Dirty primer pockets

[One Gun Jimmy]

On a progressive press it de-primes..re-primes... flares, charges seats, crimps and out is gold.

 

So that means If I wanted to clean the primer pockets I would have to run them all through and take them out one by one then put them in a tumbler then run them again....or take them out one by one and hand clean the pocket then place back in and then continue.

 

Is it necessary to clean them? Google says you 100% have to...Google also says it's 100% a waste of time.

 

I am not talking about rifle calibers, or bench shooting..I am also not talking BP.

 

The only things I have on the radar for now is .38special smokeless powder.

 

9mm will be next 

 

I am new to reloading so I apologize if this is common knowledge but I couldn't find an answer I trust and figure most people here have been reloading a long time so what say the SASS gang.

[Griff]

Not entirely necessary... unless you wanna!  Until I started wet tumbling the only loads I cleaned primer pockets on were target rifle loads...  And I just started wet tumbling this year... that's 45+ years of mostly not bothering!

 

PS:  I use a Lee Hand Tool with a universal decapping die to decap... before I wet tumble.  Gives me an extra look at my brass to discover any flaws, etc.

[One Gun Jimmy]

1 minute ago, Griff said:

Not entirely necessary... unless you wanna!  Until I started wet tumbling the only loads I cleaned primer pockets on were target rifle loads...  And I just started wet tumbling this year... that's 45+ years of mostly not bothering!

I wanna wet tumble I think...SS pins so I would be get it done with no added work there....but pulling each out after the decapping stage or a hand deprimer ext before seems like a huge extra step if it's not necessary. 

[Rip Snorter]

Depends on what the ammo is for and your standards. Personal Defense (when I can't get premium factory) de prime on a single stage, tumble, match head stamps and manually clean primer pockets if necessary on inspection.  Though low volume, hunting rifle rounds all one at a time on the single stage maybe even a little pickier.  A clean kill is a must.

[One Gun Jimmy]

1 minute ago, Rip Snorter said:

Depends on what the ammo is for and your standards. Personal Defense (when I can't get premium factory) de prime on a single stage, tumble, match head stamps and manually clean primer pockets if necessary on inspection.  Though low volume, hunting rifle rounds all one at a time on the single stage maybe even a little pickier.  A clean kill is a must.

This makes all the sense. 

 

I'm just talking main match ammo at this stage.

[Eyesa Horg]

For 12 years I never deprived(DEPRIMED) my 45s or Ellie's 38s. Never had an issue. Went to wet tumbling this year and deprimed them all and ran the pins. The pins are PIA. Will not be depriming again for years! Just make sure you dry them thoroughly after tumbling, I use an old dehydrator.

[Rip Snorter]

6 minutes ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

This makes all the sense. 

 

I'm just talking main match ammo at this stage.

How bad do you want to win, and is the ammo or the skill set a factor.  For competition, I wasn't as picky on some things, but I did match headstamps and "plunk test" every round.  Those boxes were marked Competition with date and load description.  Never a champ, but I placed a time or two - note: not in SASS, other gun sports.  Best I did in SASS was upper middle of the pack, but things were simpler then.

[One Gun Jimmy]

12 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

How bad do you want to win, and is the ammo or the skill set a factor.  For competition, I wasn't as picky on some things, but I did match headstamps and "plunk test" every round.  Those boxes were marked Competition with date and load description.  Never a champ, but I placed a time or two - note: not in SASS, other gun sports.  Best I did in SASS was upper middle of the pack, but things were simpler then.

Ow it's the skill set for me...my ammonupto this point has been factory new...still slow.

 

What I wanna do is get through a match without ammo causing malfunctions.

 

Accuracy in CAS I don't think is a huge factor to reloading as long as they are consistent predictable load

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I shoot only my reloads.  Never clean pockets.  Cowboy (and Wild Bunch) ammo has always gone Boom for the last 15 years.    A pocket has to be REALLY dirty to short-seat the primer or foul the flash hole and prevent successful ignition.   Cleaning pockets is something I save for my match rifle ammo.

 

Much ado about very little in cowboy shooting.

 

good luck, GJ

[Griff]

I can't say that leaving primers in while wet tumbling was the cause, but... I used to let my BP cases soak in a dish soap/ water solution before dry tumbling in a vibratory cleaner.  I've had the ring of the primer stick in the pocket while the anvil & flat of the cup pop out.  Since I wet tumble and decap prior to, I've not had that happen.

 

 

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I have played this game for well over 20 years - loading for myself, my daughter and my wife.

 

Thousands upon thousands of rounds - I have won monthlies, annuals and regionals with my ammo and have never deprimed a case before tumbling yet.

 

Additionally I only dry media tumble my brass - the brass only needs to be "clean" enough to cycle thru the reloader and firearms.

 

Shiny brass is pretty but completely unnecessary for cowboy.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Don’t over think it. 

 

Get a manual(s). Read everything there before they get to the recipes part. A mentor is good to find.  

 

The best manual of all time for our game is Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook. 

[Jim Brown]

If you want to wet tumble then you need to deprime first. Griff showed pictures of what  could (will) happen if you do not.

If you want pretty brass go ahead and wet tumble.

 

If you determine you  need to deprime then clean primer pockets just get extra tool head for press and put decapping die in (Or just use sizing die) Run them through and clean.

 

 

[Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037]

If you're going to wet tumble, deprime first, or, what happened to Griff will happen to you.

 

I haven't cleaned a primer pocket since the mid 90's, only primer related problems I ever had was one Winchester large pistol primer that didn't have an anvil in it that I didn't catch, and a few too hard to set off in a worked over gun.  That includes black powder, subs and smokeless loads.

 

Probably a couple 100K rounds, won lots of things along the way.

 

If you're not shooting benchrest, or X-rings at 1000 yards, not really worth the time to clean primer pockets

[One Gun Jimmy]

1 hour ago, Jim Brown said:

If you want to wet tumble then you need to deprime first. Griff showed pictures of what  could (will) happen if you do not.

 

48 minutes ago, Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037 said:

If you're going to wet tumble, deprime first, or, what happened to Griff will happen to you.

 

What causes this? 

 

I am new to reloading so forgive me but I can't think for the life of me why wet tumbling would cause this

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Google was right.  Total waste of time.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

38 minutes ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

I am new to reloading so forgive me but I can't think for the life of me why wet tumbling would cause this

 

Corrosion at the contact of the primer and pocket brought on by getting cases soaked with cleaner solution, then allowing cases to dry on their own, perhaps with some cases inverted which prevents solution from draining out well.    Fairly rare occurrence.   And if it happens, an easy-out will pull the ring of primer brass out of the pocket real quickly.   So, even less to worry about than you might think.   If you clean wet, be ready for a few side effects.

 

good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

4 hours ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

Google says you 100% have to...Google also says it's 100% a waste of time.

 

It ain't the search engine's fault.  Search engine results about reloading issues simply come from the SOMETIMES unreliable personal opinions of folks posting things on internet forums.   Best if you trust information from PERSONS who you know you can trust.  

 

How do you find them?   Start with all the persons you listen to, and when your experience shows that they don't know up from sideways, cross one off the list. 

 

Lacking that, as mentioned above, the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is a renowned source of trustworthy, experiential, well-edited information.

 

good luck, GJ

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

 

 

What causes this? 

 

I am new to reloading so forgive me but I can't think for the life of me why wet tumbling would cause this

Corrosion from the water. 

Joe has just covered wet tumbling, so I’ll just add a bit more about the other situation where water is introduced as mentioned by Griff. 
 

After shooting rounds loaded with black powder, the empty cases need to be soaked in water to rinse the corrosive residue of BP. Most shooters drop them into a jar of water at the unloading table where they remain until getting home. It’s not necessary to soak for longer than it takes to drive home where they’re then rinsed with fresh water. 
 

I’ve left mine in water for as long as 3-4 days when traveling out of town for a shoot, but they get rinsed and set out to dry within hours of returning home. I dry tumble with spent primers in place. 
 

In 14 years of shooting real black powder (or smokeless), I’ve never cleaned a primer pocket nor had a primer separate. Perhaps I’ve been lucky. The only caveat I have to add is that my BP rounds are pistol caliber only as opposed to rifle rounds, which is the extent of my experience. 
 

I’ve answered a question you didn’t ask except to flesh out how water is otherwise used in cleaning. Now you know more than you ever wanted!  
 

[One Gun Jimmy]

It seams crazy to me that wet tumble...immediately into a dehydrator...then decapped would be enough time for corrosion to this degree. 

 

But. Sounds like some have seen it in person so I'll head the warning. 

 

So let's  forget about cleaning primer pockets.

 

I was leaning towards no anyway and the 100+ combined years thst have already chimed in is enough. 

 

So next question is, if I am not gonna clean the pockets....Is there even a need to wet tumble?

 

I can save on a dehydrator and a dry tumbler is cheaper. 

 

Thoughts?

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

27 minutes ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

It seams crazy to me that wet tumble...immediately into a dehydrator...then decapped would be enough time for corrosion to this degree. 

 

But. Sounds like some have seen it in person so I'll head the warning. 

 

So let's  forget about cleaning primer pockets.

 

I was leaning towards no anyway and the 100+ combined years thst have already chimed in is enough. 

 

So next question is, if I am not gonna clean the pockets....Is there even a need to wet tumble?

 

I can save on a dehydrator and a dry tumbler is cheaper. 

 

Thoughts?

If you want to wet tumble go for it. Brass will be pretty for one shot. Then once you get home wet tumble again. Some say the shiny brass is easier to find in grass but, depending on your powder choice, caliber and load it may be dirty the instant the gun goes off. As others have said, the brass only needs to be clean enough to not gum up your loader. Not a high volume shooter any more but in the past shot perhaps 25-30 K per year between cowboy, 3 gun, IDPA, IPSC and USPA. Never saw the need to wet tumble or deprime and clean the pockets. Some brass loaded 10-12 times, no issues. One other thing, when working up your load, DON’T sell accuracy short. While we are not putting 10 rounds in one hole at 100 meters, you should be able to slow fire either rifle or pistol (from a rest if needed) into one small ragged group at match distance. This in effect will increase the available area of the target when shooting at speed as your bullets will hit to POA without you having to compensate for flyers or other variables. While I am not a super accurate shooter, in practice when dumping on a single target all 10 rounds will be in a group of about 2-3 inches, from rifle and pistol. Satisfactory but not perfect. 
Enjoy the ride and maybe we’ll get together and shoot sometime. 
    
Gateway Kid

[Orient Express]

There are potential health hazards with dry tumbling as there is lead dust in the air when you open the lid. I found the benefit of dry tumbling is I used to add polish to the metal dry media and it left the brass lubricated for the press. Whereas I now wet tumble and even adding wash & wax it is not as lubricated.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

People who say wet tumbling is a PITA are just doing it wrong, IMHO.  It is MUCH faster and easier and healthier than dry tumbling.  I deprime before tumbling and with my method have never -- that's right, NEVER -- encountered a pin in cleaned brass.  And for no extra effort, the inside of the case is as clean and shiny as the outside, and so is the primer pocket.  Does it matter?  Who cares -- it is MUCH EASIER, FASTER AND HEALTHIER than dry tumbling.

[Purly SASS # 57438]

[Purly SASS # 57438]

Lee APP press. Works great for removing primers.

[Jim Brown]

8 hours ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

 

 

What causes this? 

 

I am new to reloading so forgive me but I can't think for the life of me why wet tumbling would cause this

Basically corrosion from the water and primer residue.

 

It will not be a lot but it will happen

[Yusta B.]

12 hours ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

On a progressive press it de-primes..re-primes... flares, charges seats, crimps and out is gold.

 

So that means If I wanted to clean the primer pockets I would have to run them all through and take them out one by one then put them in a tumbler then run them again....or take them out one by one and hand clean the pocket then place back in and then continue.

 

 

You could buy a spare tool head and a universal decapping die and not have to pick the cases out by hand. That's the way I do it.

[Orient Express]

I have a Lee universal decapping die on another tool head. If I use it with uncleaned BP brass will the BP residue cause problems? I usually use it for uncleaned smokeless brass but never with BP brass as I think it will somehow cause issues.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

Nope.....I've never deprimed and cleaned primer pockets in any cowboy ammo I've loaded in 13 years. I've done it on occasion with rifle hunting rounds but not often. First off I dry tumble and media will get into the primer hole which is a pain. So now as I'm loading I have to look for that and punch out the media before priming. Nope not worth it in my opinion.

 

As for brass tumbling I have to chuckle on some of these reloading sites. People constantly asking what they can do to get their brass with a mirror shine. Tumbling is to remove dirt so as not to skratch your dies when loading. In all my years of shooting I've never had superior groups with brass that was shinier then others, nor did anyone at the range ever come up and say my your brass is pretty.....

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

After you have been reloading a while you will develop your own process.  Some folks deprime and tumble (wet or dry), some clean primer pockets, some don't.  I tumbled brass once and didn't see the point.  Now I deprime by hand, inspect the pockets as well as the entire case, and clean the pocket if it looks too dirty.  Not the fastest way to do it, but I don't shoot more than 2,000-2,500 a season now. 

[Scarlett]

12 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Don’t over think it. 

 

Get a manual(s). Read everything there before they get to the recipes part. A mentor is good to find.  

 

The best manual of all time for our game is Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook. 

And this new release! 

Captain Baylor's Big, Bad Book on Cowboy Action Shooting https://a.co/d/bcqqJpo

 

I shoot Frontier Cartridge with APP. I soak my brass at the match, rinse/dry it before

traveling home, separate my 32 HR from my 38Spl and wet tumble. I’ve never deprimed before tumbling (wet or dry) I use the hot SC Sun to dry it all out. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for Creeker you betcha.  30 years playing this game.  Have NEVER cleaned a primer pocket.  I have better uses for my time.  Like ICE CREAM or Glazed Donuts or > > > >

 

PLUS ONE for Scarlett (Almost).  I load APP for EVERYTHING.  Toss all my fired brass (MagTech shotgun too) inna bag at the range.  Take it all home inna bag, toss ALL the brass inna small sink of tap hot water and a goodly splash of White Vinegar.   Thirty Minute Soak.  Oven Dry then Dry tumble for 30 minutes.  Lugging some Jug or Jugs of water around a match > > Meh. 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Just a little add-on, many wet tumbler’s tout how clean the inside of the case is. Since I have never been asked to show someone the inside of my cases, and you can’t see in there once it’s loaded anyway what is the point? Besides once it goes bang it will be blackened and dirty once again. Meaning the only time it looks great is just before reloading. 
Leaving with a real question here. 
What do you do with the blackish water when you finish tumbling? Down the drain probably violates clean water laws. On the lawn leaves the very same lead residue that dry would for kids, pets and other animals to be exposed to. In your garden means future lead ingestion through your vegetables. At least with dry I can use

 the media multiple times then bag it once for disposal at the dumps hazmat section, like paint, solvents other chemicals. 
BTW my lead level last May was 4.0 down from 5 years previous of 4.2. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Shawnee Hills]

My opinion is that it's just not necessary for CAS loads.  The little bit of carbon left in the primer pockets from the previous loading won't be a problem during the reload.  In a former life I loaded thousands of .45 ACP and 38 Super for IPSC and never had a problem with dirty primer pockets.  I did wet tumble my 45 Colt brass when I first started CAS but the case mouth tended to stick to the powder funnel of the Dillon.  Dry tumbling eliminated that issue.

 

I do wet tumble with pins (never had one stuck in a flash hole) after depriming in an old Rockchucker for all precision and hunting rifle loads.  For those, they're all about accuracy and I'm looking to reduce as many variables as possible for consistency.  While accuracy is important in our game, we simply do not need to be as concerned about it as in some other shooting disciplines.

 

 

[Griff]

As I said, those primer rings I found left in brass were from rifle loads... once with a .30-30 round, and as pictured, several of my .40-90SBN loaded with Black and toted home after a 3 day match and probably sat in the water/soap mixture for a couple of weeks.  Yes, a rare occurrence, and while not difficult to correct, if you don't catch it before the brass is in the loader... it's a PITA.

 

As far as only dry tumbling after shooting BP, which I did from 1986 to 2023, there's a residue left inside the case that becomes a dry ash like substance that flakes off the inside of the case as it's sized down to correct diameter.  I would load a case in the Dillon, decap, size and reprime and have to take the case out of the Dillon dump the ash and return the case to station #1.  Adds time to reloading... plus, not all the residue would come out.  Since primers don't contain lead, and theoretically, you aren't leading the inside of your cases, the dirty water is contaminated with carbon ash... a common enough ingredient in fertilizer... IMO.  (I'm neither a chemist nor have I portrayed one on TV)...   But, I still wash my hands after any operation involving reloading.