammo, to go up. 

Expect shortages of things imported from Europe, Africa and the Middle East.

It will be weeks, if not months, before all the bridge wreckage is removed from the channel.

It will be years before the bridge is replaced and it might not be in the same spot.

 

[Cypress Sun]

3 minutes ago, Chantry said:

 

I couldn't find the story again, but it was an engineering professor from some fairly prestigious college that said that ANY bridge would have collapsed when a ship of the size of the Dali hits it. The lowest tonnage of the Dali I've read was 95,000 tons with an upper limit,  fully loaded maybe, of 130,000 tons.  Given the reports of maybe 5 minutes between the ship's loss of power and hitting the bridge, I'm not sure that tug boats would have prevented this.

 

Some things we might see going forward:

Ships will only be able to leave inside a certain window when bridge traffic is at a minimum

Preventing vehicular traffic from being on the bridge while the a ship goes underneath (like the old draw bridges)

Combinations of winds above a certain speed and the tide means ships will not be allowed to leave

A hard look at port design and a serious effort to make loading and unloading of these enormous ships take place outside of the bridges.

 

Expect prices of certain things, including ammo, to go up. 

Expect shortages of things imported from Europe, Africa and the Middle East.

It will be weeks, if not months, before all the bridge wreckage is removed from the channel.

It will be years before the bridge is replaced and it might not be in the same spot.

 

 

In Joe's video, the ship is clearly underway with power 43 seconds before impact. Dolphins (barriers protecting the bridge supports) would have probably prevented this accident. Tug boat assistance through the bridge would probably would have prevented the accident.

 

Look at the Sunshine Skyway to see what I mean about the dolphins.

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

Yep. Cargo ship sizes are much larger than when the bridge was built in the 70s. No way it was going to withstand that much weight at 8 knots. I'm sorta surprised the ship stopped at all.......... 

[Chantry]

4 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

In Joe's video, the ship is clearly underway with power 43 seconds before impact. Dolphins (barriers protecting the bridge supports) would have probably prevented this accident. Tug boat assistance through the bridge would probably would have prevented the accident.

 

Look at the Sunshine Skyway to see what I mean about the dolphins.

 

I understand about the dolphins, but were/are they designed to stop a ship the size of Dali?

 

I have doubts about the tugs, I'm not sure there would have been enough time or distance for the tugs to prevent the accident  I also wonder how much the wind and tide may have affected what happened.