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WTC Calling a miss or a "P" on yourself


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Scenario called for rifle pistol sweep with set amount on hits on each target. Not a round count. I shot the stage and was called clean. Went to the unloading table and ejected unfired round from pistol. Neither myself, the TO or the spotters saw that I only fired 9 rounds. I showed the bullet to the ULT officer and said “that’s a miss” and told the scorekeeper to give me a miss on my score which he did. On the way home my wife and I were discussing the match. I got to thinking that that miss would have also resulted in a “P” because somewhere in the two pistols I didn’t fire a round. I do know the last round hit the correct target. I have a left and right designated pistol but failed to notice which gun the bullet came out of. It is possible and more than likely that I put the incorrect number of rounds on a target which earned the “P”. The rules state that only spotters can call a miss and only the spotters and TO can call a “P”.  I called the miss on myself but didn’t think about the “P” at the time. Now my questions to the group are:

1. Do YOU call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

2. CAN you call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

3. SHOULD you call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

I’m sure most of us have either benefitted or lost because of a missed call at one time or another. Just wondering what the masses thought.

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33 minutes ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

Scenario called for rifle pistol sweep with set amount on hits on each target. Not a round count. I shot the stage and was called clean. Went to the unloading table and ejected unfired round from pistol. Neither myself, the TO or the spotters saw that I only fired 9 rounds. I showed the bullet to the ULT officer and said “that’s a miss” and told the scorekeeper to give me a miss on my score which he did. On the way home my wife and I were discussing the match. I got to thinking that that miss would have also resulted in a “P” because somewhere in the two pistols I didn’t fire a round. I do know the last round hit the correct target. I have a left and right designated pistol but failed to notice which gun the bullet came out of. It is possible and more than likely that I put the incorrect number of rounds on a target which earned the “P”. The rules state that only spotters can call a miss and only the spotters and TO can call a “P”.  I called the miss on myself but didn’t think about the “P” at the time. Now my questions to the group are:

1. Do YOU call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

2. CAN you call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

3. SHOULD you call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

I’m sure most of us have either benefitted or lost because of a missed call at one time or another. Just wondering what the masses thought.

I  have called MS on myself...also a SDQ (WR and 2nd stage found 5 empties in one pistol)

So...in essence, if the spotters and the TO did not call it, you theoreticly lucked out.

I tried giving myself a miss, and the TO and score keeper absolutely refused to note it.

 

Knowing that round did not go down range, you would not feel right about not bringing attention to it.

 

With that said...a miss can not cause a P.

You must have finished the last target without the correct # of hits...and being it did not go down range...I say 1 miss.

(If you finished the stage with the correct # hits on last target, where did you engage a wrong target...and is that not just a miss also?

I need to see what others say.

You are Gunfighter, correct?

Can confuse one as myself if the sequence is tricky!

Edited by Singin' Sue 71615
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I would call the miss on myself for the unfired round in pistol or rifle. (Plus MSV if in rifle) I dont think I would call the P. 
 

of course all of us would call the SDQ for empties in gun at next stage. 
 

as for “on the line” misses of Ps, not calling them on myself.  There have been times when I know I was clean, got a miss or P, and times I thought I had a miss or P and did not get the penalty. Probably over a career of CAS it evens out in my favor. If there is discussion on a P, if TO asks me I will give my honest opinion. As a TO I dont ask shooter if he thought he had a P. 

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I would (and have) apprise the TO of the issue, and let him/her make the appropriate call based on the information I provided and with the input of the spotters for that stage. 

Edited by Sarge
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9 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I would call the miss on myself for the unfired round in pistol or rifle. (Plus MSV if in rifle) I dont think I would call the P. 
 

of course all of us would call the SDQ for empties in gun at next stage. 
 

as for “on the line” misses of Ps, not calling them on myself.  There have been times when I know I was clean, got a miss or P, and times I thought I had a miss or P and did not get the penalty. Probably over a career of CAS it evens out in my favor. If there is discussion on a P, if TO asks me I will give my honest opinion. As a TO I dont ask shooter if he thought he had a P. 

Not ALL...I have seen a few who have swept the empties from the table and loaded up.

No proof is no proof.

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I called a SDQ on myself at a state match for leaving empties in a pistol. That one hurt big time. 

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15 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Not ALL...I have seen a few who have swept the empties from the table and loaded up.

No proof is no proof.

Sue, no doubt there are a very few that would do something like that. I’d hope <1%.  They have to know anything they won was not fairly won and has to be tainted in their mind. 

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Just now, Hoss said:

Sue, no doubt there are a very few that would do something like that. I’d hope <1%.  They have to know anything they won was not fairly won and has to be tainted in their mind. 

Yup...very few.

But...there are always the handfull that have to be involved.

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When your Miss is because of an unfired round found at the ULT, if a P is warranted and not reported...that's cheating.

 

If the pistol that had the round in it was the last gun shot so that the sequence was correct except for the last shot not being fired, then no P. Otherwise it was a P.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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One of our most experienced shooters came to the loading table with both pistols loaded with empties (first stage - he'd been practicing some days before and just didn't kick them out).  Sawmill Mary was loading table officer.  Rather than just kick the empies out and load,  he went to an empty bay and unloaded the empties and returned to the loading table. 

 

We (almost) always have a loading and unloading table officer at the local matches.   If we have a small posse, we have the next one loading check the next guy up.  Same at the unloading table. 

 

I'm bad about making a remark when I miss.  More than ones the T.O. would remark, "If you hadn't said something,  the spotters may not have noticed.".

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

One of our most experienced shooters came to the loading table with both pistols loaded with empties (first stage - he'd been practicing some days before and just didn't kick them out).  Sawmill Mary was loading table officer.  Rather than just kick the empies out and load,  he went to an empty bay and unloaded the empties and returned to the loading table.

Why?

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6 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

One of our most experienced shooters came to the loading table with both pistols loaded with empties (first stage - he'd been practicing some days before and just didn't kick them out).  Sawmill Mary was loading table officer.  Rather than just kick the empies out and load,  he went to an empty bay and unloaded the empties and returned to the loading table. 

 

We (almost) always have a loading and unloading table officer at the local matches.   If we have a small posse, we have the next one loading check the next guy up.  Same at the unloading table. 

 

I'm bad about making a remark when I miss.  More than ones the T.O. would remark, "If you hadn't said something,  the spotters may not have noticed.".

 

 

Be learned to not call a miss on myself. Sometimes on a “big miss” I might say “just nicked it” :P 

in reality, I try not to talk while shooting. Causes loss of focus. 

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Yep, why go hide to remove empties?   Feeling guilty?  Penalty accrues on ARRIVAL at loading table, on any stages except first of day.

First stage of the day, empties in a gun at loading table don't amount to penalties.  Good reminder to the shooter to "Pay Attention to Unloading"

Other stages, the SDQ goes on previous stage shot.  Take your SDQ with grace.  An even better reminder to the shooter.

 

Or could the gun have contained live rounds??  Now, no one knows but the shooter.

 

Quote

Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

 

Page 28, Shooter's Handbook

 

good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Warden,

if the shooter was "one of our most experienced shooters", AND...it was the 1st stage of the day,

he should have known of the no penalty rule and could have emptied them there.

 

Is it possible those were live rounds and he didn't want to get caught, maybe walking around

with loaded pistols at a cold range?

 

..........Widder

 

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Howdy Seamus.

1.   I won't call a miss on myself but I will notify the TO should I think I earned a 'P'.

Too many times I thought I missed when everyone says contrary.  And too many times I thought

I hit everything but everyone says I missed.

 

2.  The TO is the ONLY one eligible to authorize a 'P' penalty.

 

3.  Probably not.  Let the Spotters and the TO do their job and live with the results, favorable or not.

I must add that in ANY call that you don't agree with, just make your protest within the guidelines

for such protest.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I would call the miss on myself for the unfired round in pistol or rifle. (Plus MSV if in rifle) I dont think I would call the P. 
 

of course all of us would call the SDQ for empties in gun at next stage. 
 

as for “on the line” misses of Ps, not calling them on myself.  There have been times when I know I was clean, got a miss or P, and times I thought I had a miss or P and did not get the penalty. Probably over a career of CAS it evens out in my favor. If there is discussion on a P, if TO asks me I will give my honest opinion. As a TO I dont ask shooter if he thought he had a P. 

Matches my feeling on the subject.

J.M.

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Last month I called a "P" on myself as I walked off the line for double discharging as a gunfighter.  I was given 5 misses with no "P" even no one could identify the misses.  Lots of experienced folks don't know the rules.

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56 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I called a "P" on myself as I walked off the line for double discharging as a gunfighter.  I was given 5 misses with no "P" even no one could identify the misses.

 

The call for that should have been the P that you suggested.  But of course, you can't call a P as the shooter, only suggest one.   Can't give the shooter 5 misses unless 5 misses were seen or 5 rounds were not expended!  Unloading table check showed, I'm sure, all 10 rounds expended.  So the correct call is P for violating rules of the category (one or more simultaneous discharges of gunfighter revolvers).  

 

good luck, GJ

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Two day match and I was a Posse Leader.  First day, last stage of the day..  At the loading table I missed my holster with a loaded gun.  Gun landed on the ground.  Loader ahead of me was the only witness and said it was a prop failure (carpet on the table top was larger then the table and gave a false impression on loading area.

 

I unloaded my firearms, took them back to my cart and then informed the Scorer to give me a MD. 


Second day I preformed PL duties only.

Edited by Matthew Duncan
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Integrity = what you do when no one is looking.  I applaud anyone for calling a penalty on themself when it’s correct.  If you win a match but break a rule to do it, is the win really worth it?  So Seamus just by you calling anything on yourself shows your true colors, bravo pard, bravo.  

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6 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

Scenario called for rifle pistol sweep with set amount on hits on each target. Not a round count. I shot the stage and was called clean. Went to the unloading table and ejected unfired round from pistol. Neither myself, the TO or the spotters saw that I only fired 9 rounds. I showed the bullet to the ULT officer and said “that’s a miss” and told the scorekeeper to give me a miss on my score which he did. On the way home my wife and I were discussing the match. I got to thinking that that miss would have also resulted in a “P” because somewhere in the two pistols I didn’t fire a round. I do know the last round hit the correct target. I have a left and right designated pistol but failed to notice which gun the bullet came out of. It is possible and more than likely that I put the incorrect number of rounds on a target which earned the “P”. The rules state that only spotters can call a miss and only the spotters and TO can call a “P”.  I called the miss on myself but didn’t think about the “P” at the time. Now my questions to the group are:

1. Do YOU call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

2. CAN you call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

3. SHOULD you call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

I’m sure most of us have either benefitted or lost because of a missed call at one time or another. Just wondering what the masses thought.

Being you can not recall wich pistol had the 'miss'...I still call 1 miss only.

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And Phantom...before you ask me "why"?

Because...benefit goes to the shooter.

1 round in 1 pistol means there was an absolute miss (from unfired round)...

Being no one caught the tenth round did not go down range, then no one ABSOLUTELY SAW a P take place.

That is my stance, and I'm sticking to it...I think.

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Shooters handbook page 14 -

 

Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a Miss penalty. However, if a live round is under the hammer, a Stage Disqualification penalty is assessed.

If the shooter was aware of the targets being engaged out of order then that would result in an awarded P. Since the match was over.... Oh well.

 

 

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I've called P's on myself before, and a safety at least once - I was shooting Gunfighter double duelist style, due to... split pistols, probably. One gun had a high primer or something, and wouldn't turn. I reached up, transferred hands, finally got the cylinder turned, and hammer back... shifted it to my shooting hand, and shot the rest of the string... I realized immediately what I did, but NOBODY else caught it. :blink:

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36 minutes ago, Singin&#x27; Sue 71615 said:

And Phantom...before you ask me "why"?

Because...benefit goes to the shooter.

1 round in 1 pistol means there was an absolute miss (from unfired round)...

Being no one caught the tenth round did not go down range, then no one ABSOLUTELY SAW a P take place.

That is my stance, and I'm sticking to it...I think.

Uhhh...don't think my "WHY" question referenced your post. It referenced Warden Callaway's post.

 

Phantom

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7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Uhhh...don't think my "WHY" question referenced your post. It referenced Warden Callaway's post.

 

Phantom

I was just prepareing myself, pal of mine!:D

I know most of you 'excerise' your eyes when I answer!!!

But I assure you, I am learning...and passing on the information I learn !

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22 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Shooters handbook page 14 -

 

Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a Miss penalty. However, if a live round is under the hammer, a Stage Disqualification penalty is assessed.

If the shooter was aware of the targets being engaged out of order then that would result in an awarded P. Since the match was over.... Oh well.

 

 

And...he (or anyone else, for that matter) was not aware of shooting out of order...so

1 miss.

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At the end, we have our ULT procedure to dicover such occurrences and there's the penalty quoted above to cover it, the Miss that you called/proposed on yourself. If both revolvers went BANG at the last trigger pull then the life round wasn't under the hammer. And if someone wanted to call a P in this situation, that someone should be able to point out where it happened.

 

But beside the calls, I am rather wondering what really happened.

 

14 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

Neither myself, the TO or the spotters saw that I only fired 9 rounds.

 

It's one of the TO's task to count rounds. The spotters are listed in the SHB as "Spotters/Counters" and being supposed to point out Ps you definitely have to be aware of the number of shots that have been fired. So, if none of them realized that you didn't fire 10 rounds, then either all of them did an awful job or you were incredibly fast shooting or you might have actually fired 10 rounds?

Are you positive that you had one empty chamber in each revolver at the ULT? Did you or the LTO check if the chambers under the lowered hammers are empty?

 

Equanimous Phil

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I'll never call a miss on myself but I have called a SDQ on myself when my pistols weren't unloaded when I got to the next stage. They had fired rounds from the stage before.

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1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

But beside the calls, I am rather wondering what really happened.

 

Are you positive that you had one empty chamber in each revolver at the ULT? Did you or the LTO check if the chambers under the lowered hammers are empty?

My best guess would be that I put incorrect number of shots on  a target with one of the pistols.

 

I carry a loading block to loading table so I'm certain proper rounds in each. I know the last shot was on correct target because it was a common rifle/pistol away from the others. 

 

There was also no indication of a light strike.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

My best guess would be that I put incorrect number of shots on  a target with one of the pistols.

 

I carry a loading block to loading table so I'm certain proper rounds in each. I know the last shot was on correct target because it was a common rifle/pistol away from the others. 

 

There was also no indication of a light strike.

 

 

Seamus...buddy...have a Snickers!!!

Your "best guess"...is NOT being absolute...so, awarded the miss that was, and no more thought on it!!!

You're gonna drive yourself nuts!!!

 

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1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

And if someone wanted to call a P in this situation, that someone should be able to point out where it happened.

Not necessarily.

 

If the last round was on the right target, then one of the rounds in the middle was not shot.

 

That's a P.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Not necessarily.

 

If the last round was on the right target, then one of the rounds in the middle was not shot.

 

That's a P.

 

Phantom

That COULD have been the miss. 

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16 minutes ago, Hoss said:

That COULD have been the miss. 

If the last round went bang...and was on the correct target to finish the string...????

 

Explain what you're saying please.

 

Phantom

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