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WTC - Shotgun targets


Null N. Void
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I have received two different rulings on the following scenario.  They come from Black Pin+ qualified individuals. I would like a consistent ruling going into EOT.

 

Rifle and Pistol are not involved.  Shotgun instructions say 6+.  SG is last with 6 targets separated so one shot will not take down 2 targets.

 

When shooter gets to SG position, one of the SG targets is down.  (5 of 6 are standing)  The shooter clearly misses the first standing target and is not close to the downed target.  The shooter proceeds to use 5 shots to knock down the standing 5 targets.  At this point, 6 SG targets are down with 6 shots.  Is the shooter:

 

A-Done.

B- Needs to shoot one more SG directed at the SG target that was down before the shooter arrived at the SG shooting position.

 

What is the call per PWB and the groups that guide PWB?  I will follow that guidance if the situation comes up.

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Posted (edited)

When shooter gets to SG position, one of the SG targets is down.  (5 of 6 are standing)  The shooter clearly misses the first standing target and is not close to the downed target.  The shooter proceeds to use 5 shots to knock down the standing 5 targets.  At this point, 6 SG targets are down with 6 shots.  Is the shooter:

 

If it is determined that the shooter did not engage the downed (malfunctioning) target  where it was then it is 1 miss.

 

Shooters handbook page 13 - In the event a target fails or is downed, the shooter should “shoot where it was.”

 

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts
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This absolutely needs an official clarification 

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Done...

 

A just because someone has one of them "Black Pins", doesn't mean they know what they are talking about...the things that I've heard come out of some "Black Pin" holders make me look like a Rules Savant.

 

What's real funny is when the last target is already down and the shooter just rips the round down range. No one says anything...wanna talk about intent???

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

When shooter gets to SG position, one of the SG targets is down.  (5 of 6 are standing)  The shooter clearly misses the first standing target and is not close to the downed target.  The shooter proceeds to use 5 shots to knock down the standing 5 targets.  At this point, 6 SG targets are down with 6 shots.  Is the shooter:

 

If it is determined that the shooter did not engage the downed (malfunctioning) target  where it was then it is 1 miss.

 

Shooters handbook page 13 - In the event a target fails or is downed, the shooter should “shoot where it was.”

 

 

Define "where it was"...looking forward to your response. I'm sure it'll be a precise location.

 

Phantom

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I'd say the answer is B, in other words you shoot where it was, so shooter uses 7 shots. 

I think that's pretty straight forward.?

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Posted (edited)

The shooter has to fire at the shotgun target that has already fallen over.  Not engaging would help the shooter's time in the scenario described.

Edited by Chantry
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36 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

I'd say the answer is B, in other words you shoot where it was, so shooter uses 7 shots. 

I think that's pretty straight forward.?

How close do the shot need to be in order for it to be counted...I mean...I LOVE subjectivity when it comes to competitions.

 

Phantom

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31 minutes ago, Chantry said:

The shooter has to fire at the shotgun target that has already fallen over.  Not engaging would help the shooter's time in the scenario described.

And I'll ask you too...how close does the shot need to be????

 

Need precision answers here please since subjectivity kills the competition.

 

Phantom

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6 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

**COUGH**  **COUGH**  Golden BB  **COUGH**  **COUGH** :ph34r:

Egggzackly...until one...or two...or ??? T.O's don't see that GBB...Now that's fair!

 

:wacko:

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Why not just fix the failed target and reshoot?

 

Is there a limit to what we will accept as a prop failure, shoot it were it was????

 

How's about a swinger that stops swinging because the lead rope got caught on something??? Prop failure...shoot it were it is...was...????

 

Phantom

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13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Egggzackly...until one...or two...or ??? T.O's don't see that GBB...Now that's fair!

 

:wacko:

 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.  I simply got a bit of dust caught in my throat and was trying to clear it out. :)

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9 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Sent to the ROC for a definitive ruling.

IIRC This was settled twice previously. Shooter fired 6 shots. Six were required, the "or" between the 6+ is implied. Six targets are down.

 

It's a long story why I remember; but, I was there when one of the events that resulted in the clarification occurred. 

 

I will look for the threads; but, as I am no longer a TG and it has probably been archived, I doubt I will have any luck.

 

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2 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.  I simply got a bit of dust caught in my throat and was trying to clear it out. :)

Oh surrrrrrrre...

 

:rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oh surrrrrrrre...

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

Many MANY years ago we had a stage that called for knock down, bell, knockdown, bell with the shotgun.  When I finished I was flabbergasted to see a spotter holding up one finger and said I missed one of the bells.  I'll be the first to admit I probably did.  The Golden BB phenomenon made me complacent when it came to that sort of target.  But it shocked me to see it actually called. :wacko:

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1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

Many MANY years ago we had a stage that called for knock down, bell, knockdown, bell with the shotgun.  When I finished I was flabbergasted to see a spotter holding up one finger and said I missed one of the bells.  I'll be the first to admit I probably did.  The Golden BB phenomenon made me complacent when it came to that sort of target.  But it shocked me to see it actually called. :wacko:

We've all had that "What? No GBB????" look on our face at one point or another.

 

I had a spotter call a miss on a rebounding SG target. She said it didn't "Move enough"...seriously, those where her exact words.

 

Which highlight my argument - remove subjectivity where ever possible. It really does ruin a competition. If this is not a "competition", then get rid of the timer and awards...etc...

 

PS: I miss that bast**d M.M...if you ever see him, tell him I said hi. He's a good man!

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

IIRC This was settled twice previously. Shooter fired 6 shots. Six were required, the "or" between the 6+ is implied. Six targets are down.

 

It's a long story why I remember; but, I was there when one of the events that resulted in the clarification occurred. 

 

I will look for the threads; but, as I am no longer a TG and it has probably been archived, I doubt I will have any luck.

 


 I remember it having to do with assuming the shooters intent. 
 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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OP did not say the target failed.   One target was down when the shooter made it to the shooting position. 

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21 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

OP did not say the target failed.   One target was down when the shooter made it to the shooting position. 

Same thing...it fail to be a target when the shooter made it to that position...

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26 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

OP did not say the target failed.   One target was down when the shooter made it to the shooting position. 

 

So do we have to add "due to target setter failure" to the "shoot where it was" rule as a clarification?

Or T/O failure to make sure the stage is ready for the shooter? (REF: RO1 p.25 "Running the Firing Line" #2)

The target FELL at some point and was DOWN when the shooter began engagement.

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We do not score on shooters intent - we score based on verifiable results.

 

Why the targets are down is wholly immaterial - wind, earthquake or reset failure.

 

6 targets down - 6 shots fired - next shooter.

 

 

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Done.

  We all know, or should, that we do not ASSume where the shooter is aiming or their intent no matter how "clearly" they miss something. This is why the wording "correct target type" is in the miss/flow chart. Have you ever missed a target and hit a different one of the same type? Well, I have and didn't get a miss, I rightfully got a P even though I intended to shoot the correct target. That's why we can't start to guess shooters intent. The correct number of shots went down range, all the KDs are down. I would say next shooter. 

 

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The only case you could clearly say "shooter didn't shoot where the target was" is when (s)he hits any other target, everything else is assuming.

 

I guess the intention of the rule "shoot where it was" is only to prevent shooters still aiming at a failed target (lying on the floor, not swinging anymore etc.) for safety reasons and to make it clear that you aren't supposed to shoot at another target (of that type) instead. 

 

Equanimous

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Posted (edited)

1 miss, 6 targets, need 7 shots. Target that was down before starting needs to be engaged, same as every other shooter. How it is engaged as brought up by phantom is another matter. So what about "Spirit of the game"? 

Edited by MBFields
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If the "down" target was never shot at, then I can't see how anyone could say that it had been engaged.

At this point I would call a miss because one SG target had not been engaged/shot where it was.

 

BS

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In my 9 yrs of shooting, about 7 of which I’ve done my share of TOing, I’ve only called one shotgun miss on a target that was not hit by “the golden BB”. These targets were not knockdowns, just had to be hit. As TO, right behind shooter, I saw he was not really pointed at target, hit the side berm probably 15’+ To right of target. I told him nope, try again. Probably not my call as TO, but was so obvious I just kinda blurted it out. 
 

In OP, if downed target was next to the one missed, I’d give benefit of the doubt. If it was on other end of 6 target array, probably not.  
 

gotta love those golden BBs! 

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31 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

If the "down" target was never shot at, then I can't see how anyone could say that it had been engaged.

At this point I would call a miss because one SG target had not been engaged/shot where it was.

 

BS

So...you measure the intent of the shooter...since engaging has nothing to do with where the shot goes.

 

Phantom

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4 minutes ago, Hoss said:

In my 9 yrs of shooting, about 7 of which I’ve done my share of TOing, I’ve only called one shotgun miss on a target that was not hit by “the golden BB”. These targets were not knockdowns, just had to be hit. As TO, right behind shooter, I saw he was not really pointed at target, hit the side berm probably 15’+ To right of target. I told him nope, try again. Probably not my call as TO, but was so obvious I just kinda blurted it out. 
 

In OP, if downed target was next to the one missed, I’d give benefit of the doubt. If it was on other end of 6 target array, probably not.  
 

gotta love those golden BBs! 

Engaged does not mean hit.

 

GBB or not.

 

Phantom

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I hope the ROC keeps their ruling SIMPLE.

 

6 shots were required.   6 shots were fired.

Shooter don't see any more targets standing.  

Do you think he/she is gonna stand there on the firing line wondering about it.

Do you think 3 spotters are wondering why they got up at 7:00 a.m., traveled an hour+ to have fun

just to try and decide and cypher all the variables just to award a 5 second penalty or not.

 

Please keep it simple for those of us who volunteer to be good, honest spotters

without having to discuss 'intent', etc....... 

 

I like what Creeker stated about "VERIFABLE" results.

 

..........Widder

 

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6 minutes ago, Hoss said:

In my 9 yrs of shooting, about 7 of which I’ve done my share of TOing, I’ve only called one shotgun miss on a target that was not hit by “the golden BB”. These targets were not knockdowns, just had to be hit. As TO, right behind shooter, I saw he was not really pointed at target, hit the side berm probably 15’+ To right of target. I told him nope, try again. Probably not my call as TO

You are correct. As TO, you do not call misses.

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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

You are correct. As TO, you do not call misses.

You are correct. As I said, I just kinda blurted it out. That was fairly early in my TO career. Hopefully now I would know better. Sometimes the “beep” makes the TO stupid too! 

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So 6 targets, 6+ shots if "needed". Shoots at first target and misses as has been stated. So target engaged but missed. So still needs to shoot at six targets to not have a miss. If only shoots five more than has a miss. Is the consensus that with the first  shot the "intent" applies to the already down target? According to description they were aiming at first target so not possible. The TO would have been able to see that hopefully. 

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