Dead Eye, a new cowboy action sport?

[Deadeye Dingus]

Sorry, but I'd still be laying on the ground, tryin' to figure a way to get up!  Runnin', crawlin', jumpin' around aren't in my vocabulary anymore.  Not for this Deadeye! 

 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

As soon as I saw him finish his rifle, while shuffling sideways on rocky ground, and then lay it down pointed down range, get up and run in front of it down range, I quit watching.  Would never want to be on a shooting range with him. 

[Diamond Jake]

Some of these comments should be placed on his YouTube post.  I just looked and a lot of them think that CAS is just as "bland" as his biased portrayal.  Peiople seeing that might never try true Cowboy Action.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Well I said, about right, not completely right. What he described is common but not exclusively. He's not that far off. I also don't think that revolver targets at 7-9 yards instead of 3-6 or rifle targets at 10-12 yards instead of 7-9 is being accurately described when it's refered to as a bullseye match.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Ummm...no.  So many things to criticize, so little time. But watching him struggle to get up and then waddle downrange was the stand-out moment. I'd like to see how he does in the rain.

 

 

[largo casey #19191]

Would need a full crew of EMT's

                                                             Largo

[Totes Magoats]

The entire time I'm trying to watch his video, I'm thinking there are probably only 2 people that would want to shoot this, him and maybe his camera operator.  

 

It's irritating how he depicts Cowboy Action Shooting and he's got 678K subscribers with over 13K views in 8 hours.  

 

Totes

[Travelin Travis]

i am out 

[Texas Maverick]

That is 22 minutes I will never get back. For someone with a low number and at least a decade of shooting SASS he doesn't appear to really know what he is talking about. I also don't see many of us wanting to lie down to shoot at targets. Most of us wouldn't be able to get down or even back up. He is certainly not talking about the current clientele of SASS. He seems to want to try and mimic the 3 gun scenario but I don't see that ever going anywhere. I also noticed a number of safety issues in his video. Like the 170, running down range with his rifles action closed, etc. Good luck trying to sell this to the SASS shooters.

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Would love to see them run a few hundred shooters through...resetting the Star...at the end of a long bay...multi-minute stages...oh how much fun!!!!!!

 

He tried to hide his distain for SASS/CAS...did an okay job.

 

Yeah and after watching him shoot I don't see how he ever took second unless there were only 2 shooters. Even I am faster than he is and I don't place second at big matches. LOL

 

TM

[Sarge]

Yeah, No! Didn't watch the whole thing, but too many safety issues here.  Shooting around barricades. Aren't we already doing that when we shoot through windows?  Sure.  Running 50 or 100 yards to engage targets?  Silly.  Crawling around on the ground to shoot?  Only if someone is paying me a lot of money.  Good luck with that.

[July Smith]

1 hour ago, Texas Maverick said:

Yeah and after watching him shoot I don't see how he ever took second unless there were only 2 shooters. Even I am faster than he is and I don't place second at big matches. LOL

 

TM

It looked like he was shooting cap guns duelist style, so I assume he was shooting Frontiersman.  I can sort of believe a 2nd place category win if there weren't many other frontiersman.

[Cypress Sun]

10 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said:

 I also noticed a number of safety issues in his video. Like the 170, running down range with his rifles action closed, etc. Good luck trying to sell this to the SASS shooters.

 

TM

 

Noticing safety issues started at the 8 second mark with him shooting 2 shots out of the shotgun, picking up his rifle and jacking a round out of the rifle on the 1st cycle of the action.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

It's one thing for him to say he would like stages like that. How any cowboy shooter would think that stages like that could ever be the future of SASS is ridiculous.  I don't see how he could seriously believe it other then hoping to get more views on his channel.

[Texas Maverick]

5 hours ago, July Smith said:

Just out of curiosity, did SASS matches ever look remotely close to scenarios/stages shown in this video?

Yes, I can say that I went to a match in AZ that has to setup their stages right before the match. They setup 3 stages using folding tables and their targets. You shoot 3 scenarios at the 3 stages and then they redo the targets a little and have 3 more scenarios at the same 3 stages. This is because they don't have their own place to shoot and use government land to setup and tear down the same day. It was interesting to say the least but I enjoyed seeing something different since we were on vacation and I wanted to shoot a match out there. I am not sure I would enjoy it if this was the only way to shoot a match but I guess you do what you have to to be able to shoot. I am spoiled by the facilities we have here in Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana. 

 

On another note, some have commented on the having to run a lot in his Dead Eye stages. If you ever shoot HOW in Cheyenne you better have your running boots on. It was a great match but I have never had to move so much in a match. They definitely used all their property to setup their stages. It was like the Olympic marathon of SASS. I would go again but would try to get into better shape before going.

 

TM

 

[Texas Maverick]

2 hours ago, Deadeye Dingus said:

Sorry, but I'd still be laying on the ground, tryin' to figure a way to get up!  Runnin', crawlin', jumpin' around aren't in my vocabulary anymore.  Not for this Deadeye! 

 

They would need a crane at each stage to get me up off the ground and that is after I even figured out how I was gonna get on the ground to begin with. LOL

 

TM

[Too Tall Bob]

Let’s take a step back here. Perhaps the individual’s statement about “Deadeye” being the future of CAS is pushing it a bit. However, the young people out there who are actively shooting are shooting 2 gun and 3 gun matches and doing the things he portrays. If something like this was available perhaps some of them would consider trying it. We older folks may not find the level of activity shown as desirable because - face it - we are older and face physical challenges younger and more physically fit folks do not. Those of you who have criticized his shooting should realize he is showing challenges today’s CAS shooters do not face. As far as his 2 stages of a Cowboy match shown are concerned - he hadn’t shot CAS and his cap guns competitively for many years. Safety issues?  As we see them perhaps. Do you have to shoot the venue? No - but don’t condemn someone because they have a dream to try something new to try to grow the sport. 

[Griff]

5 hours ago, July Smith said:

Just out of curiosity, did SASS matches ever look remotely close to scenarios/stages shown in this video?

5 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

Hell no.

5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Not where I came from... And I came from where "it" all started.

Phantom

Ummm.  you newbies shouldn't speak too soon.  While many of his safety foopahs were not present, many of the elements of his stages were where shooting bays allowed such movement!  If you were involved prior to about 1992/3,  you would have seen shooters climbing aboard horses, wagons, under wagons, etc for shooting positions.  I believe in my mid-40s was when I as a match organizer started feeling the effects of a well-spent, very active youth... and the hardships I was asking of our more "experienced" shooters.  His "future" looks very much like a past that I relished, and thoroughly enjoyed, maybe even miss... a little!  But, am not going to repeat, until I re-incarnate!

 

 

[High Noon Henry]

“Significantly Different”   I reckon so

This may be his future but it definitely isn’t mine.  
Would I shoot his match? No way. 
As PW stated, try it as a side match and see how much participation you get.   

HNH

 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Totes Magoats said:

It's irritating how he depicts Cowboy Action Shooting and he's got 678K subscribers with over 13K views in 8 hours.  

I would venture that was the only purpose for his lame ass video.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Even modern 3 gun has dwindled down. A lot of shooters don't like the shotgun portion and 2 gun is getting more popular.  Some matches are at ranges using pistol bays limited tp 25 yards or so for the rifle. Some might have a bay or 2 that allows 75-100 yard rifle shots. Some have more room and can have rifle targets at several hundred yards. There are a couple of extreme matches that include moving across multiple bays but that's not the norm. Huge variation in what constitutes a modern 3 gun match.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

43 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

No - but don’t condemn someone because they have a dream to try something new to try to grow the sport.

I'm condemning him because he poopoo's SASS/CAS and says this is the future of Cowboy Shooting.

 

He's an ignorant SASS shooter that is arrogant on top of THAT!

 

You think younger folks want 3 Gun with Cowboy guns?? We had a great game called Western 3 Gun (had a cool logo too!!!). It didn't make it. Hate to say it, but MOST young people don't think our guns are all that cool.

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

44 minutes ago, Griff said:

Ummm.  you newbies shouldn't speak too soon.  While many of his safety foopahs were not present, many of the elements of his stages were where shooting bays allowed such movement!  If you were involved prior to about 1992/3,  you would have seen shooters climbing aboard horses, wagons, under wagons, etc for shooting positions.  I believe in my mid-40s was when I as a match organizer started feeling the effects of a well-spent, very active youth... and the hardships I was asking of our more "experienced" shooters.  His "future" looks very much like a past that I relished, and thoroughly enjoyed, maybe even miss... a little!  But, am not going to repeat, until I re-incarnate!

 

 

Yes, the real old days of SASS had folks laying on the ground shooting under a wagon...shooting out of a bathtub...riding a 6' tall rocking horse. Then, it evolved pretty quickly...and for GOOD reason.

 

His use of barricades and paper targets...not so much.

 

But hey folks - it's the FUTURE OF COWBOY SHOOTING!!!!! Going back to the...imagined past.

 

oy...

 

Phantom

[Cypress Sun]

44 minutes ago, Griff said:

Ummm.  you newbies shouldn't speak too soon.  While many of his safety foopahs were not present, many of the elements of his stages were where shooting bays allowed such movement!  If you were involved prior to about 1992/3,  you would have seen shooters climbing aboard horses, wagons, under wagons, etc for shooting positions.  I believe in my mid-40s was when I as a match organizer started feeling the effects of a well-spent, very active youth... and the hardships I was asking of our more "experienced" shooters.  His "future" looks very much like a past that I relished, and thoroughly enjoyed, maybe even miss... a little!  But, am not going to repeat, until I re-incarnate!

 

 

 

Obviously you were there at the beginning Griff. You are one of the few originals that still participate in matches and I have no doubt that the activities that you mention were elements incorporated into some of the stages but was every stage like that?

 

I started in 1997. Come 1998, I was doing two matches almost every weekend for about 5 to 7 matches a month. I shot laying down on a horse blanket about 5 or 6 times, one of those shooting under a wagon. There used to be local matches that had shooting while seated on a buckboard, sitting on a "horse" (55 gal drum w/saddle), shooting while standing (or trying to) on a hump bridge that was suspended from ropes, kneeling behind bales of hay, through windows and jail cells, riding in mine carts while shooting and various other challenging positions. Shot one match where you walked a common firing line for 80 yards reloading pistols, etc. on the way, in the July heat/humidity. I felt bad for the TO's and spotters. 80 yards down and 80 yards back...10 to 20 times...WHAT FUN! Not. Second worst match I ever went to.

 

Some of that stuff was fun 25 years ago on a limited basis, sure as hell wouldn't want to do that today.

If that's the future of CAS, CAS doesn't have much future.

[Diamond Jake]

We had a monthly at Wartrace, and Randy St Eagle was reading the stage instructions and explaining how to get down onto the horse blanket for rifle, then up on left knee for right pistol, followed by on right knee for left pistol...finally someone realized that the match was being held on April 1.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But hey folks - it's the FUTURE OF COWBOY SHOOTING!!!!! Going back to the...imagined past.

 

oy...

 

Phantom

His "version" is what happens when people do not understand historical context and then bastardize it for their own purposes.

 

It also happens because too many (even those who are actually active in our game) think "entertainment" and "challenge" are synonymous.

 

As to his damning use of the word formulaic; most like items use like ingredients - the quality of those ingredients and how you put them together is what differentiates the desirability of those items.

 

A Yugo and a Ferrari use the same "formula"; four wheels, passenger compartment, suspension, etc.

No one would confuse the two.

 

A water color painting done by a pre schooler or a masterpiece by Cezanne use the same pigments, the same brushes, the same "formula" but they are certainly not the same end product.

 

The YouTuber and his like substitute outlandish components and ridiculous extremes for actual creativity.

 

Cutting the head and left leg off of Michelangelos David while adding nipple piercings and purple glitter is not an improvement.

[Griff]

3 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Obviously you were there at the beginning Griff. You are one of the few originals that still participate in matches and I have no doubt that the activities that you mention were elements incorporated into some of the stages but was every stage like that?

 

I started in 1997. Come 1998, I was doing two matches almost every weekend for about 5 to 7 matches a month. I shot laying down on a horse blanket about 5 or 6 times, one of those shooting under a wagon. There used to be local matches that had shooting while seated on a buckboard, sitting on a "horse" (55 gal drum w/saddle), shooting while standing (or trying to) on a hump bridge that was suspended from ropes, kneeling behind bales of hay, through windows and jail cells, riding in mine carts while shooting and various other challenging positions. Shot one match where you walked a common firing line for 80 yards reloading pistols, etc. on the way, in the July heat/humidity. I felt bad for the TO's and spotters. 80 yards down and 80 yards back...10 to 20 times...WHAT FUN! Not. Second worst match I ever went to.

 

Some of that stuff was fun 25 years ago on a limited basis, sure as hell wouldn't want to do that today.

If that's the future of CAS, CAS doesn't have much future.

No, every stage wasn't like that... and for very good reason.  Like me, there were quite a few folks in the mid-30s to mid-40s, but there were quite a few more into their 50's and beyond.  An aging participant base couldn't sustain that level of activity.  And to be fair, a match was made up of stages where there was some movement, but maybe only one or two firearms used, and a few with all 3 guns.  (Only one handgun at the time).  Targets were farther out, smaller and where feasible, spaced farther apart.  And as Phantom mentioned, bath tubs, beds, wagons, horses and such were used, getting onto, under, over and off to complete courses of fire.  Again, stage elements that have all disappeared, for good reason.

 

Actually, I wish him luck... as when his participant base ages, he'll loose them to SASS!  But... as I watched his video, I feel that even he'll become discouraged as several of SASS's current competitors will run rings around him at his own game!  

[Hells Comin]

I vote WE send Phantom to there first match and see how he stacks up against these,  never mind. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Hate to say it, but MOST young people don't think our guns are all that cool.

 

Phantom

That pretty well accurately sums it up. 

[InRangeTV]

Hey y'all!

I run the channel InRangeTV nd the Brutality Matches you're talking about here.   My video was never about replacing SASS, or taking anything away from an already existing sport, but to add more options to the Cowboy Action Shooting sports in general.   As it stands, we already have a vibrant community of Brutality match shooters and I think you'll be surprised to see the uptake we're seeing for "Dead Eye" at the upcoming Brutality matches.

I let my official SASS membership expire quite a few years ago, I don't even remember the number, but it was 58,000 something, so do not be offended by the 9999999999 next to my profile - I just put it there to get through the registration process.

As for this thread, I have always considered the SASS community to be a fun, inclusive group - but this thread is dismaying.   A bunch of you went straight to body shaming, rather than discussing the topic at hand, as well as questioning my shooting "credentials".     I have always competed in FCD and Frontiersman, which was the Category you saw in the video from the traditional CAS match I included in the content as an example.   My "competitive" days in SASS were a decade ago, and those videos were taken after quite a long time away from SASS to use as footage for the video you saw.

At any rate, we'd love to have any of you whom would like to join us, and we're not trying to be SASS, we're being us.   

There's room for a wide variety of shooting sports, and my love for the history and these firearms is while I'm bringing this division to my internationally run matches:

https://brutalitymatches.org

As for some cowboys coming out and running rings around me at my own match, I welcome it.   I'm here to promote the shooting sports, as well as the appreciation for the history and these amazing firearms.  My channel has a lot of "old west" content on it, and this "Dead Eye" division is a natural progression of my interests and for my community.

I've attached a few little mementos from that decade ago, and I have (as I am sure most of you do - tons of this stuff), this was just what wasn't hidden away in some tupperware in the back of my storage container. 

FYI, that year at Bordertown I was 3rd, not 2nd.  I just realized you can't read it in the picture...

Wishing all y'all here the best, even those of you who saw fit to degrade me and my work without even knowing me.

~Karl 

 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

41 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

We had a monthly at Wartrace, and Randy St Eagle was reading the stage instructions and explaining how to get down onto the horse blanket for rifle, then up on left knee for right pistol, followed by on right knee for left pistol...finally someone realized that the match was being held on April 1.

 

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm condemning him because he poopoo's SASS/CAS and says this is the future of Cowboy Shooting.

 

He's an ignorant SASS shooter that is arrogant on top of THAT!

 

You think younger folks want 3 Gun with Cowboy guns?? We had a great game called Western 3 Gun (had a cool logo too!!!). It didn't make it. Hate to say it, but MOST young people don't think our guns are all that cool.

 

Phantom

[Griff]

24 minutes ago, InRangeTV said:

...As for this thread, I have always considered the SASS community to be a fun, inclusive group - but this thread is dismaying....
Wishing all y'all here the best, even those of you who saw fit to degrade me and my work without even knowing me.
~Karl 

Karl,

I don't think you should take it as dismaying... but your video did, in fact, portray SASS as "boring".  As a long time competitor in SASS, even before SASS was organized, that's one thing it's not.  And for the record, not every stage is 10-10-4.  While the majority certainly are, due to the limitations of the guns, hours in a day, it is a physical reality.  You'll find that with multiple stage locations to choose from, there can be quite a variety of scenarios accomplished with small variants of shot choices.  I do wish you well, just wished you hadn't bashed on SASS quite so hard.  Now in my 70's I find it still challenging, and without the time or inclination to practice, something that I can still participate in.  SASS has always been a niche sport/game, providing a venue to allow those that wish to compete at high levels a place to do so, right alongside those that simply wish to shoot their old west guns in something more than plinking at the range.  I suspect you'll find yourself in similar straits.  The changes in SASS that you state as "bad" is simply SASS answering the demands of their customers.  SASS, from its beginnings has always been about the entertainment of its participants.  And SASS participants have responded in kind.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

42 minutes ago, InRangeTV said:

Hey y'all!

I run the channel InRangeTV nd the Brutality Matches you're talking about here.   My video was never about replacing SASS, or taking anything away from an already existing sport, but to add more options to the Cowboy Action Shooting sports in general.   As it stands, we already have a vibrant community of Brutality match shooters and I think you'll be surprised to see the uptake we're seeing for "Dead Eye" at the upcoming Brutality matches.

I let my official SASS membership expire quite a few years ago, I don't even remember the number, but it was 58,000 something, so do not be offended by the 9999999999 next to my profile - I just put it there to get through the registration process.

As for this thread, I have always considered the SASS community to be a fun, inclusive group - but this thread is dismaying.   A bunch of you went straight to body shaming, rather than discussing the topic at hand, as well as questioning my shooting "credentials".     I have always competed in FCD and Frontiersman, which was the Category you saw in the video from the traditional CAS match I included in the content as an example.   My "competitive" days in SASS were a decade ago, and those videos were taken after quite a long time away from SASS to use as footage for the video you saw.

At any rate, we'd love to have any of you whom would like to join us, and we're not trying to be SASS, we're being us.   

There's room for a wide variety of shooting sports, and my love for the history and these firearms is while I'm bringing this division to my internationally run matches:

https://brutalitymatches.org

As for some cowboys coming out and running rings around me at my own match, I welcome it.   I'm here to promote the shooting sports, as well as the appreciation for the history and these amazing firearms.  My channel has a lot of "old west" content on it, and this "Dead Eye" division is a natural progression of my interests and for my community.

I've attached a few little mementos from that decade ago, and I have (as I am sure most of you do - tons of this stuff), this was just what wasn't hidden away in some tupperware in the back of my storage container. 

FYI, that year at Bordertown I was 3rd, not 2nd.  I just realized you can't read it in the picture...

Wishing all y'all here the best, even those of you who saw fit to degrade me and my work without even knowing me.

~Karl 

 

Your videos and explanation of SASS/CAS shoots were not accurate...certainly didn't show what the game of Cowboy Action Shooting is.

 

I don't care what you do on your own time...what "game" you play. You exposed people that may never have heard about SASS/CAS to a false representation of the game.

 

Phantom

7 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Told you it was a cool logo 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

I remember, in I think the late 90's, when SASS was talking about adding Silver Senior and then later Elder Statesman as a category.   We laughed at maybe shooters in their late 60's and then their 70's still shooting CAS.  Well, go to any match, club, State, Regional, National, World and count how many shooters are 60+ years old.  Elder Statesman 70+ is usually a large category.  We even have Cattle Baron 75+, and El Patron 80+, and El Rey, 85+, categories. 

When I started in 1995 at a "very young ago of 51" I could do a lot of the cool, once in a while, stages that had you shooting prone, throwing a knife or a spear, sitting down shooting, running down range, riding on a horse, sitting in a bathtub, carrying saddle bags over your shoulder while shooting, etc:.  

Our shooting sport, fun game, whatever you want to call it,  we continue to keep doing it has changed.  What we do now is what appeals to the most participants.