Griner exchanged for arms dealer

[Clay Mosby]

There is no way I can truly express my opinion of this event that wouldn't get me permanently banned. I'll just say that Putin gets one of the most evil, vicious weapons for his arsenal, while we get an anti-American, American values hating lib that will gleefully be spreading her poison from within.

In addition, America's reputation takes another massive, embarrassing hit as the rest of the world goes from just laughing at us to full on belly laughs seasoned with total disrespect.

[Dantankerous]

Putin's arms dealer? Well...

 

Kind of like obama/holder running guns to Mexico? Fast and Furious?

 

Or the giveaway of $85 Billion in US military hardware recently in Afghanistan by Brandon?

 

Can't blame Trump for this debacle!

 

 

 

[Buckshot Bob]

6 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

Putin's arms dealer? Well...

 

Kind of like obama/holder running guns to Mexico? Fast and Furious?

 

Or the giveaway of $85 Billion in US military hardware recently in Afghanistan by Brandon?

 

Can't blame Trump for this debacle!

 

 

 

But they will anyway. They will use him as the boogeyman as long as possible 

[Cypress Sun]

The US spent millions of taxpayer dollars trying to catch Bout, finally did and now spent millions freeing him so that he can do it again, all to "free" a millionaire who knowingly broke laws in a foreign country.

 

The current administration has spent millions of taxpayer dollars trying to take American's firearms away but frees a man who supplies terrorists with full auto firearms, grenades, rocket launchers, etc, ect., all to free a millionaire, anti-American socialist from an anti-American socialist country.

 

The current administration has now spent millions of taxpayer money to provide free, private jet transportation from Russia to the US, free medical care, food and lodging all to free a millionaire basketball player who paid her own way TO Russia in order to make millions of dollars playing basketball in Russia. 

 

I know that I'm preaching to choir here but I really hope that all voters, both Democrats and Republicans, remember this (and many other things) came November 2024.

 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

I’m STILL too angry about this to make a cogent statement! 
 

(Where’s the steam flying out of ears emoji!!)

[PowderRiverCowboy]

All good nothing to see here just the ATF needing another supplier so they can work both ends on Ukraine , to keep it going for a couple more years to build that retirement fund of the Government 

[Subdeacon Joe]

[Buckshot Bob]

[Buckshot Bob]

[Subdeacon Joe]

The Russian take on it:

 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

Our governments stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

[Buckshot Bob]

[Utah Bob #35998]

3 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

The Russian take on it:

 

 

 And we complain about our news media.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

I'm sure Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton and Obuma are thrilled with the deal Joe Biteme and his crew of Anti-American Communist handlers screwed American citizens/taxpayers out of.   Trading "Known Terrorist" for knee kneeling bimbo against our National Anthem,  instead of  someone who spent his adult life trying to protect the USA against foreign enemies.

Time to "lock and load America", the revolution/civil war may be just around the corner.   

[Subdeacon Joe]

38 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

 And we complain about our news media.

 

Allowing for the hyperbole I think it was a decent analysis.  Especially calling out the three strikes against our "heroic spy."

[Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680]

It sure is disappointing to see how many people in here insist on believing the stupidest things just so you can have an excuse to keep hating other Americans. Before you even start, I'm not defending the stupid people on the other side, I'm just saying you're as bad as they are. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

3 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said:

It sure is disappointing to see how many people in here insist on believing the stupidest things just so you can have an excuse to keep hating other Americans. Before you even start, I'm not defending the stupid people on the other side, I'm just saying you're as bad as they are. 

 

I think it's her hypocrisy.  "Oh!  America is so RAAAACist, homoPHOBic, and misogynistic that I can't stand to hear the National Anthem!' "Oh!  I broke the law in Russia!  America, please help me not face the consequences of my actions!"  Also, with the trade, known and convicted arms dealer for a "check the boxes" athlete while a Marine is still sitting in prison in Russia, a lot of people feel that the priorities of the administration are 180 degrees off and then transfer the feelings for the administration to Griner.

My take on her situation is that she had played in Russia for several seasons, hadn't bothered to learn the language, chose to ignore their laws, and seems to have thought that since she "checked all the boxes" in the US she was bullet proof in Russia, too.  Oh!  Throw in the utter stupidity of going to Russia against the warning by the Dept. of State to not travel to Russia, and the very obvious signs that Putin was going to kick off a war and so any high profile American in Russia would be a target for political uses.  But, as a black lesbian athlete, she thought she was exempt.  Again, "I check all the boxes so nobody will dare touch me."

I do agree with you that the stridency can make people sound like the conservative version of The View. 

[Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680]

8 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

I think it's her hypocrisy.  "Oh!  America is so RAAAACist, homoPHOBic, and misogynistic that I can't stand to hear the National Anthem!' "Oh!  I broke the law in Russia!  America, please help me not face the consequences of my actions!"  Also, with the trade, known and convicted arms dealer for a "check the boxes" athlete while a Marine is still sitting in prison in Russia, a lot of people feel that the priorities of the administration are 180 degrees off and then transfer the feelings for the administration to Griner.

My take on her situation is that she had played in Russia for several seasons, hadn't bothered to learn the language, chose to ignore their laws, and seems to have thought that since she "checked all the boxes" in the US she was bullet proof in Russia, too.  Oh!  Throw in the utter stupidity of going to Russia against the warning by the Dept. of State to not travel to Russia, and the very obvious signs that Putin was going to kick off a war and so any high profile American in Russia would be a target for political uses.  But, as a black lesbian athlete, she thought she was exempt.  Again, "I check all the boxes so nobody will dare touch me."

I do agree with you that the stridency can make people sound like the conservative version of The View. 

Subdeacon Joe, you're right, but not completely. You left out a few things. Yes, she's only a basketball player, no better than any other American, but she's also an American who won two Olympic gold medals and that matters to a lot of people until they're told they should hate her. Yes, a Marine makes a lot of sacrifices for our country and deserves a lot of effort to help him in a situation like this, but it's pretty silly to think the reason he's still there is because this administration didn't make an effort. On the other hand, it makes sense to think that all the people saying he deserves every effort no matter what it takes is making it more likely they'll want to keep him longer. Yes, it would be better if a murderous arms trafficker was still in our jail, but the people saying this puts thousands of lives in danger don't really know what they're talking about. He's been away a long time and there's not much chance he could ever be effective in that area again, most likely he knows that if he even tries to enter that world again he won't stay alive long. As far as the people who want to hate Griner because she's a black homosexual who doesn't like the way some people still treat blacks and homosexuals, they should bear in mind that if anybody had done anything to address the problems Black Lives Matter people were protesting way back at the beginning, then kneeling for the anthem would have never even been a thing that anybody heard of. 

Anyway, i just wanted to point out a few things you left out but I don't want you to think I'm ignoring your points either, cause when you're right you're right. If anybody else still wants to whine about the way the current administration handled this, they should take a look at the statement Trump just made about it. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-says-he-turned-down-deal-russia-exchange-viktor-bout-paul-whelan 

[Subdeacon Joe]

13 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said:

should take a look at the statement Trump just made about it.

 

Exactly.  He correctly judged it a bad deal, 

 "I wouldn’t have made the deal for a hundred people in exchange for someone that has killed untold numbers of people with his arms deals" 

"I would have gotten Paul out, however, just as I did with a record number of other hostages. The deal for Griner is crazy and bad," Trump also said. "The taking wouldn’t have even happened during my Administration, but if it did, I would have gotten her out, fast!"

(Ok, he isn't the most articulate guy, and his bombastic pronouncements are tiresome.)

 

So instead of making a bad deal and at least getting a valuable asset out, we get someone who who has shown that she has no use for our republic. And why make this deal? Because this administration is more about making sure all the politically correct boxes are checked than about what is best for the republic.

 

 

ADDED: I like your response, well thought out and well stated, with valid points.   But any time I see or hear a "Well Trump did/didn't do (or said) such and such" I have to go find what happened or what he actually said.  Like the recent claim about him supposedly saying that it's time to overture the Constitution.  Complete distortion of what he really said.

[watab kid]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:52 AM, PowerRiverCowboy said:

Meanwhile a Marine sits in prison there Paul Whelan for 4 years and they ignore his family . But what else to expect from a Country that holds MARSOC 3 in the brig since 2019 with no trial 

this is my biggest problem with this 'deal' , he has been there longer and is in poor health at this point , 

 

"...She'll go stand next to Biden and the clueless, smirking Harris while he touts his "diplomacy"...."  i believe this will happen , the current admin will tout this as an achievement hoping to erase those left in the departure from afganistan/iraque , im not seeing it , 

 

i am pleased an american is coming home - no matter how disrespectful of this country she has been in the past or may be in the future , with that said the trade leaves a really bad taste in my mouth 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

Was she a he or she when she won the medals? Look at her high school game pictures, not wearing a shirt! Be what ya wanna be these days, but I can't applaud a 6'9" guy competing against woman as an accomplishment. Even her hands are twice the size of a woman's. Rant off.

[Cypress Sun]

13 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said:

It sure is disappointing to see how many people in here insist on believing the stupidest things just so you can have an excuse to keep hating other Americans. Before you even start, I'm not defending the stupid people on the other side, I'm just saying you're as bad as they are. 

 

If Libya had been holding Griner for the same criminal charges, would you agree with trading her for Abu Agila Mas'ud?

 

For the record, I have no hate for Griner...I have hate for terrorists and people who enable/supply terrorists. 

[Sedalia Dave]

The deal was wrong.

 

However if you objectively examine the past of the "Marine" currently being held in Russia you'll find that what he says and what social media says about him doesn't pass the smell test. 

 

Marine former or otherwise is not how I would describe his character. There is way more to the story of how and why he is in a Russian prison.  

 

 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

Whelan got the Big Chicken Dinner from the Marines (for the 'huh?' crowd -- a Bad Conduct Discharge). I think that makes him an ex-Marine, not a 'former' Marine. Interesting that it was never brought out until the Griner/Whelan controversy started.

 

As far as Griner's 'issues' -- I think what she said was wrong, I think it's pathetic that she whined to the U.S. for help after trashing it. But I suppose it would be fair to say how much you really believe in a right goes on display when you are faced with someone you disagree with exercising it. We've all screwed something up -- fortunately for most of us we don't have such a wide audience when we do it. 

 

I figured Griner was entitled to no more and no less consideration that ANY American imprisoned in a foreign country, just on the face of it. Not the first kid who wound up in jail because they thought the leniency and freedom they had in the U.S. covered them in a foreign country. But the timing of her arrest, the severity of her sentence, was pretty clearly to gain some political capital to use in dealing with an administration that the Russians were pretty sure they could out-deal.

 

In any event, I think Biden's deal was pretty transparently a ploy for points. He's not the first U.S. president who put the publicity of a deal ahead of the value of it. Especially if he's thinking about a 2024 run, he'll need to come up with as many warm bodies as he can get to balance against the 13 cold ones.

[Subdeacon Joe]

4 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

I figured Griner was entitled to no more and no less consideration that ANY American imprisoned in a foreign country, just on the face of it. Not the first kid who wound up in jail because they thought the leniency and freedom they had in the U.S. covered them in a foreign country.

 

True to an extent.  But would the Dept. of State have traded a convicted arms dealer for you in similar circumstances?  Also, she is hardly a kid.  She's 32.   A point in her life where she should know that actions have consequences, and that the rest of the world doesn't see things the same way as the United States do.

 

Quote

But the timing of her arrest, the severity of her sentence, was pretty clearly to gain some political capital to use in dealing with an administration that the Russians were pretty sure they could out-deal.

 

 

As I wrote before, she had played several seasons in Russia, so she should have known  the lay of the land.  But she hadn't even bothered to learn the language, much less the laws there.  And the Dept. of State had issued warnings to not go to Russia at that time.  She got far more consideration from our government than most would ever get.  

Re: the BCD.  “attempted larceny, making a false official statement, ten specifications of uttering checks without having sufficient funds in his account for payment, wrongfully using another’s social security number and three specifications of dereliction of duty.”  So, mostly financial stupidity and covering his butt, other than the dereliction charges, of which I didn't find details in a quick search.  I'm not excusing his stupidity and crimes, but when most people who haven't served hear "Bad Conduct Discharge" their minds go to "giving aid and comfort" or stealing and selling weapons and the like.  

[Ozark Huckleberry]

 

You list some very valid points, and you got me to thinking -- i believe that a lot of the talk around this suffers because it conflates two separate issues:

 

The simplest issue first -- the deal. I think it undermines the security of everyone traveling overseas when the government brings non-government associated people (aka -- tourists) into the negotiations. That encourages hostile countries to snatch someone on trumped-up charges. 

 

19 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

But would the Dept. of State have traded a convicted arms dealer for you in similar circumstances? 

 

Nope. I don't check any boxes. I'm just an ORWG. What I said about presidents putting publicity above value in these deals pretty much sums it up. 

 

19 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

she should know that actions have consequences, and that the rest of the world doesn't see things the same way as the United States do

 

The second issue is Griner as a person worthy of rescue. And you're right -- she is not a kid, and I didn't really mean to imply she was, just to say that lots of people have let immaturity lead them into mistakes -- 'Stupid is as stupid does' is not age-dependent. Your description of her behavior in Russia isn't surprising either. She had contempt for the U.S., and she had contempt for Russia -- as the saying goes, 'Wherever you go, there you are.' Griner could speak against the U.S. without sanction, and even be celebrated for it, but I suspect she was smart enough to realize she could lose her Russia paycheck if she did the same against Russia, but her contempt showed in other ways. She said the vape canisters were in her luggage accidentally but I doubt it, just as I doubt it was the first time she smuggled them into Russia. But I don't doubt that the Russians expected to find them in her luggage -- she'd been there before. 

 

19 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

she hadn't even bothered to learn the language, much less the laws there.  And the Dept. of State had issued warnings to not go to Russia at that time

 

As far as 'not learning the language', etc. -- you kinda laid out the cliché description of the 'ugly American'. She probably played basketball and  lived her life over there in a figurative bubble -- the behavior you describe mirrors some of the behavior I've seen from military personnel stationed overseas (I am not equating Griner's job to military service, just pointing out her shunning of the host country). She wasn't there for the joy of travel, she was there for a paycheck. 

 

Should the U.S. leave her in Russian prison because she was a fool? Did the U.S. abandon Otto Warmbier, who should have known better than to vandalize a poster of Dear Leader in a North Korean hotel? Did the U.S. abandon Shourd, Bouer, and Fattal -- three Americans who should have known better than to go hiking and step through a border checkpoint and into Iran?

 

Be all that as it may, in the end -- Griner is an American citizen, and what she has said was an exercise of  her rights. Even if I disagree with her and find her comments repulsive, I can't bring myself to believe that the U.S. should have abandoned her. We don't win any argument by shutting down, shouting over, or discarding the people we disagree with. We win the argument by making better points.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:40 AM, Cypress Sun said:

I know that I'm preaching to choir here but I really hope that all voters, both Democrats and Republicans, remember this (and many other things) came November 2024.

 

We just came off an election where we hoped the voters would remember the Antifa riots, Afghan exit debacle, defund the police, let in all the illegals, and the rape of our economy. And the idiots STILL voted Democrat. I seriously doubt things will get better in 2024.

[Cypress Sun]

24 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

We just came off an election where we hoped the voters would remember the Antifa riots, Afghan exit debacle, defund the police, let in all the illegals, and the rape of our economy. And the idiots STILL voted Democrat. I seriously doubt things will get better in 2024.

 

If they don't, IMO...it's over.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Putin has announced that he is open to more trades. Yeah! I bet he is. The left is excited and think it's just great. Putin will make trades like this with Biden all day long except that there aren't a bunch of other terrorists  at the level of the first trade to consider. Griner was not railroaded as they try to characterize it now. We would have been wrong to trade the terrorist for Whelan too. A good trade is supposed to be close to an even trade. Not even remotely close on this one. Completely owned by Putin.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Putin has announced that he is open to more trades. Yeah! I bet he is. The left is excited and think it's just great. Putin will make trades like this with Biden all day long except that there aren't a bunch of other terrorists  at the level of the first trade to consider. Griner was not railroaded as they try to characterize it now. We would have been wrong to trade the terrorist for Whelan too. A good trade is supposed to be close to an even trade. Not even remotely close on this one. Completely owned by Putin.

Obama gave away the last bunch of 8 terrorists. You can't make this stuff up.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Hmmm, who would I have traded for Griner?  The Clinton Family, The Obama Family, Schiff, Schumer, AOC, Nadler, Newsom, the rest of the Squade,  Sanders, Warren, or any other piece of crap Democrat.  

May they all rot in Hell.

[watab kid]

i have spoken to a good number of folks from all walks of life and various ages of this [they all brought it up - not me] all have agreed it was great getting an american home , not one thought it was a good "deal" , a few thought we left a marine and should have held out for both [a few didnt know of our marine] but not one thought it was a "good deal" ...a few thought if she had drugs it was her stupid call , two thought the drugs should not be a big deal - even after i pointed out it was another countries laws that were broken ...................same two might think our southern boarder should be open , they dont think about laws till it effects them personally , life will deal with them , 

 

so ....bottom line is , bad choice/deal , we need our marine back and they shouldn't have gotten their arms dealer in the middle of an armed conflict