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Question: Winchester W209 vs Federal 209A Primers


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Well, when I opened the components cabinet I sadly discovered that I had finally gotten to the bottom of my Winchester W209 shotgun primer stash.  But, tucked way back in the back I had a stash of Federal 209A primers that I seem to recall buying back a couple of Presidents ago during one of the previous component crunches.

 

And, just to get this out of the way, "No, I will not send a couple of hundred to whomever you are to test them for me!"  :rolleyes::P:lol:

 

I have done a little internet sleuthing and have discovered that the Federal 209A's are a little hotter than the Winchester W209's which can lead to higher chamber pressures, but since we are shooting relatively light loads of BP Substitute, I can't see that as an issue.  Basically, it's like using a magnum primer in a BP cartridge.  Shotgun Primer Substitution

 

So, before I go off and load a bunch of these, does anyone have any experience using the Federal 209A primers?

 

Thanks,

 

Dogmeat

 

 

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To be perfectly frank, I hate the Federal 209 primers.  The last batch I got had many primers were set back in the cup.  In both my Stoegers the firing pins could not reach the primers sufficiently to set them off.  Went to Winchesters with no problem after 900 firings.

DEADWOOD MINER

45575

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Go for it! I have loaded thousands of black powder shells using both federal and Winchester primers. I can't tell the difference. Federal primers are rounder than the Winchester primers and a little softer. My tnt shotgun didn't like the rounder primers, the firing pin would sometimes fail to make solid strikes on them. All my other shotguns had no issues.

Rafe

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Posted (edited)

As usual in a shooting forum, the only consensus is that there is no consensus.  :lol:

 

56 minutes ago, Deadwood Miner, SASS # 45575 said:

To be perfectly frank, I hate the Federal 209 primers.  The last batch I got had many primers were set back in the cup.  In both my Stoegers the firing pins could not reach the primers sufficiently to set them off.  Went to Winchesters with no problem after 900 firings.

DEADWOOD MINER

45575

 

I will have to take a look at that.  My wife shoots a Stoeger but I replaced the firing pins with ones from Long Hunter years ago so maybe that will help that issue.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Go for it! I have loaded thousands of black powder shells using both federal and Winchester primers. I can't tell the difference. Federal primers are rounder than the Winchester primers and a little softer. My tnt shotgun didn't like the rounder primers, the firing pin would sometimes fail to make solid strikes on them. All my other shotguns had no issues.

Rafe

 

I shoot a TTN (To be honest, I'm impressed by anyone who shoots TNT! BOOM!!!), so I will have to look at that as well.  I had some issues at first with mine, but it turned out that one of the firing pin springs was hanging up in the hole the pin rides in and a little massaging and it has been fine ever since.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I had a Fed209A fail to fire at EOT but otherwise had success with them.  In the days I used Pyrodex I preferred them for shotgun shells.

 

We have always used Win 209s, and to be honest, we have had a couple of those fail to fire over the last 20 years as well.  Usually, a second hit and it goes off, but it is still rare.  Never did sort out the problem.

 

43 minutes ago, Hogleg Hunter said:

With APP I use what I have or can get. I picked up 5,00 Fiochi 209's so that's what I'm using at the moment.

 

Hogleg

 

Until this last round of chaos, I never had an issue getting Winchester 209s.  Sometimes a little more expensive than others, but this will be a first for us with the the Federals.  Probably just have to load up a box of them and try them out on sidematch day.

 

 

 

Thanks to everyone for their replies, and I will continue to check back to see if there are more, but duty calls and there is grass to kill! (Oops, I mean mow! B))

 

434201D800000578-4790056-The_boy_complet

Edited by Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L
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I had a whole brick that I had problems with.Went to Winchesters after that.I'll check & see iff I still got that Lot #

                                                                                                                                                                                      Largo

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I used to do a lot of trapshooting.  Went through tens of thousands of Federal primers with no remembered hiccups with the 209a.  

Im still loading them in my cowboy 12ga with my lighter trap loads.  My Stoeger hasn’t had any issues.  However, I’m not shooting BP. However I do have federals for my BP muzzleloader. 

 

Fwiw, My trap loads we interchanged whatever primer we could buy cheapest. Federals and Winchester’s were the most reliable.

Edited by Renegade Plowboy
Darn automiscorrect
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So far---I have had no issues with the Fed. 209A's. I mostly use them for BP, but can't tell any difference between them and Winchester or Chedite.

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Just to add, I just measured the distance from the rim of the primer to the top of the cup for a Win 209 and a Fed 209A using a hand dial caliper and there is a difference.

 

Win 209s were about .003-.005" recessed and the Fed 209As were about .010-.012" recessed.  Not a lot, but certainly enough to cause issues with some shotguns.

 

(Note: This was done by hand on a small selection of randomly selected primers.  YMMV ;)

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45 minutes ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

Just to add, I just measured the distance from the rim of the primer to the top of the cup for a Win 209 and a Fed 209A using a hand dial caliper and there is a difference.

 

Win 209s were about .003-.005" recessed and the Fed 209As were about .010-.012" recessed.  Not a lot, but certainly enough to cause issues with some shotguns.

 

(Note: This was done by hand on a small selection of randomly selected primers.  YMMV ;)

We discovered the Winchester 97 I got Bdoc does not like the deeper set Federal 209a 

I like using the hotter Federals for my BP loads I’d like to think I’m getting a more complete burn of the powder. Maybe this is off track thinking.

 

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You won’t have any issues using them in light loads. As mentioned and you measured, some shotguns with short pins may have issues. I stopped using them for that reason.

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I have only used Federal 209s with my BP and Black MZ shotgun loads....here I was thinking for the past 3 years that they were the preferred primer like the Federals for pistol/rifle!
Never had any issues with my Baikal or Stoger!

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If you try Cowboy Fast Draw and your gun is a Ruger don't use Federal 209 primers.  The cylinder will not rotate after firing.  The Federal primers are too soft so the cup bulges which fills the gap between the cylinder & recoil shield.  The primer doesn't generate enough pressure to flatten the bulge against the recoil shield.

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I personally never seen a performance difference in any load with different primers. 

Only  harder primers with light springs

Might Not Go Bang  ! 

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Thanks to all the respondents!  As I actually had two different vintages of Federal 209A primers, a couple hundred in the red sleeve...

 

e42da3a735fd275e89116f56db08d2d5

 

and a bunch more in the newer blue sleeve...

 

federal_shotshell_primers_100_pack_fed-2

 

 

Other that the potential fail to fire issue due to the deeper recessed primer cup, there appears to be minimal risk to using these so I have decided to reload a box of 25 with each (marked appropriately) and run a few at the Delaware State Match on side-match day.  If they run fine there, then it's game on.  If I have issues, then it will be back to the drawing board (or reloading bench as the case may be.)

 

I may possibly even order a set of these longer SlixPin firing pins from Long Hunter as a backup.  Heck, they are cheaper than a box of Primers!  :P  :lol:

photo1-500x500.JPG

 

I will post the results of my testing in about two weeks.

 

Thanks Again!

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I do have problems with some lots of Federal 209A primers being hit by my TTN shotguns.  After I put in a set of SlixSprings pins in one of them, that TTN has not found a lot which has failed to fire.  Put a flat edge across the primer face - if you find a big gap, be careful with that lot of primers.  Or use the Winchester or Cheddite primers, which have much flatter faces that seem to be easier for the factory to control the seating depth of the primer cup within the battery cup (outer steel shell) of the primer assembly.

 

good luck, GJ

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4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I do have problems with some lots of Federal 209A primers being hit by my TTN shotguns.  After I put in a set of SlixSprings pins in one of them, that TTN has not found a lot which has failed to fire.  Put a flat edge across the primer face - if you find a big gap, be careful with that lot of primers.  Or use the Winchester or Cheddite primers, which have much flatter faces that seem to be easier for the factory to control the seating depth of the primer cup within the battery cup (outer steel shell) of the primer assembly.

 

good luck, GJ

Joe, where did you find Slix Springs for your TTN? Are they still available?

 

Whoops, you said SlixSprings pins, not springs. Never mind. Wish there was such a thing as reduced power hammer springs though.

 

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783
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