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ROC - Changes needed?


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6 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

So, did the TGs not know what they were actually voting on, or not actually read it?

 

If I remember right, the vote was done electronically.

I can say first hand in 3 different clubs, the question was posed 2 different ways for 2 different meanings by the TG or substitute TG.

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Hang in there Creeker and the rest of you really concerned, SASS dues paying, and SASS supporting members. 

Be interesting to see how many "Active SASS Members" are paying attention to what is really going on in our game.

Don't understand why non SASS members are allowed to "JUMP" on the Wire and "Give Their Expert Opinion"  on everything, but don't pay up and join SASS.  "If you ain't a member, you can look, but you can't put in your 1 cent worth."

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17 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

I can understand the need for the ROC, I don’t see a need for TGs.  As @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 mentioned in this day and age we’re all communicating electronically and don’t have a need for a go between anymore.  Of course everything will depend on what Misty wants and what she feel comfortable with.  I’ll just add that my only interaction with a TG turned me off to the whole concept, I got the old “this is the way we’ve always done it” answer.  

You might be surprised at the number of shooters that have neither social media, or even email. 

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43 minutes ago, Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 said:

You might be surprised at the number of shooters that have neither social media, or even email. 

 

Those same shooters are also missing out on other membership benefits such as the Cowboy Chronicle and other communication from SASS HQ, like the recent membership satisfaction survey:

 

 

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13 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

...Don't understand why non SASS members are allowed to "JUMP" on the Wire and "Give Their Expert Opinion"  on everything, but don't pay up and join SASS.  "If you ain't a member, you can look, but you can't put in your 1 cent worth."

As explained a LONG time ago when this came up... The SASS Wire is open to all interested parties, in order for newbies, and others to learn about SASS, its goals, events and how the game is played.  As recent threads have shown, not even active members agree on how it's played... or should be played, rules and structure.  I've seen more newbies posing questions rather than giving "Their Expert Opinion".  Sometimes those questions may invoke comparisons to gun games they currently play.  At times those may come across as criticisms, but are (IMO) really an attempt to understand the differences.  Cutting off that avenue of introduction has been deemed "not good for growth".  

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I really don't understand this seemingly semiannual "lets jump up and down and change everything."  Doesn't make lots of sense.  Change it . . .  Why??  SASS seems to work "as is."  Not enough people take the time to "Read as Written" anyway.  Constantly trying to "interpret" the meaning, usually to put on a personal "spin" rather than accept what actually is.

 

Let us all accept that SASS/CAS is not a growing Game anymore.  The game is slowly imploding.  Sure, biting, kicking and scratching, but imploding none the less.  More and more of us who were in the game when restricting the Wire was considered "not good for growth" are now becoming fewer and fewer with damn few replacements.  Think I jest??  Just take an honest look at yer loading table next match.  The number of us who now play in "age based" categories outnumber those who don't bye a good margin.

 

Quit sniveling.  It's a GAME.  Always has been a GAME.  Play the GAME.  Play the GAME by the RULES.  Quit sniveling.

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Sport ->

 

"

SECTION 1 – SASS & COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING™

 

The Single Action Shooting Society® is an international membership organization formed in 
1987 to preserve and promote the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting™. SASS serves as the 
governing and sanctioning body of the sport, promulgating the rules to ensure safety and 
consistency in Cowboy Action Shooting™ competitions worldwide. SASS sanctions 
championship matches including State, Regional, National, and the World Championship —
all held annually across the nation and internationally."

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Game... because as much as we'd all like to be... none of us are professionals.  

 

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16 minutes ago, Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037 said:

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
Ernest Hemingway

 

 

And yet, he was a lifelong hunter of dangerous game and fished obsessively for the largest species of game fish.   

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4 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Quit sniveling.  It's a GAME.  Always has been a GAME.  Play the GAME.  Play the GAME by the RULES.  Quit sniveling.

One - I have played this game as long as most in this forum and whether it is accurate or not - I feel like I have paid my dues in sweat, blood and effort to be able to freely post my opinion.

 

Two - I don't mind playing by the rules; but the goalposts need to be properly defined and remain in place.  We have been led to believe we have input in the rules and operations of the game - the current ROC method of combining creation AND interpretive duties is a mistake in my view.  If our input is no longer valid or valued - then that is the new reality that we have to choose to (or choose not to) participate within.

 

Three - Shrinking, imploding or aging is immaterial to doing what is in the best interests of the game and the participants.  I have given over too many years of my life running clubs, writing stages, setting steel to throw my hands in the air and give up on efforts to better CAS and SASS.

 

Four - I don't believe I was sniveling.

But, I would rather be one to complain and press for improvement (no matter how futile that effort may be) than be one who says; the patient will be dead soon - so there is no good reason to keep feeding them.

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31 minutes ago, Griff said:

Game... because as much as we'd all like to be... none of us are professionals.  

14 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Now Griff, we don't have to be a pro to play a sport. 

Aye, but there's no professional version of our game.    So it remains a game.  

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Ok, Ok, I'll settle the age old argument thus forth. 

   A game requires more than one person to play. Since we are a category based sport, one person can shoot in his or her category and win.

   A game tests the skills and talents of more than one person. A sport test the skills and talents of an individual.

  A game can be a mental or physical contest that people do for pleasure. A sport is a contest with physical requirements where people compete against each other.

 

Yall are welcome.:ph34r:

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It is JMO that things are going through some major changes. It is going to take a little time to make the transition from the Old World of SASS to the New World of SASS. I'm very proud of the years I spent on the ROC, particularly the years as the Chair. We accomplished a great deal, and we worked with the TG Body in every way. We were the Buffer between SASS and the Membership. Not everyone believes that, but that is the way things were.  The ROC is and has always been in a position similar to the Supreme Court... Not making rules, but interpreting them when necessary. Do to the fact that TG activity has fallen far off course over the past several years, much more has been thrown on the ROC. ANYONE that thinks it is an easy job is just totally wrong.  It is a job that is very trying and very tiring. Trying to satisfy both sides of the equation is difficult. With so little real activity on the part of the TGs (not their fault), everything fell on the ROC. During the major shake up at the top of this game, rules, training material, Instructing material  and just about EVERYTHING was effected. Even though I am no longer a direct part of it, don't think for a Micro second that I am not informed. This organization will either find it's way or it won't. I think that it will, but in the mean time, if you don't want to be a part of it, then don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out. I'm not happy with everything, but I'm not jumping ship either.    

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8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Ok, Ok, I'll settle the age old argument thus forth. 

   A game requires more than one person to play. Since we are a category based sport, one person can shoot in his or her category and win.

   A game tests the skills and talents of more than one person. A sport test the skills and talents of an individual.

  A game can be a mental or physical contest that people do for pleasure. A sport is a contest with physical requirements where people compete against each other.

 

Yall are welcome.:ph34r:

Come on TW, be a good sport and play the game!

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18 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Ok, Ok, I'll settle the age old argument thus forth. 

   A game requires more than one person to play. Since we are a category based sport, one person can shoot in his or her category and win.

   A game tests the skills and talents of more than one person. A sport test the skills and talents of an individual.

  A game can be a mental or physical contest that people do for pleasure. A sport is a contest with physical requirements where people compete against each other.

 

Yall are welcome.:ph34r:

 Not always .Think about it. Is solitaire a game or a sport.;)

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8 minutes ago, john brown said:

 Not always .Think about it. Is solitaire a game or a sport.;)

Most all people call solitaire a game, but since about 20% of the dealt hands are not winnable I don't consider it a game.:P

 

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On 5/10/2022 at 11:49 PM, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

This was discussed at the SW Regional at some length.  What we were told was that what was voted on was the shooter had until a gun was fired to correct it.  What went into effect was until you removed your hand.

Yes exactly, it was somehow hi jacked by the ROC I believe and in fact taking your hand off was another SGQ so you got two SDQ and ended up with a MDQ.

That was NEVER the intent of the rule. The original intent was you got automatic SDQ if you STAGED your rifle cocked, it was never about coming from the LT with it cocked.

99% of the time no one is looking at the shooter coming to the LT it's really only noticed if at all, once it's staged, and the shooter ready, that's where an RO would carry out an "inspection" of the shooter to see he/she had sg ammo, leather correct etc. Reason why,??? He could have come to the table with the hammer down and when staging it brushed the hammer on his clothing or the prop etc, ( I have personal experience of this when RO ing) we all have very light hammers these days.

I have argued long and hard about the rule as it is now, because it's wrong.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Yes exactly, it was somehow hi jacked by the ROC I believe and in fact taking your hand off was another SGQ so you got two SDQ and ended up with a MDQ.

That was NEVER the intent of the rule. The original intent was you got automatic SDQ if you STAGED your rifle cocked, it was never about coming from the LT with it cocked.

99% of the time no one is looking at the shooter coming to the LT it's really only noticed if at all, once it's staged, and the shooter ready, that's where an RO would carry out an "inspection" of the shooter to see he/she had sg ammo, leather correct etc. Reason why,??? He could have come to the table with the hammer down and when staging it brushed the hammer on his clothing or the prop etc, ( I have personal experience of this when RO ing) we all have very light hammers these days.

I have argued long and hard about the rule as it is now, because it's wrong.

 

Seems like if the majority of the TGs want to change this they can.   So, why don't they?  The meeting at Land Run is not far off.  All you have to do is vote in an exception to the "safe to leave shooter's hands".   It gives you time to discuss this with other TGs to see what their membership wants.

Edited by McCandless
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11 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

Seems like if the majority of the TGs want to change this they can.   So, why don't they?  The meeting at Land Run is not far off.  All you have to do is vote in an exception to the "safe to leave shooter's hands".   It gives you time to discuss this with other TGs to see what their membership wants.

THAT, IMO ..... is the single biggest problem with the system RIGHT NOW that has caused the current Delima. Changing or introducing new rules to the game should be a process that involves or at least gives every member the opportunity to provide feed back to their TG. The rules should not be determined by just the vocal few that make the most noise at a Big meeting. NO RULE should be put into place just because the few TGs that attend Land Run or EOT vote for it. I've been to many of those meetings and the fact is, many of them are less than a stellar event. Major decisions are made in the corporate world everyday via Video or an internet vote. I do believe that meetings at these matches can provide very good feedback, and should take place. But any vote taken should be limited to what issues should be pushed up the ladder. These meetings should be the place where rule proposals begin, NOT where they are settled. Any proposal that has enough support should be sent to the ROC to make sure that the proposal does not conflict with another existing rule. Once that is determined, it should be sent out to every TG and posted on the TG wire for follow up discussion by all TGs. At some pre determined time the Question would be called for and ALL TGs would be given a time window to cast their vote. If passed, the ROC would add it to the Rule Books and announce the fact that it was in effect. I think that this full action only needs to take place once a year. Any emergency rule that needs to take place can be done on a TEMPORARY basis by the ROC until the TG body can make the decision. 

 

Snakebite

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OK, everybody seems to want to change the Rule Book.  Piecemeal.  One item at a time.  Throw it up for discussion.  Discuss it to death.  Then try and get a majority vote.  Then start over.  By the time you change the rule book in this manner, SASS will be down to 24 Old Men who can't remember where the put their guns.  Let current Senate activity be yer guide.

 

You wanna change it??  OK.  Toss the whole thing and start over.  Shouldn't take more then 6 or seven years that way.  And good luck getting a quorum.

 

Anybody thinks this GAME is a "sport" better take a close look at all those antique "athletes" or any "athletes" at yer loading table.

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45 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Other than changing the moving from the LT to the line with a cocked rifle rule back to a SDQ, what else is there in there that really needs changing?

Hmmm besides everything?

Ok, maybe not everything, but...

 

There needs to be a concentrated effort to properly rewrite and codify the rulebook.

Including referencing within the rulebook any required clarifications that may be too lengthy for a handbook.  These clarifications need to be provided as a companion booklet to EVERY member in printed form (or at minimum electronically) once yearly.

 

The category matrix needs attention and steps taken to rein in the never ending shooter segregation category expansion.

 

The communication channels that used to flow SASS - TG - clubs/ shooters need to be re-examined to better reflect the age we live in and access to immediate information.

 

Issues and changes should be created thru open communication (and feedback) with the shooters instead of being announced unilaterally.

 

Equipment rules should be adapted to a standard that is accepting of "if a reasonable person would have done this in the era - it is acceptable" barring, of course illegal or unsafe modifications (pistol grip 87's or Bridgeport devices come to mind)

 

I have others...

But that will do for now.

 

 

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If I remember right, the proposal that was up for vote was posted and pinned in all the forums and the TG Wire.  If the TGs didn't pass this on properly to their members, how is that the fault of the ROC?  The TGs had a long time to think this over and discuss it, and all the ramifications.  If they read something into it that wasn't there, that's not the ROCs fault.  

 

Sounds like everyone wants to transfer their failures onto someone else.

 

The vote was on exactly what was written.  The legislators want to blame the judges for enforcing what the legislators passed.

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9 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

There needs to be a concentrated effort to properly rewrite and codify the rulebook.

Including referencing within the rulebook any required clarifications that may be too lengthy for a handbook.  These clarifications need to be provided as a companion booklet to EVERY member in printed form (or at minimum electronically) once yearly.

 

Similar to a rulebook and a casebook...

 

https://cdn3.sportngin.com/attachments/document/4c44-2502132/2021-25_USAH_Playing_Rules___Casebook.pdf

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12 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

 

Anybody thinks this GAME is a "sport" better take a close look at all those antique "athletes" or any "athletes" at yer loading table.

I don't get the insinuation I guess. Is there an age when an athlete can't be an athlete anymore? 

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11 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

There needs to be a concentrated effort to properly rewrite and codify the rulebook.

Including referencing within the rulebook any required clarifications that may be too lengthy for a handbook.  These clarifications need to be provided as a companion booklet to EVERY member in printed form (or at minimum electronically) once yearly.

I agree with this 100%. I was a die hard 4+ match per month shooter for 10 years, but then my wife and I had a couple extra kids. I dropped off only shooting occasionally and then was out for about 5 years. Now my little guy is shooting with me. 

 

When I came back the first thing I did, WELL before ever shooting my first match, was reviewed the rule book. I have always been an avid and active RO and I ran a club for 5 years. I also wanted to make sure my Buckaroo was learning correctly. 

 

Well I get to my first shoot and some of the rule changes I start hearing about and was told well it's not in the rule book but it was decided by the ROC. 

 

As we say in law enforcement, If it's not in writing, it didn't happen.   

 

There's my .02¢

JEL

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13 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Other than changing the moving from the LT to the line with a cocked rifle rule back to a SDQ, what else is there in there that really needs changing?

It would be nice if 'in hand' meant you were actually holding something rather than it being on a table, ie, a duelist who places a loaded pistol on a table while shooting his other pistol is penalized for having 'two loaded pistols in hand'.  Umm, no, he's only holding one pistol. OTH, a duelist who is holding a pistol in his hand, but with the muzzle touching a table, doesn't have a pistol in hand.  So in one case, the shooter isn't touching the pistol at all, but gets called for it, in the other, the shooter is actually holding the pistol, but it's not considered in hand. 

 

I wouldn't mind if we changed page 17 SHB.  The 170 degree rule is NOT "always in effect' so it shouldn't say that. 

 

Clarification on guns dropped off the firing line would be helpful.  The question has come up and it has been pointedly ignored. 

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35 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

OTH, a duelist who is holding a pistol in his hand, but with the muzzle touching a table, doesn't have a pistol in hand.

 

If I'm understanding you correctly....that only applies when the pistols are initially staged on the table...

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