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Do many of you place your first fired pistol on the table


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11 hours ago, watab kid said:

only if its written into the stage directions - otherwise i think it should be a P at best or a DQ at worst , im not a fan of gamers and that reeks of the bent , i get it that if its OK in the rules its OK but , some of these rules seem to lend to the gamers , now if there is an exception for an elderly shooter at a monthly match im all for keeping them shooting as long as possible 

Gamers are people who want to know the boundaries they’re required to respect so they can shoot the stage as efficiently as possible within those boundaries, nothing more. There are a variety of reasons that some resent ‘gamers’ but since none of those reflect well on the resenters I won’t list any of them.

 

signed,

Captain ‘Gamer’ Bill Burt

7 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Which rules would those be?? <_<

 

The default rule (quoted above) applies to EVERYONE.

When the last shooting string of the stage is 10 revolver shots, both revolvers are (eventually) reholstered to head to the ULT.

REF: RO1 p.23 & RO2 p.7
BTW...They start out holstered from the LT to the stage whether they are staged before the "beep" or drawn from leather ATB.

 

I respectfully don’t agree with that reasoning regarding returning to leather. It’s just one more opportunity to get a P with no benefit I can see. It seems to me returning a gun to where it started from ATB should always be an option unless there’s an articulable reason not to, such as not restaging a rifle and then moving downrange of it.

 

Just my opinion and possibly not worth the electrons expended writing it.
 

I also don’t agree with a lot of other things in life but I’ve learned to live with them.

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And that's why you will always have the option from me to return a staged firearm to where it was staged and with pistols to holster after shooting. I'm all about options, as ya know. If I made ya stage it on the table, I'm going to give you the option to restage it there. Just how I am. :D

Now, as far as the laying down of the first pistol on a pistols last string; for me... never. I've trained myself to go back to that ever-so-small holster opening after firing, why in the world would I want to screw that up for myself? And you know, I can sure screw some stuff up!

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29 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

And that's why you will always have the option from me to return a staged firearm to where it was staged and with pistols to holster after shooting. I'm all about options, as ya know. If I made ya stage it on the table, I'm going to give you the option to restage it there. Just how I am. :D

Now, as far as the laying down of the first pistol on a pistols last string; for me... never. I've trained myself to go back to that ever-so-small holster opening after firing, why in the world would I want to screw that up for myself? And you know, I can sure screw some stuff up!

I like that as a stage convention. 

 

"Firearms may always be returned to where they were originally staged unless stage instructions direct otherwise.  Pistols may always be holstered at the end of the pistol string unless stage instructions direct otherwise.  Failure to do so may be remedied before the next shooting string." 

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When I remember. It can save me 1/2 second. But, occasionally I'll remember halfway to my holster, & then my brain reverts to the table. As you can imagine, the "scenic route" to the table doesn't save any time.

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16 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Gamers are people who want to know the boundaries they’re required to respect so they can shoot the stage as efficiently as possible within those boundaries, nothing more. There are a variety of reasons that some resent ‘gamers’ but since none of those reflect well on the resenters I won’t list any of them.

 

signed,

Captain ‘Gamer’ Bill Burt

I respectfully don’t agree with that reasoning regarding returning to leather. It’s just one more opportunity to get a P with no benefit I can see. It seems to me returning a gun to where it started from ATB should always be an option unless there’s an articulable reason not to, such as not restaging a rifle and then moving downrange of it.

 

Just my opinion and possibly not worth the electrons expended writing it.
 

I also don’t agree with a lot of other things in life but I’ve learned to live with them.

im not against those that look to efficiently shoot a stage , i never meant to imply that , i just think when a stage is written all should shoot it the same , i have no skin in this fight as im not a competitor for any that are looking to be top shooter - at 73 im just trying to still be able to shoot without causing a posse undue delays these days say what you want there are those that try to take an unfair advantage - i could care less , ill gladly hand them the trophy while smiling , 

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4 hours ago, watab kid said:

im not against those that look to efficiently shoot a stage , i never meant to imply that , i just think when a stage is written all should shoot it the same , i have no skin in this fight as im not a competitor for any that are looking to be top shooter - at 73 im just trying to still be able to shoot without causing a posse undue delays these days say what you want there are those that try to take an unfair advantage - i could care less , ill gladly hand them the trophy while smiling , 

I understand, and partially agree. I think everyone should have the option to shoot it the same way. But gamers are going to pay attention to the little things that save time.


For example, shooter starts with rifle, instructions say staged on left table then move to shotgun staged on the center table. You stage your rifle in the center of the left table, I stage mine on the right, saving myself a step. You could have done the same but didn’t.

 

Instructions say shotgun is on the center table, but allow movement. You shoot all four at the center table and restage it there. I shoot the first pair there, but shuck on the move to the right table and shoot the second pair there. You could have done that but didn’t. 


Now it’s pistols, rules allow placing on the table or reholstering. I place my first one on the table, you reholster.
 

Everything else we do exactly the same at the same speed, but I win the stage. Now I’m called a ‘gamer’ and resented. But pretty much never will the gamer criticize you for being less efficient.

 

Nothing I did violates the rules or the stage instructions, so what’s the objection? Because you didn’t care about winning I’m not allowed to care either? Or maybe you didn’t think of those things so I can’t either?

 

Thank about it Pard. A true gamer isn’t looking to break any rules, they’re just thinking through the options carefully and choosing what’s most efficient for them, which is something every shooter can do if they choose to.

 

Someone breaking the rules isn’t a gamer, they’re a cheater, totally different.

 

It is a timed competition and like it or not a significant number of people approach it as such.

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If you think that "gamers" should shoot the stage a certain way, then write it that way. Stipulate what gets done and where. If you think folks that take advantages in stages where specific guidance is not given are gamers, then you'll just have to feel that way. BTW, if your stages are written to keep the gamers in line, you'll eventually lose folks and, gamers or not, they'll stop showing up. Oh yeah... CBB is a big gamer... but he's my bud so I guess I'll keep him. :P

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A couple things to remember. 

A pistol that starts out in the holster is considered "in hand" until it is returned to the holster. That means no matter where you put it whether its on a table or on the ground it is still considered "in hand". Say you miscount and only fire 4 on your first pistol and lay it on the table. When you draw that second pistol and cock the hammer, you've earned a P unless you're in the Gunfighter or B-Western category.

   I holster every time. I shoot double duelist and it's easier for me though.

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6 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I understand, and partially agree. I think everyone should have the option to shoot it the same way. But gamers are going to pay attention to the little things that save time.


For example, shooter starts with rifle, instructions say staged on left table then move to shotgun staged on the center table. You stage your rifle in the center of the left table, I stage mine on the right, saving myself a step. You could have done the same but didn’t.

 

Instructions say shotgun is on the center table, but allow movement. You shoot all four at the center table and restage it there. I shoot the first pair there, but shuck on the move to the right table and shoot the second pair there. You could have done that but didn’t. 


Now it’s pistols, rules allow placing on the table or reholstering. I place my first one on the table, you reholster.
 

Everything else we do exactly the same at the same speed, but I win the stage. Now I’m called a ‘gamer’ and resented. But pretty much never will the gamer criticize you for being less efficient.

 

Nothing I did violates the rules or the stage instructions, so what’s the objection? Because you didn’t care about winning I’m not allowed to care either? Or maybe you didn’t think of those things so I can’t either?

 

Thank about it Pard. A true gamer isn’t looking to break any rules, they’re just thinking through the options carefully and choosing what’s most efficient for them, which is something every shooter can do if they choose to.

 

Someone breaking the rules isn’t a gamer, they’re a cheater, totally different.

 

It is a timed competition and like it or not a significant number of people approach it as such.

 

Thank You Captain Bill Burt!!!!  B)

 

 

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6 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I understand, and partially agree. I think everyone should have the option to shoot it the same way. But gamers are going to pay attention to the little things that save time.


For example, shooter starts with rifle, instructions say staged on left table then move to shotgun staged on the center table. You stage your rifle in the center of the left table, I stage mine on the right, saving myself a step. You could have done the same but didn’t.

 

Instructions say shotgun is on the center table, but allow movement. You shoot all four at the center table and restage it there. I shoot the first pair there, but shuck on the move to the right table and shoot the second pair there. You could have done that but didn’t. 


Now it’s pistols, rules allow placing on the table or reholstering. I place my first one on the table, you reholster.
 

Everything else we do exactly the same at the same speed, but I win the stage. Now I’m called a ‘gamer’ and resented. But pretty much never will the gamer criticize you for being less efficient.

 

Nothing I did violates the rules or the stage instructions, so what’s the objection? Because you didn’t care about winning I’m not allowed to care either? Or maybe you didn’t think of those things so I can’t either?

 

Thank about it Pard. A true gamer isn’t looking to break any rules, they’re just thinking through the options carefully and choosing what’s most efficient for them, which is something every shooter can do if they choose to.

 

Someone breaking the rules isn’t a gamer, they’re a cheater, totally different.

 

It is a timed competition and like it or not a significant number of people approach it as such.

Way better said than I would have, (also nicer).

Not as fast in movement as I once was, so any positional efficiency that I can think of is usually a good idea, WITHIN THE RULES!

If another chooses to shoot a different way WITHIN THE RULES that is their business, just gets a little annoying that I am supposed to play like they do or face their resentment. In example....

Four targets, R1 x 2, R2 x3, R3 x3, R4 x 2, no double taps, round count stage any order for engagement.

Some shot it R1, R2, R3, R4, R1, R2, R3, R4, R3, R2. Works perfectly well and within the rules

Some shot it R1, R2, R1, R2, R3, R2, R3, R4, R3, R4 Also works

I shot it R1, R2, R3, R4, R3, R2, R1, R2, R3, R4 (continuous Nevada sweep), Why make things harder than necessary?

If that makes me a gamer (I proudly am, see the tag line) so be it.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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7 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Way better said than I would have, (also nicer).

Not as fast in movement as I once was, so any positional efficiency that I can think of is usually a good idea, WITHIN THE RULES!

If another chooses to shoot a different way WITHIN THE RULES that is their business, just gets a little annoying that I am supposed to play like they do or face their resentment. In example....

Four targets, R1 x 2, R2 x3, R3 x3, R4 x 2, no double taps, round count stage any order for engagement.

Some shot it R1, R2, R3, R4, R1, R2, R3, R4, R3, R2. Works perfectly well and within the rules

Some shot it R1, R2, R1, R2, R3, R2, R3, R4, R3, R4 Also works

I shot it R1, R2, R3, R4, R3, R2, R1, R2, R3, R4 (continuous Nevada sweep), Why make things harder than necessary?

If that makes me a gamer (I proudly am, see the tag line) so be it.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

I am very analytical when shooting. There's free time on most stages, just have to find it. There's no time gained when placing pistols on the table when a shooter is good at bolstering. 

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11 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

A couple things to remember. 

A pistol that starts out in the holster is considered "in hand" until it is returned to the holster. That means no matter where you put it whether its on a table or on the ground it is still considered "in hand". Say you miscount and only fire 4 on your first pistol and lay it on the table. When you draw that second pistol and cock the hammer, you've earned a P unless you're in the Gunfighter or B-Western category.

   I holster every time. I shoot double duelist and it's easier for me though.

I dont believe that’s correct. Pistol is safe to leave your hand with hammer down in spent case. 
 

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6 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I dont believe that’s correct. Pistol is safe to leave your hand with hammer down in spent case. 
 

I believe TW is correct. I’m on my phone and don’t have time to look it up but two loaded pistols ‘in hand’ with one cocked is a no no unless you’re BW or GF. If I’m wrong I’m sure an Instructor will chime in and point us in the right direction.

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5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I dont believe that’s correct. Pistol is safe to leave your hand with hammer down in spent case. 
 

It is correct. Look at the SASS defined term of "in hand" then look at who all can have 2 loaded pistols in hand. Therefore if a non gunfighter or b-western shooter leaves a pistol on the table that started out holstered with a round in it, they will receive a P as soon as the 2nd pistol is cocked for shooting out of category. 

The shooter has until the 2nd pistol is cocked to correct the situation.

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

It is correct. Look at the SASS defined term of "in hand" then look at who all can have 2 loaded pistols in hand. Therefore if a non gunfighter or b-western shooter leaves a pistol on the table that started out holstered with a round in it, they will receive a P as soon as the 2nd pistol is cocked for shooting out of category. 

The shooter has until the 2nd pistol is cocked to correct the situation.

By the way, it is a progressive penalty. Once is a P, twice is a sdq, three times is a MDQ.

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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

It is correct. Look at the SASS defined term of "in hand" then look at who all can have 2 loaded pistols in hand. Therefore if a non gunfighter or b-western shooter leaves a pistol on the table that started out holstered with a round in it, they will receive a P as soon as the 2nd pistol is cocked for shooting out of category. 

The shooter has until the 2nd pistol is cocked to correct the situation.

In hand is when it’s out of holster, or not in contact with prop

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2 hours ago, Assassin said:

I am very analytical when shooting. There's free time on most stages, just have to find it. There's no time gained when placing pistols on the table when a shooter is good at bolstering. 

If all goes well you are correct. But…..miss the holster and have to make 2nd attempt, or worse, drop the gun. I’ve never missed the table! 

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26 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Hang on, I need some popcorn.

I’ll be interested to see if PWB chimes in. 
I think if gun is on table with a live round in it you are ok having other gun out. But I could be wrong! 

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Quote

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged.

SHB p.44

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Best way to avoid any "interpretation discussions" during a match regarding application of the "in hand" definition is learn to count to FIVE (5).

 

                                                                                                five.jpg

 

 

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BTW...There are no penalties incurred if a MALFUNCTION is declared except for any MISSES for "unfired round(s)" if not made up.
(...or any 
dropped firearm/170º violations)

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I do not holster without looking, but I do put my pistol on the table while keeping my eyes on the target. Everyone is different. When I do go to the table it works for me.

I wish I could do that.  I agree fractional seconds add up.  I always start with great intentions, when I have a choice to shoot revolvers last, to set the first one on the table.   But somehow, when the beep occurs, my attention focuses on the shooting, and my best strategic intentions seem to escape me. At the end of the stage, I realize  I once again fell into my reholster reflex mode. 

 

I think there is something to be said for practicing doing things exactly the same way every time.   But those fractional seconds and podium opportunities do get away by doing that ( But not the fun!)   

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OK , ill not argue with those that look for the better way to shoot the stage - just follow whats written , and if options are given take all the advantage they offer , ill never complain , ive learned a lot from good shooters that read the stage right , ive also seen those that read between the lines and take an unfair advantage because the marshal didnt call the indiscretion ...ill drop it here as im not looking to win the grand prize at any match anymore , i just want to have fun with good friends , may the best person win  - ill applaud 

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Learn something new everyday! I reckon I just never thought of having 2 LOADED pistols out at once!  As PWB SAID, learn to count to 5!

 

But now this begs the question, stage calls for pistols to be staged.  Shooter, TO, counters all forget and shooter starts stage with pistols holstered. Shoots rifle, shotgun, all good. Gets to pistol location, everyone now realizes pistols are holstered instead of staged. Shooter pulls both, stages them, then picks one up and finishes stage. is a P earned for having 2 in hand at one time? 

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40 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Learn something new everyday! I reckon I just never thought of having 2 LOADED pistols out at once!  As PWB SAID, learn to count to 5!

 

But now this begs the question, stage calls for pistols to be staged.  Shooter, TO, counters all forget and shooter starts stage with pistols holstered. Shoots rifle, shotgun, all good. Gets to pistol location, everyone now realizes pistols are holstered instead of staged. Shooter pulls both, stages them, then picks one up and finishes stage. is a P earned for having 2 in hand at one time? 

 

o The competitor shall not have two loaded revolvers in hand at once. (This may be corrected before cocking either one without penalty.)

SHB p.6

 

- Only Gunfighters and B-Western categories allow two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time. This may be corrected in regard to any other categories before cocking either one without penalty.

SHB p.14

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13 hours ago, Hoss said:

If all goes well you are correct. But…..miss the holster and have to make 2nd attempt, or worse, drop the gun. I’ve never missed the table! 

Until you place it on the table and it breaks the 170. I've seen it happen several times.

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On 7/18/2023 at 5:05 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I


For example, shooter starts with rifle, instructions say staged on left table then move to shotgun staged on the center table. You stage your rifle in the center of the left table, I stage mine on the right, saving myself a step. You could have done the same but didn’t.

 

 

 

This whole post was well stated Capt BB.

 

I might also add that just because stage instructions might say....'Rifle staged on left table', doesn't 

necessarily mean that the rifle has to be 'shot' from left table.

 

There have been times in this type situation that I would grab my rifle up at the beep and move over to

the next shooting position because the particular stage design would help me in my transitions and 

movements.

 

YES, I have also been known as a gamer.....although I am also 72.

 

..........Widder

 

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My answer to the OP question is yes and no.  

As a squaw paw shooter @Eyesa Horg :ph34r:if I can move to the pistol shooting position and draw/transition my left gun then I will restage on the table and while doing so draw the right one.  

If the movement dictates drawing the right first then usually that goes back to leather while I am drawing and presenting the left gun tot he right hand.  

 

The key to safely staging the first revolver is to PUT it down, do not drop it from 4" above the table, put ti where you want it so it stays and does not fall or break the 170.  

 

Practicing and having the option and knowing you are going to do it does save a fraction of a second and as CBB(I believe) said those tenths add up. 

 

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2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

This whole post was well stated Capt BB.

 

I might also add that just because stage instructions might say....'Rifle staged on left table', doesn't 

necessarily mean that the rifle has to be 'shot' from left table.

 

There have been times in this type situation that I would grab my rifle up at the beep and move over to

the next shooting position because the particular stage design would help me in my transitions and 

movements.

 

YES, I have also been known as a gamer.....although I am also 72.

 

..........Widder

 

You are just a Whipper snapper at 72

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